Liverpool FC Forum

[Rush Job]

I love it when stu logs on.

[Jimmy the Weasel]

cause he has to slag off or bring up kuyt at least once during a debate , think its some sort of unwritten rule for the anti kuyts

It's another unwritten rule that you have to dismiss anything negative about Kuyt on the basis it's written by one of these "anti Kuyts" you label people...

[Fo Dne]

I hear that Wengers now going around saying "if you don't believe me ....just ask Stu"

 

[Fo Dne]

There was an interview with Arsene Wenger on the show, and when they asked him about his famous quote (about developing a player is like building a foundation of a house), he mentioned that there are 4 stages of football:

Technical (feet) - Ball skills
Physical (body) - Strength, agility, fitnesse
Mind (head) - Tactical
Mentality (brain) - mental strength, confidence

But what interested me the most, is that Arsene Wenger, as a known manager who enjoys finding young talent, specified these into timelines (technical age 7-14, physical age 14-17, mind age 18-19, mentality 18-21), and most surprisingly, he says that players who cannot develop technical skills by the age of 14 does not have a chance of playing football.

Maybe Wenger agrees with Stu ?

David Bentley? Arsene Wenger calls it right a lot of the time, but he also calls it wrong. Jermaine Pennant? I'll leave that one to you lot ! 

Francis Jeffers , arsenal paid 8 million for him and he was a flop . Adebayor is a average player , he was in good form last season and that was about it . He does not deserve to be playing for a top 4 club and ask any arsenal fan they will agree with me that wenger was stupid not to accept barca's 30 million offer for him . They don't rate him at all and this season is further proof of that .

Adebayor's average yet scored 20 odd goals last season, Kuyt's a good player and scored 3 league goals.

Lmapard scored a sh!te load and yet you don'tt rate him . Contradict yourself Stu . There's nothing spectucular about him and why are you comparing him with kuyt? He was never in the argument to begin with

Where did I say I didn't rate Lampard lad?

I've never said Lampards anything other than a good player.

*disclaimer, what I shout about players during a game does not count as judgement and Stevie should snap him coz he's *

[Fo Dne]

cause he has to slag off or bring up kuyt at least once during a debate , think its some sort of unwritten rule for the anti kuyts

Do us a favour? Point out where I slagged off "Dirky boy" lad.

Do you really want to have sex with him or something? You're obbsessed. I'd be worried if I was Kuyt.

[Emerald Red]

Thiery Henry , absolute legend , wasn't performing at juventus , came to arsenal , trained hard and improved a sh!te load , arguably the best striker ever to grace the league

Yeah, and with that example I think Sabre's reason for starting the thread has been vindicated. Who'd have seen Henry, with his poor first two seasons at Arsenal, all of a sudden transform into a world class player that he is? Was it his "attributes" or was it the system? I dunno. I'll have to consult the all knowing, all seeing fountain of wisdom on that one - Football Manager.

[Fo Dne]

Thiery Henry , absolute legend , wasn't performing at juventus , came to arsenal , trained hard and improved a sh!te load , arguably the best striker ever to grace the league

Yeah, and with that example I think Sabre's reason for starting the thread has been vindicated. Who'd have seen Henry, with his poor first two seasons at Arsenal, all of a sudden transform into a world class player that he is? Was it his "attributes" or was it the system? I dunno. I'll have to consult the all knowing, all seeing fountain of wisdom on that one - Football Manager.

Oh what a suprise it is to again see you use the "dickhead myth, as an arguement.

Thierry Henry, 1999-2000 season, his first in the premier league and english football.

Games: 48 (31 in league)
Goals: 26 (17 in league)
Assists: 9 (9 in league)

Thierry Henry, 2000-2001 season, his second.

Games: 53 (35 in the league)
Goals: 22 (17 in the league)
Assists: 3 (3 in the league)

Arsenal finished second in his first season and got to a UEFA cup final. In his woefull second season they again finished second place.

The dickhead myth put to bed. The tools who use this arguement say it because he failed to score in something stupid like his first 5 or 6 games and make it out he was for a hole season then all of a sudden become a world class talent.

Its complete and utter fuckwittery of the highest order by some of the most clueless people to ever talk about the sport.

Such as the above poster.

[account deleted by request]

Yeah.... but when you compare Henry's first season to Kuyt's you can see he had problems mate

[Emerald Red]

Thiery Henry , absolute legend , wasn't performing at juventus , came to arsenal , trained hard and improved a sh!te load , arguably the best striker ever to grace the league

Yeah, and with that example I think Sabre's reason for starting the thread has been vindicated. Who'd have seen Henry, with his poor first two seasons at Arsenal, all of a sudden transform into a world class player that he is? Was it his "attributes" or was it the system? I dunno. I'll have to consult the all knowing, all seeing fountain of wisdom on that one - Football Manager.

Oh what a suprise it is to again see you use the "dickhead myth, as an arguement.

Thierry Henry, 1999-2000 season, his first in the premier league and english football.

Games: 48 (31 in league)
Goals: 26 (17 in league)
Assists: 9 (9 in league)

Thierry Henry, 2000-2001 season, his second.

Games: 53 (35 in the league)
Goals: 22 (17 in the league)
Assists: 3 (3 in the league)

Arsenal finished second in his first season and got to a UEFA cup final. In his woefull second season they again finished second place.

The dickhead myth put to bed. The tools who use this arguement say it because he failed to score in something stupid like his first 5 or 6 games and make it out he was for a hole season then all of a sudden become a world class talent.

Its complete and utter fuckwittery of the highest order by some of the most clueless people to ever talk about the sport.

Such as the above poster.

STOP



































TALKING










































































BOLLOCKS,



Now, if you excuse me, I'm off to sort out some of my players' "attributes" in Fifa. I wonder if I improve them to what I think they should be in real life. Hmmmm.

