Liverpool FC Forum

[metalhead]

I think that most young highly potential players, don't tend to use some of their abilities in the right way (when they break into the first team) maybe because they lack experience, hence they improve once they mature by starting to use the abilities they already have more at the right time on the pitch. An example, C.Ronaldo, he always had ability, he showed it in some glimpses with the Mancs in his first season, but he was inconsistant with them.

[Yooj Bigullz]

Fo Dne, the list of players you prefer is irrelevant here (I presume Boateng is a joke?). The point i was making is Lampard improved as a player. I agree he's a good midfielder in the Prem, but he took what he got and improved as much as he could. His passing is better, he's always had a decent shot. He's also improved his fitness because he was fat at West Ham

[metalhead]

anyway, heres my list of 6 players whom i know who has improved.
1) kolo toure
2) diego forlan
3) jon obi mikel
4) mirko vucinic
5) glen johnson
6) tim cahill

I don't rate mikel.

[maypaxvobiscum]

anyway, heres my list of 6 players whom i know who has improved.
1) kolo toure
2) diego forlan
3) jon obi mikel
4) mirko vucinic
5) glen johnson
6) tim cahill

I don't rate mikel.

shuttup you flower killer     
i think mikel has improve for reasons i stated a page before

[account deleted by request]

One of the recurring debates in newkit is when people see a Babel or a Sissoko and say, He'll be the new Viera, or the new John Barnes.

Then someone, generally Stu, points out that player don't become what they're not.

I agree this sentence, but at some extent. There are aspects of football that cannot be improved. Others can.

I remember Toshack in one of his training sessions. He went mad at some point and made a player hit the ball against a wall and bounce it back to improve his control. Controls can be improved with more training. What you cannot develop is more pace when you haven't, or a killing instict when you haven't it. You can't become a player with great vision neither if you aren't.

In that, Stu is right.

But I've seen far too many players evolving into a good player through experience. Experience changes your mindset, makes you learn a lot of things and that's what I want to debate with Stu and everyone else, with some instances:

So, the opinions I'd like to read from you

* In Which current or past Liverpool players did you see a clear evolution thanks to experience

* What can be improved through experience or a proper teaching manager? What cannot?

* Bearing in mind the previous point, what can we expect of some young players like Babel?

Isn't that what Sabre was asking though Stu?

[metalhead]

anyway, heres my list of 6 players whom i know who has improved.
1) kolo toure
2) diego forlan
3) jon obi mikel
4) mirko vucinic
5) glen johnson
6) tim cahill

I don't rate mikel.

shuttup you flower killer     
i think mikel has improve for reasons i stated a page before

mikel is still

[Fo Dne]

Fo Dne, the list of players you prefer is irrelevant here (I presume Boateng is a joke?). The point i was making is Lampard improved as a player. I agree he's a good midfielder in the Prem, but he took what he got and improved as much as he could. His passing is better, he's always had a decent shot. He's also improved his fitness because he was fat at West Ham

You presume Boateng's a joke?

Why's that?

As much as I hate to say this, but I will anyway... besides the fact I've rated the lad since he signed for Coventry aswell, he's statistically the best midfielder in the league over the last ten years in terms of passes completed, tackles won, forward passes completed, ground covered and involvement in general team play.

He's a player they use for analysis in coaching courses for these reasons as they teach you about the "importance" of statistics and how to use them. I do however disagree with statistics in the way they don't always tell the complete story.

[Yooj Bigullz]

anyway, heres my list of 6 players whom i know who has improved.
1) kolo toure
2) diego forlan
3) jon obi mikel
4) mirko vucinic
5) glen johnson
6) tim cahill

Is there a distintion between improving, and fulfilling potential? (which I think is what Fo Dne is driving at)

Your people like Messi, Kaka etc with those it was a question of time before the reached the top because the natural ability is so high

Lesser players try and improve upon there technique, work on shooting, tackling etc because it doesn't come as naturally to them

[account deleted by request]

I think its a bit like Stu's alter ego Gordon Ramsey . He was a footballer , and would probably never have become a chef but for injury ending his career. Footballers use their natural abilities, BUT if they get an injury or arn't quite good enough, some have the determination to learn and improve other areas of their game, while most just accept they will never improve and don't.

[Bam]

Stu, I've seen defenders that when they were 26, you could catch them breaking the off side line 30 times a season. I've seen the same players getting that right with 30.

I've seen a player losing pace with age, but when pressed, having more composure, being less nervous with the ball, getting that decissions right. It's not attributes, it's decissions, and sometimes mate, you take wiser decissions when 29 rather than 21. And ONLY with better decissions you can become you a much better football player -- if you're a good learner.

I agree here with Sabre about the potential of defenders becoming better with age. I dont think it has much to do with the technical abilities they possess, i.e their footwork and passing etc. Prime example of this kind of defender IMO is Carra, while technically he's never once over time improved his footwork and passing ability to the level of Rio Ferdinand for example, in which to a certain extent I do agree with Stu on.

But mentally I think he has and defenders in general can do. For whatever reasons I'm not totally sure, but some CB's mature like a good bottle of read. One theory I do have is because largely the game is played infront of them, they dont play with their backs to the ball during the bulk of the game. They and their keepers have the best view on the field and can see the play develope infront of them.

I think with experiance they can learn to read the game over time and use that to figure out What a player is going to do when. Over time they'll learn to stand off a striker who has very tight control and  can turn you inside out if marked to closely then burn away with pace.They'll learin IMO to give themselves that extra yard. They'll learn when to stay on their feet, rather than diving in exactly how Skertel does at the mo. With time Skertel may become less eratic in the challenge and learn from experiance what the right decision is in a moment of play.

