Liverpool FC Forum

by **Bam** » Thu Oct 09, 2008 1:53 pm

Well myself and you have completely differing memories of Carragher then.

I remember him being excellent at reading the game, throwing in goal saving tackles and always making the right decision (even as a left back under Houllier) he was often covering for the centre halfs and sweeping up aswell as consistenly marking the best wingers in the game, out of games. Over the years myself and a mate of mine kept seeing all these great wingers like Robert, Giggs, Kewell, Beckham etc etc etc all come to anfield or us go away to these teams and not see these players have a kick.

I remember him being being a solid fullback, your typical no-nonsense type. But as a Center back, back then he was average IMO a looks five times the player he is today in that same position.

I also remember him being decent but not dominant in the air

This is one aspect that certainly stands out to me, he was very vulrable in the air back then, IMhumbleO of course.

But your the man with all the coaching experiance, so you must be right.

by **Fo Dne** » Thu Oct 09, 2008 1:59 pm

Yooj Bigullz wrote:
Fo Dne wrote:
Yooj Bigullz wrote:Fo Dne, the list of players you prefer is irrelevant here (I presume Boateng is a joke?). The point i was making is Lampard improved as a player. I agree he's a good midfielder in the Prem, but he took what he got and improved as much as he could. His passing is better, he's always had a decent shot. He's also improved his fitness because he was fat at West Ham

You presume Boateng's a joke?

Why's that?

As much as I hate to say this, but I will anyway... besides the fact I've rated the lad since he signed for Coventry aswell, he's statistically the best midfielder in the league over the last ten years in terms of passes completed, tackles won, forward passes completed, ground covered and involvement in general team play.

He's a player they use for analysis in coaching courses for these reasons as they teach you about the "importance" of statistics and how to use them. I do however disagree with statistics in the way they don't always tell the complete story.

I thought he was a decent player too, does some simple things well. I dont think he has ever created many goals or scored many for that matter. More to his game defensively than Lampard, but a better player, not for me.

As to the Boateng Chapter on the coaching courses, I'll have to ask GYBS if that is true

He's not an assist merchant or goal getter, don't get me wrong. But he is involved in alot of play. Other stats like being the first to touch a ball after a dead ball is an interesting stat and points towards quick thinking on his part. IE showing for the ball early on throw ins, corners and goal kicks etc. He's a quick thinker. Obviously now he's past his best but he was a fantastic player at his best, just no-one ever really took that chance.

It also isn't popular on here, but another " common opinion" (which I share through my own beliefs) in the football world amoungst coaches and manager is the alround quality of Joey Barton. He's held in very high regard by ALOT of top managers, players and coaches and people who've taught him from a young age but there are obvious (and 100% correct) doubts about his attitude and mental state.

I've actually heard people (who's opinions have deserved respect) compare him to Roy Keane, personally I think thats a bit far fetched but I can see where they come from.

As for Lampard, I'm sorry, but I don't think he's anything special at all. I think he's nothing more than a good player, playing with great ones in a system which is made to look him better than he is.

It gets the best out of his ability but doesn't tell the hole story. As I've said in the past, Gerrard may score 20 odd goals aswell playing in the position, but for me I'd rather he played like he did against Everton every week and score 10 goals a season rather than play off the front man and score 20 as I think what Gerrard gave us against Everton, not many other midfielders in the league are capable of giving to a team.

I think alot of good players can be made to look better than they actually are depending on the system they are used in and the type of game the teams play. For me Carragher and Terry are never international class players, but due to the systems employed, even the people around them and the fact they are well drilled and understand how they are used gets the very best out of them. Theres nothing wrong with having good club players either, not every player can be of an international standard. I just think that most of the time people get good club players mixed up with international players due to form or style of play etc etc.

by **Fo Dne** » Thu Oct 09, 2008 2:00 pm

Yooj Bigullz wrote:Was Robert really a great winger?

When he could be bothered.

by **Fo Dne** » Thu Oct 09, 2008 2:04 pm

Bam wrote:
Well myself and you have completely differing memories of Carragher then.

