Liverpool FC Forum

[LFC2007]

I really couldn't give two hoots what players think of themselves either and I couldn't give a toss what their coaches think. Theres to many people in the game who don't understand the basics anymore hence the reason the game has gone the way it has with less and less good young players coming through.

Lampard being the example, he's always scored goals and been decent, now he's got a license to go and maximise those strengths because he has players around him to do the alround midfield work which he struggles with. He's not improved at all and thats why he always looks completely out of place in an England shirt.

I believe he's scored twice as many goals at Chelsea as he did at West Ham, he's the record Premier League goalscorer for a midfielder and he was voted second in the European/World player of the year awards. Now, I'm not saying he's world class, or anything like as good as Gerrard or Scholes etc, but he is an excellent player in my opinion. He played a crucial role in Chelsea's title victories under Mourinho - who obviously rated him otherwise he wouldn't have tried to sign him for Inter. And if opinions of top coaches count in your assessment of Barton, they apply here too.

[GYBS]

For me the one player who got better and better was Essien. The lad played mainly right back and only got to play in midfield through injury. He wasnt a regular in the team either , But this lad is superb also playing cental defence. Left back right back . Holding or attacking midfield and hes played in all of them positions while at Chelsea. Hes also developed great physical strengh.

So you could look at it if he never got his chance cause someone was injured at playin in the middle of the park would he have been a great right back.
How many players are there who we think are good in the position that they have played or are playing and yet could be world class playing in a different position.
Ray Kennerdy spring to mind with me

think essien is one of chelseas best players , superb in midfield ,right back , attacking holding seems to have the whole package .

[metalhead]

Essien was always a quality player, ask any lyon fan, he was bloody good. I remember watching him against mancs in the CL while back when he was at Lyon, he was immense.

[Fo Dne]

I believe he's scored twice as many goals at Chelsea as he did at West Ham, he's the record Premier League goalscorer for a midfielder and he was voted second in the European/World player of the year awards. Now, I'm not saying he's world class, or anything like as good as Gerrard or Scholes etc, but he is an excellent player in my opinion. He played a crucial role in Chelsea's title victories under Mourinho - who obviously rated him otherwise he wouldn't have tried to sign him for Inter. And if opinions of top coaches count in your assessment of Barton, they apply here too.

Oh right, he's scored twice as many goals, and that wouldn't be anything to do with playing a completely different role or with better players then no? That couldn't possibly be anything at all to do with it? The fact he's playing further forward in a system designed to get the best out of those attributes and eradicate his weaknesses has nothing to do with it?

To be quite honest, the fact he was voted anywhere in the European player of the year is a complete and utter disgrace and an injustice to real players with talent. I couldn't give a toss if in your opinion he's an excellent player either, because the simple facts are, he isn't. Like I've said, there are alot of players far better than he could ever dream of being.

As for the opinions of top coaches, I clearly don't ever use that as an arguement. I was making a statement, thats all. I wouldn't turn around as my sole arguement and say "well Benitez thinks differently and he's a professional so you're wrong" because quite frankly I can make my own mind up and I know the difference in an average player, a good player and a world class player when I see one.

The fact you even consider Lampard to be an excellent player is rediculous. Whats he excellent at? Hitting the target from 20 yards? His movement's excellent I'll give him that and he has the stamina to keep going for ninety minutes.

He's very average in terms of tackling, and pace, he's got average strength (in premiership terms), he's a good passer with a good working brain, but he's not top class in this area and say these are amoungst his better points. He's got nowhere near the touch, vision or passing ability of someone like Alonso or Scholes.

The only attribute he has in his locker which is top class is probably his movement/anticipation of a chance. Thats about it. The rest of his attributes are average to very good, the majority being somewhere in the middle of those.

[GYBS]

Essien was always a quality player, ask any lyon fan, he was bloody good. I remember watching him against mancs in the CL while back when he was at Lyon, he was immense.

Yeah Lyon certainly didnt want him to leave and made sure chelsea paid a lot of money for him but well worth it imo

[GYBS]

Doesnt thou attributes he has that are world class make him a top player then ? his movement and awareness and finding space and finishing skills for a midfielder ? hate the guy as much as anyone but by god he proves he is a top class player for chelsea week in week out and also for england on the big stage a number of times.
scholes tackling and pace and passing isnt that great as well but the same as lampard his vision and awareness and shooting skills are top class

[LegBarnes]

One of the recurring debates in newkit is when people see a Babel or a Sissoko and say, He'll be the new Viera, or the new John Barnes.

Then someone, generally Stu, points out that player don't become what they're not.

I agree this sentence, but at some extent. There are aspects of football that cannot be improved. Others can.

I remember Toshack in one of his training sessions. He went mad at some point and made a player hit the ball against a wall and bounce it back to improve his control. Controls can be improved with more training. What you cannot develop is more pace when you haven't, or a killing instict when you haven't it. You can't become a player with great vision neither if you aren't.

