Liverpool FC Forum

[account deleted by request]

In fairness to saint , although i don't agree with him . It's not like he's just come to this conclusion , he's been pretty much consistant in his views over the best part of last season . He has made his concerns about rafa's management pretty obvious over an extended period , Mick and bm have been the same ,mick being the longest .

Their all valid points and concerns they have , and if anyone thinks that going to the match on a regular basis stops you or prevents you from having these concerns are dillusional.

All you have to do is go the ale ouse before or after the match and the same points that the lads mentioned are being discussed on a regular basis .

We all have one thing in common (and i include the mad norwegian in this)is we want the best for LFC.

Now i don't want to bore you with this point ,but to be honest with you Rafa's abilities come a very distant second for me at the moment . My only concern at this time is the future of our club and if it has one. I don't want to take anything away from this debate (because i think it's a really good one) but if fans had showed as much passion regarding the future of our club ,than they do for Rafa's inadequacies or not we wouldn't be in half the mess were in now. The apathy towards the current situation is driving me nuts.

This is not a dig at the posters in this thread honestly ,it's a dig at the fans in general . I'm sorry if you think this has nothing to do with this debate , it wasn't my intention to detract from it , it's just the way i feel about current issues regarding the club and what is the priority with us fans.

To be honest Igor, I have just become sickened by the Hicks and Gillett saga. I had high hopes that we would one way or another see the back of them before too long , but while I understand/believe negotiations are still ongoing ? I think it gets less likely as the weeks go by.

So, as there is little more we can say or do about H&G at the moment, and I doubt if there will be much movement before August/September I am trying to ignore the problem. There are only so many ways you can insult the two tw@ts before you start repeating yourself mate, and I think in the short term there is little that can be done.

TBH I think it would take match boycotts to make any real impression and I just can't see that EVER happening. (Maybe if the groundshare looked like becoming reality?)

Back to Rafa, I was honestly ready to see him go by January,even though I would have preferred to wait till the summer,  but as I predicted and expected........ a good CL run and a fine run in the league changed a lot of minds.

I think Rafa did just enough last season to be given another season , but I admit that my hopes of him EVER bringing the title back are very slim now. I think he makes too many mistakes and often makes changes when there is no need (imo).

When Rafa was brought in, he was supposedly the one that could enable us to win the title WITHOUT being able to match the mancs and Chelsea in the transfer market. Now it seems that most have accepted that the ONLY way we will win the title with Rafa is if we do match them in the transfer market.

[66-1112520797]

When Rafa was brought in, he was supposedly the one that could enable us to win the title WITHOUT being able to match the mancs and Chelsea in the transfer market. Now it seems that most have accepted that the ONLY way we will win the title with Rafa is if we do match them in the transfer market.

Oh yeah forgot about that, I'm gonna go and pick up me stick

[account deleted by request]

When Rafa was brought in, he was supposedly the one that could enable us to win the title WITHOUT being able to match the mancs and Chelsea in the transfer market. Now it seems that most have accepted that the ONLY way we will win the title with Rafa is if we do match them in the transfer market.

Oh yeah forgot about that, I'm gonna go and pick up me stick

Seems a lot of people on here seem to have forgot all about that Bam 

[Igor Zidane]

When Rafa was brought in, he was supposedly the one that could enable us to win the title WITHOUT being able to match the mancs and Chelsea in the transfer market. Now it seems that most have accepted that the ONLY way we will win the title with Rafa is if we do match them in the transfer market.

Oh yeah forgot about that, I'm gonna go and pick up me stick

Seems a lot of people on here seem to have forgot all about that Bam 

To be honest with you saint i can't rmember anyone saying ,Rafa was able to compete with the mancs and chelsea without the same funds . What i do remember is ,and it might be selective memory here mate. Is that Rafa was brought in to move he club forward , it was moores and parry's job to "sell the family silver" to enable us to compete withe the mancs and chelsea financially .

[account deleted by request]

When Rafa was brought in, he was supposedly the one that could enable us to win the title WITHOUT being able to match the mancs and Chelsea in the transfer market. Now it seems that most have accepted that the ONLY way we will win the title with Rafa is if we do match them in the transfer market.

