Liverpool FC Forum

by **account deleted by request** » Fri May 30, 2008 10:16 pm

Number 9 wrote:As for the Saints Man utd injury table thing?
WTF was that all about and what was that meant to prove??

Lando asked what injuries the mancs had had. I dont follow the mancs so had little idea, so I copied the list. I think I proved that they had one or two injuries as well as us.

by **Sabre** » Fri May 30, 2008 10:19 pm

Fair, and debatable questions, and nobody should be annoyed to answer them.

How many of our players played to their best level ?

(Sorry I understood the question as didn't play to their best level)

Plenty. Not Alonso's best season, with an important injury. Pennant not progressed properly, Crouch didn't click. Babel had too much responsabilities in his first season because once again Kewell was injured.

It's only their fault? no. It's Rafa's fault only? no. There are reasons like injuries, turmoil in the club, some Rafa's mistakes in match decissions (like every manager), and a lot of parameters.

I'll even include rotation to honour one of the great topics in newkit.

How many games did we struggle to beat teams we should have walked all over

Quite a few. Out of them, some are due to the above mentioned poor performances, and some, due to decissions of Rafa

How many of our performances were of such a poor standard?

Almost none, when you see Liverpool FC normally you see top football, not lower league football, nor mid team premiership football.

The defensive rigour of Liverpool, while not as good as previous seasons at some points, still is top football in Europe. You know, you don't reach semifinals by luck. Poor standard almost never, but worse than we could, yes, quite a few times.

Whats the point in assembling a team of world class talent if every season you handicap them by the decisions that you make so that we are still waiting for a title challenge

At the least, when you sack the manager you have something to build on or sell and make money, and if you bring someone that clicks well with Gerrard and the dressroom, there won't be a massive goodbye of players when Rafa leaves. In that, the owners will have a lot to say (financial backing).The Torres will leave should Rafa leaves concept, is something I don't believe.

My point? building a good squad isn't nor easy nor pointless. Never. And that's one of the strong points of Rafa, which shouldn't be ignored nor dismissed.

And the main one - Rafa's last chance? If you think that we SHOULD challenge next season, why not agree that if we don't he should go? Or have you such a low opinion of the Liverpool team that you don't think we are good enough to challenge?

Rafa has a contract. A contract to develop a project. So far, I see some mistakes, some things to improve, but much progress aswell. Players are not stupid. They don't want to join projects wich doesn't seem to be promising for their careers. We don't have our important players wishing to leave. That's a good sign for any team. And I don't ignore that.

So we'll see what happens next season. If we don't challenge, we'll analyse the reasons. And we'll decide our opinion based on that. If we see Rafa's losing the plot, losing the dressroom, making mistakes, then many more of us will want him out.

If Rafa's backed financially, there are normal injuries, we sign players that are supposed to give what people like Keweell has not, and we fail miserably, I for one might be asking for a change.

But we're not there yet, and I see progress. That's my view. And I guess that every member here will have his.

by **Number 9** » Fri May 30, 2008 10:26 pm

s@int wrote:How many of our players played to their best level ?

How many games did we struggle to beat teams we should have walked all over

How many of our performances were of such a poor standard?

Whats the point in assembling a team of world class talent if every season you handicap them by the decisions that you make so that we are still waiting for a title challenge

And the main one - Rafa's last chance? If you think that we SHOULD challenge next season, why not agree that if we don't he should go? Or have you such a low opinion of the Liverpool team that you don't think we are good enough to challenge?

Collectively that is a load of balls covered in BBQ sauce!

Every team that wants to be the best will ask themselves your questions!
FFS Saint its not about whats best for LFC anymore with you,its about your hate for our manager!

You have repeatedly called for Mourinhio then when i suggest hes a tw@t you say"It doesnt have to be him"

THEN FUC'KING WHO SMART @RSE COPY AND PASTER DO YOU ACTUALLY WANT??

YOU DONT WANT RAFA...WHO

?

Tell me Sainty boy,who in your disection of everything apart from the facts do YOU want to manage LFC??
:laugh:

by **The Truth!** » Fri May 30, 2008 10:42 pm

Some interesting points raised, and I feel the same as a lot of you.

But this has got to be last chance saloon for Rafa.....my arguments:

1. Out of the tite race by November 2 seasons in a row is poor to be fair.

2. We have won nothing for the 2006-2007 and 2007-2008 seasons. No fa cups, carling and such like.

3. Arsenal, Chelsea and Utd, will still be here next season, strengthening their squads flashing the cash etc. But what can We do to adapt to be better still? it is a worry, these days when the game is ruled by money and big names.