In that, Stu is right.

But I've seen far too many players evolving into a good player through experience. Experience changes your mindset, makes you learn a lot of things and that's what I want to debate with Stu and everyone else, with some instances:

Riera: Did many members call it wrong? Perhaps not. Perhaps they just described what they saw at that point, and perhaps they just have seen an improved player and a different player.

The Riera that came from Girondins was a different player, and even I think that the Riera that came from his first Manchester City experience, was a different player. You still haven't seen his stong left foot in shooting, but you shall see it. And that's something I didn't see him using in the early stages of his career. The composure with the ball, and having a "clear mind" to not lose the ball is something he has improved. He'll never be fast though.

Reina

This keeper wasn't good enough for Barcelona. The Madrid fans chanted "Reina no es un portero, es una chica de cabaret" (Reina is not a keeper, but a Cabaret Girl"), to comment his many mistakes. Through experience he has become much better than Valdes, the current Barcelona keeper.

Carraguer

I discussed it once with Stu. In his opinion he was misused before Rafa, but doesn't experience and a learning player also help?

Gerrard

I think he's a good learner. I think he's clever enough to jump to Spain no matter if he goes to Barcelona and Madrid and adapt. IMHO, he's a better player than 4 years ago.

Sinama Pongolle

For many not good enough, now he's a French international.

So, the opinions I'd like to read from you

* In Which current or past Liverpool players did you see a clear evolution thanks to experience

* What can be improved through experience or a proper teaching manager? What cannot?

* Bearing in mind the previous point, what can we expect of some young players like Babel?

Players attributes don't improve with age. Players don't even become something they aren't. They can learn systems, learn how to play in a particular system, become well drilled and become more confident and get to know their team mates better but they do not improve attributes. Occassionally they will physically develop late, but thats about as far it goes. Its what happened with Stevie and Ronaldo. If you compare Gerrard and Carragher now, to what they were, they still have the same weaknesses and strengths. Stevie still (at 28) has a tendancy to hit long passes that aren't on, 10 years after pointing this out you'd think one of the top five players in the world would correct this...

If they could, every player would get on the pitch and work on ever aspect of their game. Players who spend hours trying to improve and are really determined to improve would improve.

It will never happen, it has never happened. You either have that attribute, or you don't. You don't gain it, you don't learn it after your development stage. End of.

Players like Babel, Lucas, Sissoko etc can be given all the time in the world to adapt. They will never be good enough.

lol you been playing football manager to long Stu Your right I can't ever seem to get there stats up when they hit 21. PMSL

[Fo Dne]

Doesnt thou attributes he has that are world class make him a top player then ? his movement and awareness and finding space and finishing skills for a midfielder ? hate the guy as much as anyone but by god he proves he is a top class player for chelsea week in week out and also for england on the big stage a number of times.
scholes tackling and pace and passing isnt that great as well but the same as lampard his vision and awareness and shooting skills are top class

What complete and utter rubbish, as stated for reasons above.

[GYBS]

why do you just dismiss peoples opinions with no respect of them at all . why bother being on a forum if your just gping to have an arrogant attitude like that and just call everyones opinions rubbish - fine disagree with them but leave out all the utter rubbish stuff .

[Fo Dne]

why do you just dismiss peoples opinions with no respect of them at all . why bother being on a forum if your just gping to have an arrogant attitude like that and just call everyones opinions rubbish - fine disagree with them but leave out all the utter rubbish stuff .

Because I'd already covered what you're asking. Every thread I seem to go round in circle's repeating myself over and over for people who are ignoring, or too comprehend the reasoning behind anything. If you don't agree, suit yourself, but stop trying to get me to repeat myself. Its boring the fuck out of me!

Read the posts before, everything you just asked in your previous is already answered.

[GYBS]

So how can someone who is not top class score so many goals from midfield for both club and country in both the prem cl , also be involved in pretty much every single decent chelsea performance and goal . His first touch is top class and you can see that every game you watch him , his first touch helps him score as many goals as he does , the proof is in the pudding . Is it all luck ?

Lampard has proved himself one of the best in europe in his role and the facts are there to show that . you cant deny that .

[Fo Dne]

So how can someone who is not top class score so many goals from midfield for both club and country in both the prem cl , also be involved in pretty much every single decent chelsea performance and goal . His first touch is top class and you can see that every game you watch him , his first touch helps him score as many goals as he does , the proof is in the pudding . Is it all luck ?

Lampard has proved himself one of the best in europe in his role and the facts are there to show that . you cant deny that .

Are you for real?

