Liverpool FC Forum

by **Kukilon** » Thu Oct 09, 2008 5:04 pm

Everything can be learned and forgotten the problem with attributes such as pace, acceleration etc are that to change those you may have to change your whole physique and that is not something that happens at the top flight. I was quite a slow player when I started playing football and up to the age of 17. With hindsight I probably trained to much endurance. I quit playing and started lifting weights and started running with a friend of mine and three years later when i started playing football again I was suddenly the fastest/quickest player in the same team. I was a clinical finisher back in the days but much of it never came back. You can a predeposition for certain attributes and skills but everything can be improved.

by **GYBS** » Thu Oct 09, 2008 5:05 pm

Vagner Loves scoring record isnt too bad for his club and got 5 in 20 for brazil .

by **Yooj Bigullz** » Thu Oct 09, 2008 5:14 pm

GYBS wrote:Vagner Loves scoring record isnt too bad for his club and got 5 in 20 for brazil .

Would you take him over Kuyt?

by **GYBS** » Thu Oct 09, 2008 5:16 pm

Yooj Bigullz wrote:
GYBS wrote:Vagner Loves scoring record isnt too bad for his club and got 5 in 20 for brazil .

Would you take him over Kuyt?

no idea not seen enough of him to judge only a few clips and highlights .

by **Yooj Bigullz** » Thu Oct 09, 2008 5:18 pm

Nice side-step

Well fielded!!

by **GYBS** » Thu Oct 09, 2008 5:19 pm

Yooj Bigullz wrote: Nice side-step

Well fielded!!

Is it a sidestep ? i havent seen enough of him to judge on wether or not i would prefer him over kuyt ? and why bring kuyt into it in the first place ?

by **Toffeehater** » Thu Oct 09, 2008 5:32 pm

Thiery Henry , absolute legend , wasn't performing at juventus , came to arsenal , trained hard and improved a sh!te load , arguably the best striker ever to grace the league

by **GYBS** » Thu Oct 09, 2008 5:35 pm

Didi - was a decent Attack Mid at Newcastle turned into a world class holding mid for us

by **HighasaKUYT** » Thu Oct 09, 2008 5:41 pm

You get loads of players who come good dont u, some dont get to be great til ther a lot older than others like ian wright, thierry henry yeah, xabi alonso no one hed heard of then he came to us and was great, im struggling to think of many atm ill have a think though

usually players are good from when they are young tho

by **NANNY RED** » Thu Oct 09, 2008 6:38 pm

For me the one player who got better and better was Essien. The lad played mainly right back and only got to play in midfield through injury. He wasnt a regular in the team either , But this lad is superb also playing cental defence. Left back right back . Holding or attacking midfield and hes played in all of them positions while at Chelsea. Hes also developed great physical strengh.

So you could look at it if he never got his chance cause someone was injured at playin in the middle of the park would he have been a great right back.
How many players are there who we think are good in the position that they have played or are playing and yet could be world class playing in a different position.
Ray Kennerdy spring to mind with me

by **Fo Dne** » Thu Oct 09, 2008 6:40 pm

maguskwt wrote:
Players attributes don't improve with age. Players don't even become something they aren't. They can learn systems, learn how to play in a particular system, become well drilled and become more confident and get to know their team mates better but they do not improve attributes. Occassionally they will physically develop late, but thats about as far it goes.

in other words their attributes DID improve... you can call it what you want stu but players do develop... it's just a matter of wording... you use the word 'attribute' very cleverly... so you should define what 'attribute' means... if ppl say that gerrard's become a better player... you would say he already had these attributes and just knew how to use them better instead of become a 'better player'... it's just a matter of wording and definition...

Players who spend hours trying to improve and are really determined to improve would improve.

It will never happen, it has never happened.

isn't that contradicting yourself? anyway david beckham wouldn't have become a free kick specialist if he didn't practice alot. his crosses are so consistent because he did practice alot. he did become a better player... let's take michael owen... he used to just use his pace to outrun defenders and score with a simple chip... in his mid twenties, after he got his hamstring injury and lost a yard or two, he developed other aspects of his finishing... anticipation, scoring with left foot, right foot as well as with his head... he did become a better finisher... but you can always say he already had this attribute of finishing and just developed on how to use them better...

am i missing something here? sometimes we're arguing but actually we agree on the same thing...