I remember him being excellent at reading the game, throwing in goal saving tackles and always making the right decision (even as a left back under Houllier) he was often covering for the centre halfs and sweeping up aswell as consistenly marking the best wingers in the game, out of games. Over the years myself and a mate of mine kept seeing all these great wingers like Robert, Giggs, Kewell, Beckham etc etc etc all come to anfield or us go away to these teams and not see these players have a kick.

I remember him being being a solid fullback, your typical no-nonsense type. But as a Center back, back then he was average IMO a looks five times the player he is today in that same position.

I also remember him being decent but not dominant in the air

This is one aspect that certainly stands out to me, he was very vulrable in the air back then, IMhumbleO of course.

But your the man with all the coaching experiance, so you must be right.

Completely ignored the point of the post yet again.

It obviously had nothing to do with any of the players he played with then no?

I mean, the reason Hyypia's form suffered a few seasons ago wouldn't have been because he was playing next to Traore would it? I mean, its not like his "form" deserted him when Traore played and it went back to normal as soon as he was sold is it?......

...... Oh wait, yes it was.

Why every time I try to debate anything with you do I have to remind you its a team game? I really don't get how you don't understand this very simple point. You expose players weaknesses and don't put players around them that compliment them and you'll never get the best out of them. Simple as that.

by **Yooj Bigullz** » Thu Oct 09, 2008 2:08 pm

I agree largely with that, Fo Dne. For the record, I dont think Lampard is special by any stretch. The system and personnel help a lot, no doubt. I was just making the point I think he improved over time, little things which he could improve, and that has made him a good player instead of staying an average player

by **stmichael** » Thu Oct 09, 2008 2:08 pm

Fo Dne wrote:As I've said in the past, Gerrard may score 20 odd goals aswell playing in the position, but for me I'd rather he played like he did against Everton every week and score 10 goals a season rather than play off the front man and score 20 as I think what Gerrard gave us against Everton, not many other midfielders in the league are capable of giving to a team.

I'd go along with that.

I've been really impressed with the discipline Gerrard has brought to that role this season, and this is this coming from someone who has criticised him in the past whilst playing in that position. I've seen him have some absolutely outstanding games alongside Alonso there (Chelsea 2-0 a couple of seasons back) and I've seen him have some stinkers (frist half in Istanbul and second half against Galatasaryay at home) when we've been completely overrun. However I agree that when he plays like he did in the Derby and in the second half on Sunday there is nobody better.

I don't really understand spending £20m on Keane if we're going to keep playing Gerrard off the striker where he will socre goals but generally lacks guile and creation. If Gerrard doesn't play in central midfield for whatever reason he should given licence to roam from the right hand side imo instead of Kuyt.

Just out of interest Stu, do you think that Rafa will play Gerrard in central midfield away at Chelsea in a few weeks?

by **Fo Dne** » Thu Oct 09, 2008 2:09 pm

Yooj Bigullz wrote:I agree largely with that, Fo Dne. For the record, I dont think Lampard is special by any stretch. The system and personnel help a lot, no doubt. I was just making the point I think he improved over time, little things which he could improve, and that has made him a good player instead of staying an average player

Well I disagree because I think he's always been good, no more, no less.

by **Fo Dne** » Thu Oct 09, 2008 2:16 pm

stmichael wrote:
Fo Dne wrote:As I've said in the past, Gerrard may score 20 odd goals aswell playing in the position, but for me I'd rather he played like he did against Everton every week and score 10 goals a season rather than play off the front man and score 20 as I think what Gerrard gave us against Everton, not many other midfielders in the league are capable of giving to a team.

I'd go along with that.

I've been really impressed with the discipline Gerrard has brought to that role this season, and this is this coming from someone who has criticised him in the past whilst playing in that position. I've seen him have some absolutely outstanding games alongside Alonso there (Chelsea 2-0 a couple of seasons back) and I've seen him have some stinkers (frist half in Istanbul and second half against Galatasaryay at home) when we've been completely overrun. However I agree that when he plays like he did in the Derby and in the second half on Sunday there is nobody better.