Oh yeah forgot about that, I'm gonna go and pick up me stick

Seems a lot of people on here seem to have forgot all about that Bam 

To be honest with you saint i can't rmember anyone saying ,Rafa was able to compete with the mancs and chelsea without the same funds . What i do remember is ,and it might be selective memory here mate. Is that Rafa was brought in to move he club forward , it was moores and parry's job to "sell the family silver" to enable us to compete withe the mancs and chelsea financially .

I can't remember now what the exact quote was but it was along the lines of Rafa proved with Valencia that he could compete and beat the top sides (Real Madrid and Barca)even without having the same financial backing, so we are hoping that he can do the same with us.

It probably went on to quote "the table and the new leg " saying as well mate.

Couldn't find anything when I looked though.

[taff]

There are two camps and insults betwen the two which is natural, I am annoyed by the anti Rafa lot as I am pro Rafa and from my point of view I find the anti rafa lot insulting in their arguments.

I do however know it is an internet forum and welcome different points of view, I even sympathise with the opposite point of view its just that I dont buy into it.  But to be called a happy clapper is what I find insulting.  I think Rafa is taking us forward and cant see who would be there to make an instant improvement on what we have at this moment in time.  The main issue is the club and never indivduals so I would gladly sack rafa if it was to the clubs benefit but I dont think it would be to the clubs benefit.

We are now a force in Europe whatever people say about the CL being a guaranteed fixture, for me its indicative of the high level we have to pursue to be winners in our own league and in the CL, the bar is being raised and even though we have improved as a team the bar is getting higher, so any comparisons to Ferguson, wenger, Valencia etc are just weaker as we have to adjust to the situation at this moment in time.  In this fact I think we have a manager who is young and learning and will set standards for years to come.  Now people will disagree with this but what I dont hear is a serious viable alternative to take us forward. 

Mourinho is a name that is thrown about but he wont come here, yes I think he would have done a great job but not more so than Rafa with the squad we have both then and now. And I prefer the quiet dignity of Rafa to the loudmouth special one.  So who could give us the league.  If we talk about this then come up with a name and a realistice one,  as there is no point in wishing Kaka would join us there is also no point in making statements about managers who would not come here, and to be honest who is that much better.

wenger is struggling at his own club so he wont come here either. 

Avram Grant maybe, did well in the league and got to a CL final would we be happy to see him, has finished above Rafa in the league, so logically the anti Rafa lot would not be too upset about him coming here.

A bit confontational perhaps but while I respect the arguments, for the good of the club I would welcome some suggestions to a alternative life from Rafa

[Sabre]

When Rafa was brought in, he was supposedly the one that could enable us to win the title WITHOUT being able to match the mancs and Chelsea in the transfer market. Now it seems that most have accepted that the ONLY way we will win the title with Rafa is if we do match them in the transfer market.

Oh yeah forgot about that, I'm gonna go and pick up me stick

Seems a lot of people on here seem to have forgot all about that Bam 

To be honest with you saint i can't rmember anyone saying ,Rafa was able to compete with the mancs and chelsea without the same funds . What i do remember is ,and it might be selective memory here mate. Is that Rafa was brought in to move he club forward , it was moores and parry's job to "sell the family silver" to enable us to compete withe the mancs and chelsea financially .

I can't remember now what the exact quote was but it was along the lines of Rafa proved with Valencia that he could compete and beat the top sides (Real Madrid and Barca)even without having the same financial backing, so we are hoping that he can do the same with us.

It probably went on to quote "the table and the new leg " saying as well mate.

Couldn't find anything when I looked though.

Don't search the quotes, your credibility is good enough for  me. Plus, you're right.

Of course I and others said that we could expect COMPETING without the SAME funds of Chelsea and Manchester United. I for one, never expected we spent the ridiculous amounts of money of Chelsea, who, to buy an Arbeloa, like Del Horno, they pay a lot of money.

Not only me and others thought that way. In fact, you and others think that at least these years we should have challenged at some point. Which necessarily means you believe we can compete with Chelsea and Manchester without their same spending.

*But*

Saying that we don't need that kind of money, is not saying we don't need investment at all. IF Rafa isn't given money for transfers, it's not that he's not given Chelsea-esque money, it's that he's not even given the money that teams like Tottenham spend.