4. I think RIck Parry should go now. I dont think he is the businessman to take us to the next level. and just because he has been here a long time, doesnt mean he is the right man for the job. Hicks showed his concerns. but as a business man he has a valid point.

5. Rafa has spent 150m + on players, mostly spanish. I just feel that 4th place (3rd at best) in 2008/2009 will seal rafa's fate.

Honestly, IM not having a dig, but look at the competition, :censored:

, Chelski, Scum, the way they play, they money they have, etc etc. unless we buy BIG, then it's gonna be the same old story.

It's not that we are not wining the league for me, its that fact we are not even CLOSE to winning it.

Last chance sloon for Rafa. 4th not good enough.

For those of you who think Rafa is the "saint" then think again, his record V Arsenal, Chelsea and Utd in the league is atrocious, (not including CL this season) but we have struggled to score even 1 goal! certainly v the scum!

I remember under Houllier, Danny murphy knocking in those winners At old trafford, going Ssssshhhh to the scum crowd!

One thing that really worries me about Beintez tho is, his love of DEFENDING, all these holding midfielders, he has just bought 2 new defenders since the end of the season (whom i never heard of) and alonso and masch holding all day long.

I personally think this is a cowards way out!

Alonso is better getting forward, spreadng the ball, shooting, etc. let the opposition worry about us! Rafa seems to be scared of gettign beat, heance the holding midfield nonsense.
Hamannn is better and stronger than Masch any day.

by **Number 9** » Fri May 30, 2008 10:44 pm

The Truth! wrote:Some interesting points raised, and I feel the same as a lot of you.

But this has got to be last chance saloon for Rafa.....my arguments:

1. Out of the tite race by November 2 seasons in a row is poor to be fair.

2. We have won nothing for the 2006-2007 and 2007-2008 seasons. No fa cups, carling and such like.

3. Arsenal, Chelsea and Utd, will still be here next season, strengthening their squads flashing the cash etc. But what can We do to adapt to be better still? it is a worry, these days when the game is ruled by money and big names.

4. I think RIck Parry should go now. I dont think he is the businessman to take us to the next level. and just because he has been here a long time, doesnt mean he is the right man for the job. Hicks showed his concerns. but as a business man he has a valid point.

5. Rafa has spent 150m + on players, mostly spanish. I just feel that 4th place (3rd at best) in 2008/2009 will seal rafa's fate.

Honestly, IM not having a dig, but look at the competition, , Chelski, Scum, the way they play, they money they have, etc etc. unless we buy BIG, then it's gonna be the same old story.

It's not that we are not wining the league for me, its that fact we are not even CLOSE to winning it.

Last chance sloon for Rafa. 4th not good enough.

Tell ya what fella!
where are ya from?

by **account deleted by request** » Fri May 30, 2008 10:46 pm

Fair, and debatable questions, and nobody should be annoyed to answer them.

How many of our players played to their best level ?

(Sorry I understood the question as didn't play to their best level)

Plenty. Not Alonso's best season, with an important injury. Pennant not progressed properly, Crouch didn't click. Babel had too much responsabilities in his first season because once again Kewell was injured.

It's only their fault? no. It's Rafa's fault only? no. There are reasons like injuries, turmoil in the club, some Rafa's mistakes in match decissions (like every manager), and a lot of parameters.

I'll even include rotation to honour one of the great topics in newkit.

And Riise, Finnan, Carra, Arbeloa, Kuyt, Voronin, Benayoun? Makes quite a number if you agree?

Quote

How many of our performances were of such a poor standard?

Almost none, when you see Liverpool FC normally you see top football, not lower league football, nor mid team premiership football.

The defensive rigour of Liverpool, while not as good as previous seasons at some points, still is top football in Europe. You know, you don't reach semifinals by luck. Poor standard almost never, but worse than we could, yes, quite a few times.

So you didn't think our performance against say Marseille at home was abysmal? When we couldn't even string two passes together, or Luton away when we were outplayed by a poor lower division side.

Whats the point in assembling a team of world class talent if every season you handicap them by the decisions that you make so that we are still waiting for a title challenge

At the least, when you sack the manager you have something to build on or sell and make money, and if you bring someone that clicks well with Gerrard and the dressroom, there won't be a massive goodbye of players when Rafa leaves. In that, the owners will have a lot to say (financial backing).The Torres will leave should Rafa leaves concept, is something I don't believe.