I don't really understand spending £20m on Keane if we're going to keep playing Gerrard off the striker where he will socre goals but generally lacks guile and creation. If Gerrard doesn't play in central midfield for whatever reason he should given licence to roam from the right hand side imo instead of Kuyt.

Just out of interest Stu, do you think that Rafa will play Gerrard in central midfield away at Chelsea in a few weeks?

No I don't.

I think Rafa will bottle it and bring Mascherano back in.

The only thing I would understand is Gerrard on the right side of midfield if he does that, but I've no doubt in my mind it will be the same set up as the start of the "Citeh" game.

I would love to see us go there, early season and play the side that finished against "Citeh". Obviously make tacitcal changes to Keane's starting position to accomodate the fact they have three in the centre, but I'd love us to go there with the intention of winning and seeing how much we can test them.

If we lose, we lose, its one of the 4 or 5 you can afford to lose in a season anyway and its not like other teams won't go there and lose. I just think it would be good to have a real go for a change and suprise Scolari and Chelsea, if we do that, I'd have every confidence in us getting a result. I genuinely think the balance in the midfield with Gerrard, Alonso and Riera is quality with the ability to ask a large number of questions. Its also very solid with players who are willing to defend.

For the life of me though, I can't see it and I can see them pipping it 1-0 I doubt we'll score.

by **redbeergoggles** » Thu Oct 09, 2008 2:20 pm

Bad Bob wrote:
Of Dne wrote:
Bad Bob wrote:
Of Dne wrote:
LFC2007 wrote:Joe Cole - a player who used to frustrate a lot but had the raw ability to be a quality player. He's improved his decision making in his time at Chelsea and developed physically, now a top quality player.

Frank Lampard - a decent midfielder at West Ham who many thought Chelsea overpaid for at £8m. His overall game has improved and he's now arguably one of the best midfielders in the league.

Fernando Torres - Although I didn't watch him often in Spain, he's developed physically without a doubt.

Your first two points are complete and utter rubbish.

FFS, don't start down this road in yet another thread. It's a discussion. If you disagree explain why rather than just dismissing things out of hand. And you wonder why people find you condescending and belligerent.

Whats the point when idiots come back with the great old argument of "you rated Cheyrou" or "are you saying you know more than a professional" or some other rubbish like that.

There was no insult there, I stated a fact. Grow a pair of balls and allow a little bit of freedom of speech. Its pathetic how politically correct this countries becoming. Ban ban ban, censor, censor, censor. Next they'll be talking about not being able to discipline our own kids... oh wait, they already are!

This thread illustrates the sum total of your affect on this forum. On the positive side, you stimulate interesting footy discussion. Sabre's taken a point you often make and turned it into a thread that's got great potential. On the negative side, you condescend to practically everyone that disagrees with you, work hard to shut down debate rather than open it up and persist with the egotistical notion that your beliefs are fact, end of. In short, you're a Grade A to most people on here and then you wonder why some people work so hard to poke holes in your proclamations? As for the whole censorship argument, do me a favour. My job is to ensure that we can have a civil conversation on here and you undermine that at virtually every turn. If you think everyone on here's an idiot that's your prerogative but if you persist on telling everyone so in your posts then we'll continue to have a problem. Sort out the attitude.

So degradation in the form of an insult, ie calling a member a grade A pr*ck is OK, and obviously acceptable if it comes from a moderator, Well done you have practically managed to dismantle and contravene everything you stated in the Open reminder to all members thread .....Keep pushing won't you fella . I'm expecting a card in keeping with the new regime ,but if it materializes then it would have been well worth it .

by **Rafa D** » Thu Oct 09, 2008 2:23 pm

Fo Dne wrote:
stmichael wrote:
Fo Dne wrote:As I've said in the past, Gerrard may score 20 odd goals aswell playing in the position, but for me I'd rather he played like he did against Everton every week and score 10 goals a season rather than play off the front man and score 20 as I think what Gerrard gave us against Everton, not many other midfielders in the league are capable of giving to a team.