Quite simple really. An attribute is a particular skill. I wouldn't say Gerrard's improved any of his technical or tactical attributes since he broke through into the side. The only things that have changed are his understanding of the systems he's used in and his physical attributes improved due to his complete change in body shape and size.

The same with Owen, he already had the attibutes there, finishing and anticipation are completely different attributes. He changed his style of play because he had to and lets be quite honest, he's nowhere near as good as he was. At his best he was unplayable and one of the top 5 players in the world, now, although still a class act, he's nowhere near that level. Why? Because he lost one of his main attributes and the others weren't good enough to accomadate losing that. He had to become more of a poacher, but he still has the same vision, the same instinct, the same control and passing ability, he's still very careful with his passing and very crisp.

As I've said, players fit into a system, but as individual's they don't learn to have better attributes like passing, touch and technique. It just doesn't happen. You either have it, or you don't. Its as simple as that. I'm not disputing practice can help you achieve a consistency, it clearly does which is why players suffer when they don't train, but don't tell me if you put Traore on the pitch for 8 hours a day and told him to work on his touch he'd come out with a decent one, because he quite simply wouldn't.

by **Fo Dne** » Thu Oct 09, 2008 6:42 pm

Yooj Bigullz wrote:
Fo Dne wrote:
Yooj Bigullz wrote:I agree largely with that, Fo Dne. For the record, I dont think Lampard is special by any stretch. The system and personnel help a lot, no doubt. I was just making the point I think he improved over time, little things which he could improve, and that has made him a good player instead of staying an average player

Well I disagree because I think he's always been good, no more, no less.

You're obviously wrong because you don't manage at a top club. Tell me about Cheyrou...

He's the next Zidane don't ya know?

To be fair, his brother looked pretty handy, maybe we signed the wrong one?

by **Fo Dne** » Thu Oct 09, 2008 6:46 pm

NANNY RED wrote:For me the one player who got better and better was Essien. The lad played mainly right back and only got to play in midfield through injury. He wasnt a regular in the team either , But this lad is superb also playing cental defence. Left back right back . Holding or attacking midfield and hes played in all of them positions while at Chelsea. Hes also developed great physical strengh.

So you could look at it if he never got his chance cause someone was injured at playin in the middle of the park would he have been a great right back.
How many players are there who we think are good in the position that they have played or are playing and yet could be world class playing in a different position.
Ray Kennerdy spring to mind with me

Behave Nanny, he was an established world class player for about two seasons before he came to Chelsea. As much as hate the c**t and think he's a horrible, nasty thug, pretty much like Roy Keane, you can't dispute he's one of the players in the world in his position.

Apparently, had we sold Gerrard, Essien would have been the replacement.

by **Yooj Bigullz** » Thu Oct 09, 2008 6:50 pm

How about Richard Dunne?

Absolutely awful a few years back, plenty rate him now (not me though)

by **Fo Dne** » Thu Oct 09, 2008 6:51 pm

Rush Job wrote:But mate only one of them is still at the club and the other four hardly got a kick.
I suppose you could say we should never had signed them in the first place and you`d obviously have a point, but they were just squad fillers at the time.
And as for Lucas, its not just Rafa that rates him, has he not been in a senior Brazil squad?

Babel's not upto it, Dossena's not upto it (another :censored:

signing), loads of others too. Its not been one or two, its been at least two or three a season. Which is a unacceptable.

No-one will ever get it right all the time, everyone will make a mistake, everyone will make a few mistakes, the problem is, Rafa has a pretty average record at best, at very best. Average is probably being kind aswell.

Also, I couldn't give a toss if Alex Ferguson, Rafa Benitez, the Brazil manager and Bob Paisley (

) were sat infront of me telling me Lucas was a good player. I'd have absoloutely none of it. He's rubbish and I've seen better players on a Sunday and Saturday in the leagues around Liverpool, thats the end of it as far as I'm concerned.

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