My point? building a good squad isn't nor easy nor pointless. Never. And that's one of the strong points of Rafa, which shouldn't be ignored nor dismissed.

You make a very good point, but I was meaning in terms of the present set up i.e. its no point having Ronaldo, Kaka etc if off the field decisions mean the team is handicapped and fails to perform.

Quote

And the main one - Rafa's last chance? If you think that we SHOULD challenge next season, why not agree that if we don't he should go? Or have you such a low opinion of the Liverpool team that you don't think we are good enough to challenge?

Rafa has a contract. A contract to develop a project. So far, I see some mistakes, some things to improve, but much progress aswell. Players are not stupid. They don't want to join projects wich doesn't seem to be promising for their careers. We don't have our important players wishing to leave. That's a good sign for any team. And I don't ignore that.

So we'll see what happens next season. If we don't challenge, we'll analyse the reasons. And we'll decide our opinion based on that. If we see Rafa's losing the plot, losing the dressroom, making mistakes, then many more of us will want him out.

If Rafa's backed financially, there are normal injuries, we sign players that are supposed to give what people like Keweell has not, and we fail miserably, I for one might be asking for a change.

But we're not there yet, and I see progress. That's my view. And I guess that every member here will have his.

I think I disagree with this more than your other points. Just because a manager has a contract, doesn't mean we should allow him to fulfill it. Souness for example had a contract but I don't think anyone would argue that he should have fulfilled it.

If we are going to judge a successful manager on whether players wish to leave or not maybe we should just pay the players more and stop worrying about success?

If we don't challenge, we'll analyse the reasons. And we'll decide our opinion based on that. If we see Rafa's losing the plot, losing the dressroom, making mistakes, then many more of us will want him out.

The problem is that many of the signs you are looking for were there this season,so why wait till his contract is up if they are the indicators of when to dismiss a manager?

Sorry if its a bit confusing, I'm not much good at multi-quotes.

by **bigmick** » Fri May 30, 2008 10:46 pm

Poor old Saint. He dares to ask if it's not reasonable to expect us to have a title challenge at some point, just for a couple of weeks maybe during a five year period, and he gets slaughtered. Unbelieveable. If you're not disloyal, your depressing or clueless.

I think Saint is absolutely 100% spot on. I've been saying it for the best part of three years now, if we are able to compete with the big spenders in the Champions League matches on a Wednesday, we should be able to compete with them on a weekend as well. If money is so unbelieveably the be all and end all, we should be able to roll over the poorer clubs with much more efficiency than we do.

Does anybody seriously believe that if we had played the same formation/personel which we played in the last three months for the whole season, that we wouldn't have been at some point in the mix for the title? To quote another poster on here, if you don't believe that you need to need to get your head out of your erse and wake up.

Everyone it seems to me thinks that Rafa has spent the 150 million quid fairly well, and the team is much stronger than when he arrived. Everyone accepts that Man Utd and Chelsea have more money than us and that it is going to be difficult for us to WIN the Premiership. All we are asking though, and surely it isn't too much, is that at some time during a five year period we launch a challenge for the title. If at the end of the day we have spent 150 million quid building a team which is never ever going to challenge for the title over a five year period, then to my mind we've wasted our money anyway and should be looking for a change of direction. debate? Some people on here need to grow up.

by **account deleted by request** » Fri May 30, 2008 10:55 pm

Number 9 wrote:
s@int wrote:How many of our players played to their best level ?

How many games did we struggle to beat teams we should have walked all over

How many of our performances were of such a poor standard?

Whats the point in assembling a team of world class talent if every season you handicap them by the decisions that you make so that we are still waiting for a title challenge

And the main one - Rafa's last chance? If you think that we SHOULD challenge next season, why not agree that if we don't he should go? Or have you such a low opinion of the Liverpool team that you don't think we are good enough to challenge?

Collectively that is a load of balls covered in BBQ sauce!

Every team that wants to be the best will ask themselves your questions!
FFS Saint its not about whats best for LFC anymore with you,its about your hate for our manager!

You have repeatedly called for Mourinhio then when i suggest hes a tw@t you say"It doesnt have to be him"

THEN FUC'KING WHO SMART @RSE COPY AND PASTER DO YOU ACTUALLY WANT??