I'd go along with that.

I've been really impressed with the discipline Gerrard has brought to that role this season, and this is this coming from someone who has criticised him in the past whilst playing in that position. I've seen him have some absolutely outstanding games alongside Alonso there (Chelsea 2-0 a couple of seasons back) and I've seen him have some stinkers (frist half in Istanbul and second half against Galatasaryay at home) when we've been completely overrun. However I agree that when he plays like he did in the Derby and in the second half on Sunday there is nobody better.

I don't really understand spending £20m on Keane if we're going to keep playing Gerrard off the striker where he will socre goals but generally lacks guile and creation. If Gerrard doesn't play in central midfield for whatever reason he should given licence to roam from the right hand side imo instead of Kuyt.

Just out of interest Stu, do you think that Rafa will play Gerrard in central midfield away at Chelsea in a few weeks?

No I don't.

I think Rafa will bottle it and bring Mascherano back in.

The only thing I would understand is Gerrard on the right side of midfield if he does that, but I've no doubt in my mind it will be the same set up as the start of the "Citeh" game.

I would love to see us go there, early season and play the side that finished against "Citeh". Obviously make tacitcal changes to Keane's starting position to accomodate the fact they have three in the centre, but I'd love us to go there with the intention of winning and seeing how much we can test them.

If we lose, we lose, its one of the 4 or 5 you can afford to lose in a season anyway and its not like other teams won't go there and lose. I just think it would be good to have a real go for a change and suprise Scolari and Chelsea, if we do that, I'd have every confidence in us getting a result. I genuinely think the balance in the midfield with Gerrard, Alonso and Riera is quality with the ability to ask a large number of questions. Its also very solid with players who are willing to defend.

For the life of me though, I can't see it and I can see them pipping it 1-0 I doubt we'll score.

Disagree, not with the sentiments of the post but with your analysis on Rafa. I think he'll do exactly what you say, go straight for the kill.

We can't afford to sit back and soak up pressure with Cole and Boswinga running at our fullbacks.

by **Bam** » Thu Oct 09, 2008 2:23 pm

Fo Dne wrote:
Bam wrote:
Well myself and you have completely differing memories of Carragher then.

I remember him being excellent at reading the game, throwing in goal saving tackles and always making the right decision (even as a left back under Houllier) he was often covering for the centre halfs and sweeping up aswell as consistenly marking the best wingers in the game, out of games. Over the years myself and a mate of mine kept seeing all these great wingers like Robert, Giggs, Kewell, Beckham etc etc etc all come to anfield or us go away to these teams and not see these players have a kick.

I remember him being being a solid fullback, your typical no-nonsense type. But as a Center back, back then he was average IMO a looks five times the player he is today in that same position.

I also remember him being decent but not dominant in the air

This is one aspect that certainly stands out to me, he was very vulrable in the air back then, IMhumbleO of course.

But your the man with all the coaching experiance, so you must be right.

Completely ignored the point of the post yet again.

It obviously had nothing to do with any of the players he played with then no?

I mean, the reason Hyypia's form suffered a few seasons ago wouldn't have been because he was playing next to Traore would it? I mean, its not like his "form" deserted him when Traore played and it went back to normal as soon as he was sold is it?......

...... Oh wait, yes it was.

Why every time I try to debate anything with you do I have to remind you its a team game? I really don't get how you don't understand this very simple point. You expose players weaknesses and don't put players around them that compliment them and you'll never get the best out of them. Simple as that.

I know very well its a team game, but can I remind you. Usually one CB marks one striker, so the aerially duel is usually between the two players themselves and not the other 20 players on the pitch.

Its a team game duh,but individual duels take place all over the pitch aswell. Of course you been able to see weakness' in Arbeloa and Kuyt as individuals, and I could see a weakness in Carra back then as an individual.