I don't want to spend more than the other two rivals, I just want that if we need a fúcking winger, for once the club makes an effort and we don't lose a winger because we didn't want to pay 1 M more, or because Parry was unefficient.

You can compete with LESS money, but there's a limit for that.

[66-1112520797]

The thing with all this ' we havent enough money' stuff is, we spend a hell of a lot more than the likes of Everton do yet only finnish one place above them. While Tottenham spend their fair share of millions and finnish 11th.

Money isnt the be all and end all in football like some people on here would have you believe. Their are sixteen other teams in the league. So by rights because we spend more than them we should pick up maximum points ? It doesnt work like that does it, as we seem to struggle against the likes of Portsmouth, Birmingham and Bolton. When it comes down to beating the bulk of the sixteen other teams, money shouldnt be an excuse, our squad and team is better than any of those teams yet we struggle to beat them.

Why is that then ?

We're to inconsistent to compete with Man U and Chelsea, thats got nothing to do with money. Thats an area the gaffer needs to sort out. Why are we so inconsistent, maybe because the gaffer likes to make a whopping 72 changes in personel in the first few months of the season. Maybe because the gaffer makes some odd selection decisions, maybe becasue the gaffer makes some unfathamable substitutions, maybe the gaffer mucks around with his formations too much and cant find a settled rythmn. Maybe the gaffer, when given the funds doesnt always make the best of transfer deals. Maybe its the gaffers mentality and approach to certain games.

If most of those 'maybes' were eradicated from mine/others thoughts, were we couldnt really question the manager, then possibly you could bring up the case of not having the money as an excuse. If those 'maybes' were eradicated from thoughts, my hunch is we'd challenge or even win the title, and money wouldnt be the next big excuse.

[kazza]

Every time I see one of your posts I feel strange!
I feel like getting a tartan blanket from me grandad and a packet of wherthers originals,jumping up on yer knee and talking about spitfires,the war and those bloody jerrys!

[bigmick]

Every time I see one of your posts I feel strange!
I feel like getting a tartan blanket from me grandad and a packet of wherthers originals,jumping up on yer knee and talking about spitfires,the war and those bloody jerrys!

Actually fair play to Baz that was quite funny that   

[maypaxvobiscum]

When Rafa was brought in, he was supposedly the one that could enable us to win the title WITHOUT being able to match the mancs and Chelsea in the transfer market. Now it seems that most have accepted that the ONLY way we will win the title with Rafa is if we do match them in the transfer market.

Oh yeah forgot about that, I'm gonna go and pick up me stick

Seems a lot of people on here seem to have forgot all about that Bam 

To be honest with you saint i can't rmember anyone saying ,Rafa was able to compete with the mancs and chelsea without the same funds . What i do remember is ,and it might be selective memory here mate. Is that Rafa was brought in to move he club forward , it was moores and parry's job to "sell the family silver" to enable us to compete withe the mancs and chelsea financially .

I can't remember now what the exact quote was but it was along the lines of Rafa proved with Valencia that he could compete and beat the top sides (Real Madrid and Barca)even without having the same financial backing, so we are hoping that he can do the same with us.

It probably went on to quote "the table and the new leg " saying as well mate.

Couldn't find anything when I looked though.

top sides in spain but who are the top sides in europe now? its chelsea and manure who got to the finals.

[Owzat]

What Rafa did in Spain has little bearing on whether he wins the Premiership in England, if it were that simple he would have done it by no - n'est pas? (or whatever the Spanish equivalent is)

Four seasons in something has to change, whether it be the money available increasing, the manager suddenly becoming more astute and getting more out of players and so doing a Wenger OR the manager himself being changed. I can't see the money situation changing in a hurry, I can't see Rafa suddenly finding the magic formula but of the three the change of manager is the most likely (at present)

[stmichael]

We're not going to win the title unless we get a serious injection of cash from somewhere. That was the only purpose of getting new owners. Since they clearly don't have it, we're not going to win it.

Look at Chelsea and Man United. They can afford to buy who they want, and pay over the odds to get the man they want. Don't give a toss if Carrick for 18 or Hargreaves for 18 is overpriced, it won them the titles. Buying bargain basement is a myth and should be put to bed. Dear old Arsene Wenger, for all his penny-pinching, has won one miserable FA Cup in five years despite the admittedly wonderful talent he has managed to spot.