Carra for has become much better in this aspect over time, I do remember him having a stint at CB a few years back. He didnt look the finnished article in that position at that time, infact he did look quite average. Now after coming back to that position and playing there for a number of years, he looks much more accomplished in this role, IMO of course. He knows now when to throw himself into a tackle, and when to jockey, he knows alot more now than he did which is why I think its made him and many more CB's throughout the game better with age, primarily because they can read the game from the back and use that to develope their instincts.

[maypaxvobiscum]

anyway, heres my list of 6 players whom i know who has improved.
1) kolo toure
2) diego forlan
3) jon obi mikel
4) mirko vucinic
5) glen johnson
6) tim cahill

Is there a distintion between improving, and fulfilling potential? (which I think is what Fo Dne is driving at)

Your people like Messi, Kaka etc with those it was a question of time before the reached the top because the natural ability is so high

Lesser players try and improve upon there technique, work on shooting, tackling etc because it doesn't come as naturally to them

then maybe one standout player would be Kevin Doyle

[metalhead]

I do agree with stu that if you don't have something, you will never have it! sissoko can't pass, he will never learn how to pass properly.

[Yooj Bigullz]

Fo Dne, the list of players you prefer is irrelevant here (I presume Boateng is a joke?). The point i was making is Lampard improved as a player. I agree he's a good midfielder in the Prem, but he took what he got and improved as much as he could. His passing is better, he's always had a decent shot. He's also improved his fitness because he was fat at West Ham

You presume Boateng's a joke?

Why's that?

As much as I hate to say this, but I will anyway... besides the fact I've rated the lad since he signed for Coventry aswell, he's statistically the best midfielder in the league over the last ten years in terms of passes completed, tackles won, forward passes completed, ground covered and involvement in general team play.

He's a player they use for analysis in coaching courses for these reasons as they teach you about the "importance" of statistics and how to use them. I do however disagree with statistics in the way they don't always tell the complete story.

I thought he was a decent player too, does some simple things well. I dont think he has ever created many goals or scored many for that matter. More to his game defensively than Lampard, but a better player, not for me.

As to the Boateng Chapter on the coaching courses, I'll have to ask GYBS if that is true

[Fo Dne]

Stu, I've seen defenders that when they were 26, you could catch them breaking the off side line 30 times a season. I've seen the same players getting that right with 30.

I've seen a player losing pace with age, but when pressed, having more composure, being less nervous with the ball, getting that decissions right. It's not attributes, it's decissions, and sometimes mate, you take wiser decissions when 29 rather than 21. And ONLY with better decissions you can become you a much better football player -- if you're a good learner.

I agree here with Sabre about the potential of defenders becoming better with age. I dont think it has much to do with the technical abilities they possess, i.e their footwork and passing etc. Prime example of this kind of defender IMO is Carra, while technically he's never once over time improved his footwork and passing ability to the level of Rio Ferdinand for example, in which to a certain extent I do agree with Stu on.

But mentally I think he has and defenders in general can do. For whatever reasons I'm not totally sure, but some CB's mature like a good bottle of read. One theory I do have is because largely the game is played infront of them, they dont play with their backs to the ball during the bulk of the game. They and their keepers have the best view on the field and can see the play develope infront of them.

I think with experiance they can learn to read the game over time and use that to figure out What a player is going to do when. Over time they'll learn to stand off a striker who has very tight control and  can turn you inside out if, marked to closely then burn away with pace.They'll learin IMO to give themselves that extra yard. They'll learn when to stay on their feet, rather than diving in exactly how Skertel does at the mo. With time Skertel may become less eratic in the challenge and learn from experiance what the right decision is in a moment of play.

Carra for has become much better in this aspect over time, I do remember him having a stint at CB a few years back. He didnt look the finnished articlei that position at the time, infact he did look quite average. Now after coming back to that position and playing there for a number of years, he looks much more accomplished in this role, IMO of course. He knows now when to throw himself into a tackle, and when to jockey, he knows alot more now than he did which is why I think its made him and many more CB's throughout the game better with age, primarily because they can read the game from the back and use that to develope their instincts.

Well myself and you have completely differing memories of Carragher then.

I remember him being excellent at reading the game, throwing in goal saving tackles and always making the right decision (even as a left back under Houllier) he was often covering for the centre halfs and sweeping up aswell as consistenly marking the best wingers in the game, out of games. Over the years myself and a mate of mine kept seeing all these great wingers like Robert, Giggs, Kewell, Beckham etc etc etc all come to anfield or us go away to these teams and not see these players have a kick.

One game at Newcastle was the best example, he dove in on Robert after about 5 minutes, got a yellow card then didn't put a foot wrong for the rest of the game. All these myths about him learning to stay on his feet and when to tackle are quite frankly cliche rubbish that simply isn't true as this is what made him so effective under Houllier and the reason he played most games even after we signed four defenders to replace him.

I remember him at 19 holding a shockingly bad defence together with a poor goalkeeper behind him and doing rather well. He lacked support from all area's and still in some games we managed to only conceed one goal and even the odd clean sheet due to his determination, reading of the game, positioning and tackling ability. I also remember him being decent but not dominant in the air, as he is now. He lacked confidence during that period and it was easy to see why when playing next to the likes of Babb, Matteo, McAteer and Kvarme. What people don't realise is in football is sometimes you're only as good as the person giving you the ball or the person you've give the ball to.

Or in Carraghers case, you're only as good as the defender covering your if you made a mistake. In which case, Carragher had no-one, where as over the last 5 years he's had Sami, Finnan, Riise and other good players around him rather than the he had back then.

[Yooj Bigullz]

Was Robert really a great winger?