[LFC2007]

I believe he's scored twice as many goals at Chelsea as he did at West Ham, he's the record Premier League goalscorer for a midfielder and he was voted second in the European/World player of the year awards. Now, I'm not saying he's world class, or anything like as good as Gerrard or Scholes etc, but he is an excellent player in my opinion. He played a crucial role in Chelsea's title victories under Mourinho - who obviously rated him otherwise he wouldn't have tried to sign him for Inter. And if opinions of top coaches count in your assessment of Barton, they apply here too.

Oh right, he's scored twice as many goals, and that wouldn't be anything to do with playing a completely different role or with better players then no? That couldn't possibly be anything at all to do with it? The fact he's playing further forward in a system designed to get the best out of those attributes and eradicate his weaknesses has nothing to do with it?

To be quite honest, the fact he was voted anywhere in the European player of the year is a complete and utter disgrace and an injustice to real players with talent. I couldn't give a toss if in your opinion he's an excellent player either, because the simple facts are, he isn't. Like I've said, there are alot of players far better than he could ever dream of being.

As for the opinions of top coaches, I clearly don't ever use that as an arguement. I was making a statement, thats all. I wouldn't turn around as my sole arguement and say "well Benitez thinks differently and he's a professional so you're wrong" because quite frankly I can make my own mind up and I know the difference in an average player, a good player and a world class player when I see one.

The fact you even consider Lampard to be an excellent player is rediculous. Whats he excellent at? Hitting the target from 20 yards? His movement's excellent I'll give him that and he has the stamina to keep going for ninety minutes.

He's very average in terms of tackling, and pace, he's got average strength (in premiership terms), he's a good passer with a good working brain, but he's not top class in this area and say these are amoungst his better points. He's got nowhere near the touch, vision or passing ability of someone like Alonso or Scholes.

The only attribute he has in his locker which is top class is probably his movement/anticipation of a chance. Thats about it. The rest of his attributes are average to very good, the majority being somewhere in the middle of those.

Of course playing with better players has enhanced his ability score, but he still has to get in the position and execute the shot. As for the system he played in at Chelsea, yes, having Makele behind him helped, as did having Joe Cole and Robben either side, but he still played a crucial role in a title winning side. He wasn't carried by the rest of the team - he scored 13 goals and got 16 assists in 04/05. Goals aren't the be all and end all in football, but I'd like to think they're very important  . He's excellent at supporting the play, he has a good range of passing, he has a very good strike on him - with both left and right feet, he's always looking to get into dangerous positions, to link up play, to score and make assists. I certainly don't think someones like Jimmy Bullard could've replaced him in the Chelsea side that won the league 3 years ago and been as effective.

As for using the opinions of top coaches to back up your opinions, you did so with Barton earlier:

It also isn't popular on here, but another " common opinion" (which I share through my own beliefs) in the football world amoungst coaches and manager is the alround quality of Joey Barton. He's held in very high regard by ALOT of top managers, players and coaches and people who've taught him from a young age but there are obvious (and 100% correct) doubts about his attitude and mental state.

I'm saying, the opinions of those managers who voted Lampard best midfielder in the UCL last year, along with all the other the top managers who praise him, the fact that Mourinho thinks he's one of the best midfielders in Europe, all count as well. It works both ways.

[GYBS]

So how can someone who is not top class score so many goals from midfield for both club and country in both the prem cl , also be involved in pretty much every single decent chelsea performance and goal . His first touch is top class and you can see that every game you watch him , his first touch helps him score as many goals as he does , the proof is in the pudding . Is it all luck ?

Lampard has proved himself one of the best in europe in his role and the facts are there to show that . you cant deny that .

Are you for real?

What is incorrect about my post then ? he performs week in week out for them constantly scoring or being involved in ther best play . his records are there to be seen as proof .

His fellow pros and managers agree his up there with the best .

You cant get bigger praise than that .

[Bad Bob]

Also, I couldn't give a toss if Alex Ferguson, Rafa Benitez, the Brazil manager and Bob Paisley ( ) were sat infront of me telling me Lucas was a good player. I'd have absoloutely none of it. He's rubbish and I've seen better players on a Sunday and Saturday in the leagues around Liverpool, thats the end of it as far as I'm concerned.

See, you say things like that, Stu, after coming out with comments like this:

It also isn't popular on here, but another " common opinion" (which I share through my own beliefs) in the football world amoungst coaches and manager is the alround quality of Joey Barton. He's held in very high regard by ALOT of top managers, players and coaches and people who've taught him from a young age but there are obvious (and 100% correct) doubts about his attitude and mental state.

I've actually heard people (who's opinions have deserved respect) compare him to Roy Keane, personally I think thats a bit far fetched but I can see where they come from.

See, I can't help but see a massive inconsistency here.  On the one hand, you lambast people for using the "if he's good enough for..." argument to defend players while, on the other, you ask people to take your word for it that Barton's a quality player because there are people out there, "who's opinions have deserved respect," that say as much.  It's using the exact same argument from authority that you're criticizing others for doing, except you're not even naming your authorities.  Not especially convincing, that.