[redbeergoggles]

Theres no problem mate, I believe if he cant mount a title challenge in 5 years he should go. Thats my opinion. If you think he should be given as long as it takes to mount a title challenge thats your prerogative. Personally I think if he hasn't managed it by next season the likelyhood of him ever managing it is slim.

As people are happy to keep reminding us Fergie didn't win it for 7 years......... but he did challenge in 2! 

Top and bottom of it is I must have a higher opinion of our team than you. I think they were good enough to challenge, you obviously don't.

Conversely, you must have a higher opinion of Rafa than I do, you must think he did the best he could with a poor set of players, I don't.

You have to remember the injuries we had, though - key players out for a length of time.

Before you say "every team has injuries" - tell me how Man U suffered this year.

I am not an expert on manc injuries , but they have had Neville (out for the season) Silvester (out for the season) Rooney (broken foot?) , Vidic, Giggs, Hargreaves.(all out for long periods.) Van der sar (I think was injured for a while ?)

Patrice Evra Injury Concussion  2008 April 29th
Wayne Rooney Injury Hip/Thigh Injury  2008 April 26th
Nemanja Vidic Injury Concussion  2008 April 26th
Nemanja Vidic Injury Stomach Infection  2008 April 21st
Wayne Rooney Injury Hip/Thigh Injury  2008 April 19th
Edwin Van Der Sar Injury Groin Strain  2008 April 18th
Rio Ferdinand Injury Ankle/Foot Injury  2008 April 7th
Nemanja Vidic Injury Knee Injury  2008 April 3rd
Nani Injury Thigh Muscle Strain  2008 March 31st
Ryan Giggs Injury Hamstring Injury  2008 March 30th
Darren Fletcher Injury Knee Injury  2008 March 28th
Louis Saha Injury Hamstring Injury  2008 March 20th
Rio Ferdinand Injury Back Injury  2008 March 17th
Louis Saha Injury Knee Injury  2008 March 14th
Edwin Van Der Sar Injury Groin Strain  2008 March 8th
Patrice Evra Injury Virus  2008 February 29th
Ryan Giggs Injury Knee Injury  2008 February 27th
Nemanja Vidic Injury Calf Muscle Strain  2008 February 27th
Louis Saha Injury Cartilage Knee Injury  2008 February 1st
Gary Neville Injury Os Trigonum Syndrome  2008 February 1st
Wayne Rooney Injury Virus  2008 January 2nd
Carlos Tevez Injury Ankle/Foot Injury  2008 January 2nd
Edwin Van Der Sar Injury Groin Strain  2007 December 24th
Rio Ferdinand Injury Ankle/Foot Injury  2007 December 24th
Owen Hargreaves Injury Back Injury  2007 December 24th
John O'Shea Injury Groin Strain  2007 December 14th
Gary Neville Injury Ankle/Foot Injury  2007 December 7th
Nemanja Vidic Injury Back Injury  2007 November 27th
Edwin Van Der Sar Injury Ankle/Foot Injury  2007 November 9th
Wayne Rooney Injury Sprained Ankle  2007 November 9th
Gary Neville Injury Calf Muscle Strain  2007 November 6th
Paul Scholes Injury Knee Injury  2007 October 23rd
Nemanja Vidic Injury Concussion  2007 October 19th
John O'Shea Injury Thigh Muscle Strain  2007 October 19th
Louis Saha Injury Knee Injury  2007 October 10th
Wes Brown Injury Knee Injury  2007 October 5th
Michael Carrick Injury Arm/Elbow Injury  2007 October 4th
Owen Hargreaves Injury Jumpers Knee  2007 October 3rd
Edwin Van Der Sar Injury Ankle/Foot Injury  2007 September 30th
Mikael Silvestre Injury ACL Knee Injury  2007 September 17th
Darren Fletcher Injury Broken Leg  2007 September 14th
John O'Shea Injury Knee Injury  2007 September 14th
Owen Hargreaves Injury Thigh Muscle Strain  2007 September 11th
Ryan Giggs Injury Hamstring Injury  2007 September 3rd
Edwin Van Der Sar Injury Ankle/Foot Injury  2007 August 24th
Anderson Injury Hamstring Injury  2007 August 17th
Wayne Rooney Injury Metatarsal Fracture  2007 August 12th
Gary Neville Injury Thigh Muscle Strain  2007 August 10th
Dong Fangzhuo Injury Sprained Ankle  2007 July 30th
Paul Scholes Injury Knee Injury  2007 July 23rd
Owen Hargreaves Injury Jumpers Knee  2007 July 19th
Ben Foster Injury ACL Knee Injury  2007 June 18th
Louis Saha Injury Knee Injury  2007 June 15th