YOU DONT WANT RAFA...WHO ?

Tell me Sainty boy,who in your disection of everything apart from the facts do YOU want to manage LFC??

1/ I don't hate Rafa, I think he is a good manager who has MAYBE taken us as far as he can.

2/ I think Mourinho would do a good job, as would many other managers. Just look at who is rumoured to be joining Chelsea and take your pick. FFS I think even fat sam would get us fourth.

So take it which way you fkn want. I would rather be smart than as dumb as pigsh!t.

Houllier got us 4th just before he was sacked. Who did you want then, because you had probably never even heard of Benitez.

by **Number 9** » Fri May 30, 2008 10:57 pm

bigmick wrote:Poor old Saint. He dares to ask if it's not reasonable to expect us to have a title challenge at some point, just for a couple of weeks maybe during a five year period, and he gets slaughtered. Unbelieveable. If you're not disloyal, your depressing or clueless.

I think Saint is absolutely 100% spot on. I've been saying it for the best part of three years now, if we are able to compete with the big spenders in the Champions League matches on a Wednesday, we should be able to compete with them on a weekend as well. If money is so unbelieveably the be all and end all, we should be able to roll over the poorer clubs with much more efficiency than we do.

Does anybody seriously believe that if we had played the same formation/personel which we played in the last three months for the whole season, that we wouldn't have been at some point in the mix for the title? To quote another poster on here, if you don't believe that you need to need to get your head out of your erse and wake up.

Everyone it seems to me thinks that Rafa has spent the 150 million quid fairly well, and the team is much stronger than when he arrived. Everyone accepts that Man Utd and Chelsea have more money than us and that it is going to be difficult for us to WIN the Premiership. All we are asking though, and surely it isn't too much, is that at some time during a five year period we launch a challenge for the title. If at the end of the day nwe have spent 150 million quid buiolding a team which is never ever going to challenge for the title over a five year period, then to my mind we've wasted our money anyway and should be looking for a change of direction. debate? Some people on here need to grow up.

You look from different eyes,that is the difference!!

Raffa has got rid of some of our worst EVER signings and has brought in our best over a period of 4 years!
I can see the future,you and Saint are worried about now!

We with a stranglehold cannot financially compete with UTD who only need a player or 2 due to Fergie being there for 20 years or Chelsea who had any money they wanted doing it right now!

TO Simplify if you want a house buy it,it may need some work done!Call Abromovich!

by **66-1112520797** » Fri May 30, 2008 11:00 pm

bigmick wrote:Poor old Saint. He dares to ask if it's not reasonable to expect us to have a title challenge at some point, just for a couple of weeks maybe during a five year period, and he gets slaughtered. Unbelieveable. If you're not disloyal, your depressing or clueless.

I think Saint is absolutely 100% spot on. I've been saying it for the best part of three years now, if we are able to compete with the big spenders in the Champions League matches on a Wednesday, we should be able to compete with them on a weekend as well. If money is so unbelieveably the be all and end all, we should be able to roll over the poorer clubs with much more efficiency than we do.

Does anybody seriously believe that if we had played the same formation/personel which we played in the last three months for the whole season, that we wouldn't have been at some point in the mix for the title? To quote another poster on here, if you don't believe that you need to need to get your head out of your erse and wake up.

Everyone it seems to me thinks that Rafa has spent the 150 million quid fairly well, and the team is much stronger than when he arrived. Everyone accepts that Man Utd and Chelsea have more money than us and that it is going to be difficult for us to WIN the Premiership. All we are asking though, and surely it isn't too much, is that at some time during a five year period we launch a challenge for the title. If at the end of the day nwe have spent 150 million quid buiolding a team which is never ever going to challenge for the title over a five year period, then to my mind we've wasted our money anyway and should be looking for a change of direction. debate? Some people on here need to grow up.

F.ucking spot on.

The second paragraph there contradicts evrything the likes of Lando and co keep harping on about.

Good point there Micky.

And on your last paragraph, I dare not mention United or Chelsea. So instead look at Everton who have spent nothing compared to what we have and are our main rivals positionally for fourth spot every year.

by **Sabre** » Fri May 30, 2008 11:01 pm

Come on. I'm much closer to those who support Rafa, but FFS, it's just natural that some true fans do not share the same opinion about our manager.

Let's discuss that with no dramas. S@int has the right to be tired of the current manager!! he's a fan! and which fan of the world hasn't been tired of a manager at some point!