Simple.

by **stmichael** » Thu Oct 09, 2008 2:25 pm

Fo Dne wrote:
stmichael wrote:
Fo Dne wrote:As I've said in the past, Gerrard may score 20 odd goals aswell playing in the position, but for me I'd rather he played like he did against Everton every week and score 10 goals a season rather than play off the front man and score 20 as I think what Gerrard gave us against Everton, not many other midfielders in the league are capable of giving to a team.

I'd go along with that.

I've been really impressed with the discipline Gerrard has brought to that role this season, and this is this coming from someone who has criticised him in the past whilst playing in that position. I've seen him have some absolutely outstanding games alongside Alonso there (Chelsea 2-0 a couple of seasons back) and I've seen him have some stinkers (frist half in Istanbul and second half against Galatasaryay at home) when we've been completely overrun. However I agree that when he plays like he did in the Derby and in the second half on Sunday there is nobody better.

I don't really understand spending £20m on Keane if we're going to keep playing Gerrard off the striker where he will socre goals but generally lacks guile and creation. If Gerrard doesn't play in central midfield for whatever reason he should given licence to roam from the right hand side imo instead of Kuyt.

Just out of interest Stu, do you think that Rafa will play Gerrard in central midfield away at Chelsea in a few weeks?

No I don't.

I think Rafa will bottle it and bring Mascherano back in.

The only thing I would understand is Gerrard on the right side of midfield if he does that, but I've no doubt in my mind it will be the same set up as the start of the "Citeh" game.

I would love to see us go there, early season and play the side that finished against "Citeh". Obviously make tacitcal changes to Keane's starting position to accomodate the fact they have three in the centre, but I'd love us to go there with the intention of winning and seeing how much we can test them.

If we lose, we lose, its one of the 4 or 5 you can afford to lose in a season anyway and its not like other teams won't go there and lose. I just think it would be good to have a real go for a change and suprise Scolari and Chelsea, if we do that, I'd have every confidence in us getting a result. I genuinely think the balance in the midfield with Gerrard, Alonso and Riera is quality with the ability to ask a large number of questions. Its also very solid with players who are willing to defend.

For the life of me though, I can't see it and I can see them pipping it 1-0 I doubt we'll score.

I agree entirely. I was saying the other day that with the exception of Agger for Skrtel, the team that statred against City will start at the bridge.

If you remember two seasons back we went there and had a real go at them and should have won but ended up losing 1-0. We played Gerrard on the left and Pennant on the right. Drogba scored a worldy with their only shot on goal. Pennant ran rings around Ashley Cole, Kuyt hit the bar, Gerrard and Crouch both missed sitters. Despite the loss, it was one of our better performances that season.

To be honest, it comes down to the philosophy of the manager at the end of the day. Would Rafa be happy with a draw? Probably. However we saw the Mancs attack them a couple of weeks back and they didn't like it, especially in the first half. It's the same way that Scolari's philosophy is completely different to that of Mourinho, and why you are seeing a more exciting Chelsea this season.

by **maypaxvobiscum** » Thu Oct 09, 2008 2:29 pm

is this thread based on the chelsea match or players who improved or can improve?

by **Bam** » Thu Oct 09, 2008 2:34 pm

redbeergoggles wrote:
Bad Bob wrote:
Of Dne wrote:
Bad Bob wrote:
Of Dne wrote:
LFC2007 wrote:Joe Cole - a player who used to frustrate a lot but had the raw ability to be a quality player. He's improved his decision making in his time at Chelsea and developed physically, now a top quality player.

Frank Lampard - a decent midfielder at West Ham who many thought Chelsea overpaid for at £8m. His overall game has improved and he's now arguably one of the best midfielders in the league.

Fernando Torres - Although I didn't watch him often in Spain, he's developed physically without a doubt.

Your first two points are complete and utter rubbish.

FFS, don't start down this road in yet another thread. It's a discussion. If you disagree explain why rather than just dismissing things out of hand. And you wonder why people find you condescending and belligerent.

