Liverpool FC Forum

by **Bam** » Thu Oct 09, 2008 2:41 pm

Carra was an example, many CB's can improve with age, France Baresi, Maldini even Tony Adams being others ?

Carra also has developed more as a leader, therefore helping him improve his game.

by **Bad Bob** » Thu Oct 09, 2008 2:46 pm

Bam wrote:
redbeergoggles wrote:
Bad Bob wrote:
Of Dne wrote:
Bad Bob wrote:
Of Dne wrote:
LFC2007 wrote:Joe Cole - a player who used to frustrate a lot but had the raw ability to be a quality player. He's improved his decision making in his time at Chelsea and developed physically, now a top quality player.

Frank Lampard - a decent midfielder at West Ham who many thought Chelsea overpaid for at £8m. His overall game has improved and he's now arguably one of the best midfielders in the league.

Fernando Torres - Although I didn't watch him often in Spain, he's developed physically without a doubt.

Your first two points are complete and utter rubbish.

FFS, don't start down this road in yet another thread. It's a discussion. If you disagree explain why rather than just dismissing things out of hand. And you wonder why people find you condescending and belligerent.

Whats the point when idiots come back with the great old argument of "you rated Cheyrou" or "are you saying you know more than a professional" or some other rubbish like that.

There was no insult there, I stated a fact. Grow a pair of balls and allow a little bit of freedom of speech. Its pathetic how politically correct this countries becoming. Ban ban ban, censor, censor, censor. Next they'll be talking about not being able to discipline our own kids... oh wait, they already are!

This thread illustrates the sum total of your affect on this forum. On the positive side, you stimulate interesting footy discussion. Sabre's taken a point you often make and turned it into a thread that's got great potential. On the negative side, you condescend to practically everyone that disagrees with you, work hard to shut down debate rather than open it up and persist with the egotistical notion that your beliefs are fact, end of. In short, you're a Grade A to most people on here and then you wonder why some people work so hard to poke holes in your proclamations? As for the whole censorship argument, do me a favour. My job is to ensure that we can have a civil conversation on here and you undermine that at virtually every turn. If you think everyone on here's an idiot that's your prerogative but if you persist on telling everyone so in your posts then we'll continue to have a problem. Sort out the attitude.

So degradation in the form of an insult, ie calling a member a grade A pr*ck is OK, and obviously acceptable if it comes from a moderator, Well done you have practically managed to dismantle and contravene everything you stated in the Open reminder to all members thread .....Keep pushing won't you fella . I'm expecting a card in keeping with the new regime ,but if it materializes then it would have been well worth it .

If you've only entered this topic to stir up what is a general opinion around here, then I'd suggest you take your 'beergoggles' out of this thread and go and get laid by a beautiful woman.

Let's keep focused here because this is fast becoming a top thread. Stu's responded in the right way to my post by focusing on chatting footy rather than shouting down others. Long may that continue. As for redbeergoggles, he can PM me if he's got a beef. I detect a strong whiff of sour grapes even though his card was rescinded ages ago but you can't please everyone.

Back to the discussion and I wonder about the notion of a player "finding their level." Has Glen Johnson improved as a RB since his days at Chelsea or was he simply out of his depth there and is better suited to a side like Portsmouth? What about SWP at Chelsea vs at Man City?

by **Fo Dne** » Thu Oct 09, 2008 2:49 pm

Bam wrote:Has Carra improved as a leader ?

I see where you're wanting to go with this, so we'll stop that one right now. I noticed you didn't contest the fact the game had changed, the fact he still loses the odd first header and the type of forwards have changed aswell as the lack of genuine wide players...

Anyway

Through maturing as a person and understand the system and tactical side of the game of course he has. His confidence has also improved, at no point in the past have I said a player can't mature into a leader, but they have to have the skills there in the first place. I have also commented many times that I feel Terry is a great leader without being a great player and I believe the two things are very different.

Recognised obviously by the fact Carra was the under 21 captain for England aswell on a record breaking amount of occassions I think that all just about adds up.

by **Fo Dne** » Thu Oct 09, 2008 2:52 pm

Bad Bob wrote:
Bam wrote:
redbeergoggles wrote:
Bad Bob wrote:
Of Dne wrote:
Bad Bob wrote:
Of Dne wrote:
LFC2007 wrote:Joe Cole - a player who used to frustrate a lot but had the raw ability to be a quality player. He's improved his decision making in his time at Chelsea and developed physically, now a top quality player.

Frank Lampard - a decent midfielder at West Ham who many thought Chelsea overpaid for at £8m. His overall game has improved and he's now arguably one of the best midfielders in the league.

Fernando Torres - Although I didn't watch him often in Spain, he's developed physically without a doubt.

Your first two points are complete and utter rubbish.

FFS, don't start down this road in yet another thread. It's a discussion. If you disagree explain why rather than just dismissing things out of hand. And you wonder why people find you condescending and belligerent.