Chill out, cojones!

by **Number 9** » Fri May 30, 2008 11:03 pm

Sabre wrote:Come on. I'm much closer to those who support Rafa, but FFS, it's just natural that some true fans do not share the same opinion about our manager.

Let's discuss that with no dramas. S@int has the right to be tired of the current manager!! he's a fan! and which fan of the world hasn't been tired of a manager at some point!

Chill out, cojones!

Cop out!!

by **bigmick** » Fri May 30, 2008 11:07 pm

Barry you can see into the future and fair enough. I can only see now, and even more crucially the past. We have had a team which has been more than good enough to challenge for the title in some capacity or other for two seasons now in my opinion. Rafa largely built the team and I always point out that I think he has largely bought well. I don't blame him for the Kuyts and the Morientes's of this world because there have been many good signings to cancel those out, and besides which all managers feck up from time to time (as indeed all people do). I've said it a million times before and I'll say it again now, HE HAS MASSIVELY IMPROVED THE TEAM SINCE HE ARRIVED.

I though, unlike some think that he has improved it to the extent where it is good enough to launch a challenge for the title. I actually think the team is far better than the pack who are swarming around Saint for daring to suggest the same thing. It makes me disloyal and less of a fan though because I think the team is better and capable of more than they or you do?

So when you guys say "give him time/remember Fergie, he'll build a team good enough to challenge" I disagree. WE'VE ALREADY GOT ONE AND HAVE HAD FOR THE LAST TWO YEARS!!!!!!!!! So forgive me for not quite sharing some peoples patience, (somebody even suggested he should be given another four years). If we can't even launch a challenge when the team is patently obviously good enough to do so (and perhaps some would dispute the notion from two years ago, but surely not last season?) then it is hardly surprising that one or two begin to lose a bit of faith.

by **Number 9** » Fri May 30, 2008 11:15 pm

bigmick wrote:Barry you can see into the future and fair enough. I can only see now, and even more crucially the past. We have had a team which has been more than good enough to challenge for the title in some capacity or other for two seasons now in my opinion. Rafa largely built the team and I always point out that I think he has largely bought well. I don't blame him for the Kuyts and the Morientes's of this world because there have been many good signings to cancel those out, and besides which all managers feck up from time to time (as indeed all people do). I've said it a million times before and I'll say it again now, HE HAS MASSIVELY IMPROVED THE TEAM SINCE HE ARRIVED.

I though, unlike some think that he has improved it to the extent where it is good enough to launch a challenge for the title. I actually think the team is far better than the pack who are swarming around Saint for daring to suggest the same thing. It makes me disloyal and less of a fan though because I think the team is better and capable of more than they or you do?

So when you guys say "give him time/remember Fergie, he'll build a team good enough to challenge" I disagree. WE'VE ALREADY GOT ONE AND HAVE HAD FOR THE LAST TWO YEARS!!!!!!!!! So forgive me for not quite sharing some peoples patience, (somebody even suggested he should be given another four years). If we can't even launch a challenge when the team is patently obviously good enough to do so (and perhaps some would dispute the notion from two years ago, but surely not last season?) then it is hardly surprising that one or two begin to lose a bit of faith.

I will swap you my future ticket any time lad for 4 dildos and a tube o lube!(with batteries)

But im not having saint coming on here banging bad stuff about rafa and basically cutting LFC down to the bone!
Especially when he talks :censored:

and produces things he gets elsewhere!!

Want me to copy and patse a diagram???

by **bigmick** » Fri May 30, 2008 11:15 pm

Sabre wrote:Come on. I'm much closer to those who support Rafa, but FFS, it's just natural that some true fans do not share the same opinion about our manager.

Let's discuss that with no dramas. S@int has the right to be tired of the current manager!! he's a fan! and which fan of the world hasn't been tired of a manager at some point!

Chill out, cojones!

It's a good point Sabes and well put. I've copped a fair bit myself though on here over the years, what I do for a living, where I live, where I'm from, whether or not I manage a Sunday League team, how many games I've been to etc etc, but it annoyed me what Saint got there. I know he's not on his own. Bob cops it sometimes for being Canadian, living in Canada, not attending matches etc and I think that's wrong too.

This has been and is a good thread, it's not a Rafa bashing session save for the occasional piece of flatulance from Heimdall (and in fairness to him he cops his share and takes it) and there wasn't any need for all that.

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