Whats the point when idiots come back with the great old argument of "you rated Cheyrou" or "are you saying you know more than a professional" or some other rubbish like that.

There was no insult there, I stated a fact. Grow a pair of balls and allow a little bit of freedom of speech. Its pathetic how politically correct this countries becoming. Ban ban ban, censor, censor, censor. Next they'll be talking about not being able to discipline our own kids... oh wait, they already are!

This thread illustrates the sum total of your affect on this forum. On the positive side, you stimulate interesting footy discussion. Sabre's taken a point you often make and turned it into a thread that's got great potential. On the negative side, you condescend to practically everyone that disagrees with you, work hard to shut down debate rather than open it up and persist with the egotistical notion that your beliefs are fact, end of. In short, you're a Grade A to most people on here and then you wonder why some people work so hard to poke holes in your proclamations? As for the whole censorship argument, do me a favour. My job is to ensure that we can have a civil conversation on here and you undermine that at virtually every turn. If you think everyone on here's an idiot that's your prerogative but if you persist on telling everyone so in your posts then we'll continue to have a problem. Sort out the attitude.

So degradation in the form of an insult, ie calling a member a grade A pr*ck is OK, and obviously acceptable if it comes from a moderator, Well done you have practically managed to dismantle and contravene everything you stated in the Open reminder to all members thread .....Keep pushing won't you fella . I'm expecting a card in keeping with the new regime ,but if it materializes then it would have been well worth it .

If you've only entered this topic to stir up what is a general opinion around here, then I'd suggest you take your 'beergoggles' out of this thread and go and get laid by a beautiful woman.

by **Fo Dne** » Thu Oct 09, 2008 2:35 pm

Bam wrote:
Fo Dne wrote:
Bam wrote:
Well myself and you have completely differing memories of Carragher then.

I remember him being excellent at reading the game, throwing in goal saving tackles and always making the right decision (even as a left back under Houllier) he was often covering for the centre halfs and sweeping up aswell as consistenly marking the best wingers in the game, out of games. Over the years myself and a mate of mine kept seeing all these great wingers like Robert, Giggs, Kewell, Beckham etc etc etc all come to anfield or us go away to these teams and not see these players have a kick.

I remember him being being a solid fullback, your typical no-nonsense type. But as a Center back, back then he was average IMO a looks five times the player he is today in that same position.

I also remember him being decent but not dominant in the air

This is one aspect that certainly stands out to me, he was very vulrable in the air back then, IMhumbleO of course.

But your the man with all the coaching experiance, so you must be right.

Completely ignored the point of the post yet again.

It obviously had nothing to do with any of the players he played with then no?

I mean, the reason Hyypia's form suffered a few seasons ago wouldn't have been because he was playing next to Traore would it? I mean, its not like his "form" deserted him when Traore played and it went back to normal as soon as he was sold is it?......

...... Oh wait, yes it was.

Why every time I try to debate anything with you do I have to remind you its a team game? I really don't get how you don't understand this very simple point. You expose players weaknesses and don't put players around them that compliment them and you'll never get the best out of them. Simple as that.

I know very well its a team game, but can I remind you. Usually one CB marks one striker, so the aerially duel is usually between the two players themselves and not the other 20 players on the pitch.

Its a team game duh,but individual duels take place all over the pitch aswell. Of course you been able to see weakness' in Arbeloa and Kuyt as individuals, and I could see a weakness in Carra back then as an individual.

Simple.

I don't see a difference in him then and now in that department at all. I still see him losing first headers occassionally and still see him win more than his fair share which happened back then aswell.

Just the fact he was probably playing against the likes of Shearer, Sutton, Ferdinand, Sherringham, Klinsman, Yorke and other centre forwards who were far better in the air than the ones of today. The games has evolved also which is something else you're failing to take into consideration. Add to the fact the useless bums around him couldn't win a header or stop a cross to save their lives then obviously he's going to get exposed in the air.

Styles of play have also changed over the years with less long balls being pumped up and less crosses coming in from natural wide players, more things you've completely failed to take into consideration.

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