Whats the point when idiots come back with the great old argument of "you rated Cheyrou" or "are you saying you know more than a professional" or some other rubbish like that.

There was no insult there, I stated a fact. Grow a pair of balls and allow a little bit of freedom of speech. Its pathetic how politically correct this countries becoming. Ban ban ban, censor, censor, censor. Next they'll be talking about not being able to discipline our own kids... oh wait, they already are!

This thread illustrates the sum total of your affect on this forum. On the positive side, you stimulate interesting footy discussion. Sabre's taken a point you often make and turned it into a thread that's got great potential. On the negative side, you condescend to practically everyone that disagrees with you, work hard to shut down debate rather than open it up and persist with the egotistical notion that your beliefs are fact, end of. In short, you're a Grade A to most people on here and then you wonder why some people work so hard to poke holes in your proclamations? As for the whole censorship argument, do me a favour. My job is to ensure that we can have a civil conversation on here and you undermine that at virtually every turn. If you think everyone on here's an idiot that's your prerogative but if you persist on telling everyone so in your posts then we'll continue to have a problem. Sort out the attitude.

So degradation in the form of an insult, ie calling a member a grade A pr*ck is OK, and obviously acceptable if it comes from a moderator, Well done you have practically managed to dismantle and contravene everything you stated in the Open reminder to all members thread .....Keep pushing won't you fella . I'm expecting a card in keeping with the new regime ,but if it materializes then it would have been well worth it .

If you've only entered this topic to stir up what is a general opinion around here, then I'd suggest you take your 'beergoggles' out of this thread and go and get laid by a beautiful woman.

Let's keep focused here because this is fast becoming a top thread. Stu's responded in the right way to my post by focusing on chatting footy rather than shouting down others. Long may that continue. As for redbeergoggles, he can PM me if he's got a beef. I detect a strong whiff of sour grapes even though his card was rescinded ages ago but you can't please everyone.

Back to the discussion and I wonder about the notion of a player "finding their level." Has Glen Johnson improved as a RB since his days at Chelsea or was he simply out of his depth there and is better suited to a side like Portsmouth? What about SWP at Chelsea vs at Man City?

Russian Doll?

Were you not one of the ones moaning about this?

Glenn Johnson's a good player. He's very good infact. When young players move clubs and are surrounded by superstars, especially when they don't know them it can be intimidating and they can struggle with confidence. Which, you guessed it, affects performance.

Glenn Johnson would get into most sides in the league and I'd have him at Liverpool in a shot.

by **Bad Bob** » Thu Oct 09, 2008 3:02 pm

Fo Dne wrote:Glenn Johnson's a good player. He's very good infact. When young players move clubs and are surrounded by superstars, especially when they don't know them it can be intimidating and they can struggle with confidence. Which, you guessed it, affects performance.

Glenn Johnson would get into most sides in the league and I'd have him at Liverpool in a shot.

Okay, so you're of the opinion that Johnson always had the ability but was just a bit overwhelmed at Chelsea. Where does concentration and maturity factor into the equation. Johnson used to be the type of player that switched off every so often at inopportune moments (not unlike his current teammate, David James). Has he sorted that out now or is he still prone to it? And what does that tell us about a player's ability to improve? Is concentration an "attribute" that can be improved?

by **Fo Dne** » Thu Oct 09, 2008 3:13 pm

Bad Bob wrote:
Fo Dne wrote:Glenn Johnson's a good player. He's very good infact. When young players move clubs and are surrounded by superstars, especially when they don't know them it can be intimidating and they can struggle with confidence. Which, you guessed it, affects performance.

Glenn Johnson would get into most sides in the league and I'd have him at Liverpool in a shot.

Okay, so you're of the opinion that Johnson always had the ability but was just a bit overwhelmed at Chelsea. Where does concentration and maturity factor into the equation. Johnson used to be the type of player that switched off every so often at inopportune moments (not unlike his current teammate, David James). Has he sorted that out now or is he still prone to it? And what does that tell us about a player's ability to improve? Is concentration an "attribute" that can be improved?

That a myth aswell.

He never used to switch off. At West Ham he was caught upfield at times but clearly that was a tactical thing and probably due to the fact West Ham lacked quality defenders and a leader next to him to help him. Also the fact he pratically played like a right wing back there. He was excellent for them though in general which gained him his move.

He went to Chelsea, lost confidence and as a result probably did make mistakes, thats what happens when you lose confidence. Obviously not playing every week didn't help and the desire to impress when he did play probably boiled over into him putting extra pressure on to himself. At Portsmouth now he looks a complete full back, still not as good as Carragher defensively, but showing his quality in general while showing that going forward he's excellent. Against the mancs the other week he done Evra for pace and whipped in a couple of great crosses which is something none of our full backs can do. Lets face it, if you can do Evra for pace, you've got a bit about you.