[Number 9]

Thiery Henry , absolute legend , wasn't performing at juventus , came to arsenal , trained hard and improved a sh!te load , arguably the best striker ever to grace the league

Yeah, and with that example I think Sabre's reason for starting the thread has been vindicated. Who'd have seen Henry, with his poor first two seasons at Arsenal, all of a sudden transform into a world class player that he is? Was it his "attributes" or was it the system? I dunno. I'll have to consult the all knowing, all seeing fountain of wisdom on that one - Football Manager.

PM STU he knows everything!!

[Emerald Red]

Thiery Henry , absolute legend , wasn't performing at juventus , came to arsenal , trained hard and improved a sh!te load , arguably the best striker ever to grace the league

Yeah, and with that example I think Sabre's reason for starting the thread has been vindicated. Who'd have seen Henry, with his poor first two seasons at Arsenal, all of a sudden transform into a world class player that he is? Was it his "attributes" or was it the system? I dunno. I'll have to consult the all knowing, all seeing fountain of wisdom on that one - Football Manager.

PM STU he knows everything!!

Na. I'm afraid he'll use his Jedi mind trick ability and get me spouting shyte like he does. Yoda ain't got nothin' on him.

[Fo Dne]

STOP



































TALKING










































































BOLLOCKS,



Now, if you excuse me, I'm off to sort out some of my players' "attributes" in Fifa. I wonder if I improve them to what I think they should be in real life. Hmmmm.

Coming from someone who comes on here and makes a stupid statement which is then pointed out to be a bit stupid and gets a cob on because he knows nothing about the game.

[account deleted by request]

I think if you look at players who for one reason or another are forced to change their game i.e. injury, change of position etc you can see obvious changes in their technique.

Owen is another player who added to his game, I never saw him play for the reserves so he may have already shown his heading ability, but certainly when he first came into the first team he seemed to work on his heading and it improved.

[Starbridge42]

Although I haven't posted for some considerable time this thread has most definitely piqued my interest.

Stu, while I respect how steadfastly you maintain your assertion that a player cannot improve I find it very difficult to accept or believe.

Football is a skill-based sport.  Skills can be improved.  That is a fact, talk to anybody who has studied sports science, human movements, exercise science or anything of that nature.
Leaving aside the fact that physical attributes such as speed, power, strength, endurance, agility etc. can all be improved by training, the fact that football is skill-based means that a player can improve.  Anybody can get better, take someone who has never played the game before (who is aged say, 33, well past the age at which you assert players will improve) train them for 6 months and you will see massive improvement.

Your argument that if anyone can improve everyone would be at professional level is flawed and I'll tell you why.
The players who play at the professional level are more naturally gifted, true.  They also have better mentality and reading of the game. Hence they have a higher starting base from which to improve on.  Therefore, any person lacking that natural ability would need to train at such an extreme level to compensate for the lack of ability that their body would not be able to recover from the level of work they would be required to do.  There is also the fact that 99.9% of people lack the determination and dedication to do the training that would be required.  Attitude and mentality is absolutely crucial, especially at the top end of sport where talent is a dime-a-dozen. 
There is also the matter of diminishing returns, the better a player is the less benefit they will get from training, meaning that they need to train longer and harder to see big gains.  That's not to say that gains aren't being made, they are just less noticeable.
Furthermore, yes, football is, as you say, a team sport.  That again makes it harder to assess whether a player has improved, as if another player isn't playing well any gains our sample player has made might not be noticed (or vice versa) that doesn't mean that improvement hasn't occurred. 
There is also a multitude of other factors that will affect a perceived improvement or otherwise (as we only get to see them on game day) such as how much sleep they had the night before, any emotional issues that may be occurring at the time, whether they have taken in an alcohol in the last 36 hours, whether there is any slight illness or niggling injuries that may be hampering them at the time etc.

That is leaving aside the matter of experience, and I cannot accept your argument that a player doesn't improve through experience.  In all sports players/athletes improve with experience.  That's why spinners in cricket don't hit their peak till much later, again in cricket that's why players like Denis Lillee or Ray Lindwall weren't really at their best till later in their careers.  In rowing, James Tomkins, Xeno Muller, Steven Redgrave etc. all became better racers as they pushed on.  Duncan Free didn't win his first Olympic Gold until he was 35!  Now rowing is a very tough sport physically and at 35 you are not in the prime of your physical life. Yet he was mentally more experienced and technically better that in his youth, hence he was a better racer.

You might think that examples from other sports are irrelevant.  However, they are not, as they illustrate they way in which in all sports experience can play a huge role.

I haven't even touched on the physical side of training which is an obvious area in which a player/athlete can improve.

Stu, I respectfully disagree with your earlier posts for the reasons outlined above.

Cheers all
Sam

[LFC2007]

^^^ Isn't that exactly how you wish everyone would post? ^^^

Top post, agree with all of it.


Players can improve relative to their natural ability, that doesn't mean a player can 'gain something they never had in the first place', it means they can refine and realise the true extent of their natural ability. Also, if training is designed merely to improve consistency of a given skill, is that added consistency not a demonstration of improvement?

I think it is.

Whether or not the player has the natural ability in the first place is a tough call to make. The capacity to be good enough must be there, and that's the key point. To realise that ability requires application, desire and also factors beyond the player's control i.e. his manager, teammates etc. The point is; the reason certain players don't succeed isn't necessarily down to a lack of natural ability. Although, someone like Traore, for example, never had the ability to be consistently successful at our level. The natural ability just wasn't there, there was nothing to refine. Someone like Joe Cole, however, did have the natural ability to succeed, and with application, desire, and quality players/managers around him, he's succeeded. He's refined his game - which is partly down to training - and that's allowed him to realise his potential.