Found one

One word Fella obsessed !  you are in dire need of a holiday ,so why don't you pack your bags and go and chill on a beach somewhere ,but don't forget your little stat book or the proverbial soapbox you perpetually take a stance on .
I listen to fans like you at Anfield all the time and while your bleating and whining about our team ,we are being out sung by teams who have never won  sweet fa, but still have the passion to support their team in a show of audible voracity .
I consider your posts, whilst I hasten to add not all, a mite condescending, and to list all The Mancs injuries certainly smacks of desperation .
I suggest you remember the times you so affectionately recollect,, and hark back when true fans frequented our hallowed ground, and acted with the dignity, that used to set us apart from the rest so spectacularly, that our fans were once revered around the world.

[redbeergoggles]

Rafa will always get my support , no matter what.

I am not saying he has not made mistakes, he has, he has made a lot if we are being honest but he has also done a great deal of good at the club and I feel, if given time and the right resources then he can make us great again.

He came into the club when I feel we were in a very dangerous position and we were in serious danger of becoming a run of the mill Premiership team, our team was filled with the likes of Biscan, Troare, Diao, Dudek, Le Tallec, Diouf, Sinama, Smicer, Kirkland, Baros and had just inherited Dibs Cisse in exhange for our only goal threat up front - Michael Owen. When we sacked Houllier - which I was pleased with - I was extremely worried about how much money he had wasted building a below average team. I will always be thankful for what Gerard done for the club whilst he was with us but that last year, we scraped fourth and we looked a million miles away from a decent football team.

Rafa came in and to be honest he didn't start that well, he seemed to be finding out his best team and we were very inconsistent and finished 5th in the end - not good but I would say ANY manager coming in to that situation with that enviroment would struggle to finish in the top 4, and I would put my hat that NO OTHER manager would of gone on to WIN THE CHAMPIONS LEAGUE as Rafa did. That Champions League win done so so much for Liverpool - it meant most importantly of all we kept the best player on the planet - Steven Gerrard, it meant we were in the Champions League the year after and most importantly of all it reminded everyone Liverpool were back and many many footballers and fans all over the world grew to respect and admire us again. How many players have spoke of about the Champions League in interviews when signing for us?

The next season he brought in some more of his own players, finished very very well and in other seasons his points total that year would of won the league, (and he won the F.A Cup).

Season after, Champions League final - 3rd in the league.

This season, probably the most difficult of all with all the infighting and he secured 4th and done well in the Champions league.


It seems its a case of we don't know how good we have got it at present with some fans because I can't honestly think of one manager who could do a better job in the current climate - with the exception of possibly Mr Mourinho.

That a look hard honest look at the situation we were in when he took over and were we are now and can anyone honestly say we have not come on leaps and bounds, look at the expectations each year, we expect to challenge for the league  - we haven't yet - but we expect it, did you in 2004? we expect to get to the latter stages of Champions League each year, how often did that happen in the previous 10 years before rafa?!!?!  Look at the squad, yes we have some dead wood, but not anywhere near as much as when he took over - we have about 4 to 5 players we need to cast off compared to 10 - 12 when he took over, and his net spend compared to the Man Uniteds and chelsea's of this world - the only 2 teams to have done better than Rafa in the league averaging over his 4 years is a lot lot less.

I feel at present, rafa has made mistakes but he has brought us on a hell of a lot and if he was put on a level playing field with Chelsea and Man Utd - I feel he would have the edge of each of them.

I'd give him another 4 years, easily.

Well said fella .