Not only that, his use of the ball was good and positive. Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the lads world class or even a top player. I've not watched him closely to the extent I could tell you every detail about his game but I have seen enough of him and plenty of Arbeloa to say he's a far better player than the spaniard will ever be and could offer us something we lack from that position aswell as not taking much, if anything, away from what we already have.

by **GYBS** » Thu Oct 09, 2008 3:14 pm

What attributes can and cant be improved ? IMO i think the main one that can never be improved is Pace and maybe natural striker instincts , i think everything else you can improve on through experience , learning from others and training

by **maguskwt** » Thu Oct 09, 2008 3:20 pm

Players attributes don't improve with age. Players don't even become something they aren't. They can learn systems, learn how to play in a particular system, become well drilled and become more confident and get to know their team mates better but they do not improve attributes. Occassionally they will physically develop late, but thats about as far it goes.

in other words their attributes DID improve... you can call it what you want stu but players do develop... it's just a matter of wording... you use the word 'attribute' very cleverly... so you should define what 'attribute' means... if ppl say that gerrard's become a better player... you would say he already had these attributes and just knew how to use them better instead of become a 'better player'... it's just a matter of wording and definition...

Players who spend hours trying to improve and are really determined to improve would improve.

It will never happen, it has never happened.

isn't that contradicting yourself? anyway david beckham wouldn't have become a free kick specialist if he didn't practice alot. his crosses are so consistent because he did practice alot. he did become a better player... let's take michael owen... he used to just use his pace to outrun defenders and score with a simple chip... in his mid twenties, after he got his hamstring injury and lost a yard or two, he developed other aspects of his finishing... anticipation, scoring with left foot, right foot as well as with his head... he did become a better finisher... but you can always say he already had this attribute of finishing and just developed on how to use them better... :suspect:

am i missing something here? sometimes we're arguing but actually we agree on the same thing... :suspect:

by **redbeergoggles** » Thu Oct 09, 2008 3:44 pm

I don't see this as sour grapes, and I do not hold grudges Bob ,what I do look on with disdain is the hypocrisies that are generally overlooked ,if you do lay down set rules designed to enhance the forum please have the good grace to adhere to them yourself .

by **redbeergoggles** » Thu Oct 09, 2008 4:05 pm

Steve McMahon was at best workmanlike at Villa ,but was totally transformed into a midfield General by Liverpool ,and he epitomises a player transformed by sheer application and temerity .

by **redbeergoggles** » Thu Oct 09, 2008 4:23 pm

I used to watch Fowler when he played in the same team as our kid and his determination to get his game right was there for all to see ,if he scored four in a game his Dad would insist on dwelling on the importance of the ones he missed and not the merits of the four he had just netted .At the time I thought this was harsh but it turns out old Robbie was teaching his son a valuable lesson in humility and application which ultimately paid dividends .

by **Yooj Bigullz** » Thu Oct 09, 2008 4:48 pm

Fo Dne wrote:
Yooj Bigullz wrote:I agree largely with that, Fo Dne. For the record, I dont think Lampard is special by any stretch. The system and personnel help a lot, no doubt. I was just making the point I think he improved over time, little things which he could improve, and that has made him a good player instead of staying an average player

Well I disagree because I think he's always been good, no more, no less.

You're obviously wrong because you don't manage at a top club. Tell me about Cheyrou...

:;):

by **Rush Job** » Thu Oct 09, 2008 5:00 pm

Fo Dne wrote:
LFC2007 wrote:
Fo Dne wrote:
LFC2007 wrote:Joe Cole - a player who used to frustrate a lot but had the raw ability to be a quality player. He's improved his decision making in his time at Chelsea and developed physically, now a top quality player.

Frank Lampard - a decent midfielder at West Ham who many thought Chelsea overpaid for at £8m. His overall game has improved and he's now arguably one of the best midfielders in the league.

Fernando Torres - Although I didn't watch him often in Spain, he's developed physically without a doubt.

Your first two points are complete and utter rubbish.

Right, and I should trust your judgement. Boumsong, Cheyrou, Cisse,Prutton etc..

But you trust Benitez'? Lucas, Josemi, Nunez, Gonzalez, Kromkamp etc?

But mate only one of them is still at the club and the other four hardly got a kick.
I suppose you could say we should never had signed them in the first place and you`d obviously have a point, but they were just squad fillers at the time.
And as for Lucas, its not just Rafa that rates him, has he not been in a senior Brazil squad?

by **GYBS** » Thu Oct 09, 2008 5:01 pm

yeah think he has been called up to the last couple of brazil squads and from what i saw he looked decent in the oylimpics

by **Yooj Bigullz** » Thu Oct 09, 2008 5:02 pm

Rush Job wrote:And as for Lucas, its not just Rafa that rates him, has he not been in a senior Brazil squad?

Yes, and so has Vagner Love

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