Liverpool FC Forum

[Leonmc0708]

More important for me than any change of manager would be a change of our so called fans.

Some of the posters in this thread are a fuc.king embarrasment to this football club.

The fact that some claim to have followed us for years is even more worrying.

Perhaps its the so called fans who accept that 4 seasons without a challenge to be acceptable are the ones we should be worried about. The so called fans who accept mediocrity in the league and think that a good cup run in ONE competition is good enough.

Perhaps if they had been following the club a little longer then they would have memories of when we wern't happy coming second nevermind 4th. Perhaps then they wouldn't embarrass the club and the players by coming out with the same sad excuses year after year.

Perhaps they have so little faith in the team that its easier to accept that they arn't good enough, rather than that they were never given the chance to succeed by actions and decisions made off the pitch rather than on it?

Embarrassing ? Coming out with the same excuses year after year is embarrassing!   

Or maybe you prefer the league to be just another "option"

Support is the operative word in your post, although I am not sure what affect your snipes on the internet have on the teams performances.

I have no problem with suggestions that Rafa made mistakes, I have said so on many occasions.

However if anyone thinks that he is not the best manager we have had for the last 15 years I disagree. We used to have one World class player at best in our team (Owen then Gerrard) we now have 3 (Torres, Gerrard and Mascherano)  with the possibility of others (Babel, Reina, Agger, Skrtel, Lucas) getting close to that level. We are recognised and revered across Europe once more and we have progressed into a team that many (you included I think Saint) think have got what it takes to win the league.

All this from a standing start, with United light years ahead, Wenger many actual years ahead and chelseas millions and millions of pounds ahead.

Its a problem that people think back to times when "we where not happy coming second" and think that JUST BECAUSE we where once the best side in the country we have a god given right to win the league.

Get real, take your head out of your ar.se and welcome to the very very different world of PRemiership football.

Its not like days of old when anyone could come up and have a crack at the league, there is a group of three teams who have won the league in the last 16 years, Blackburn bought the title once(and by one point from United), and Chelsea only had any chance from 4 years ago when the Roman millions came into play.

The millions and millions in football, (which we never took a hold of during our high times but thats another essay) have altered the face dramatically.

When Rafa came in, the closest we had finished to the top spot was when Houllier manged to get us to 7 points of the winners Arsenal. After that he struggled to improve on it.
Why was this ? this was down to the unbeliveable financial constraints we have to operate under.

We spend the 3rd or 4th most in the league over the last ten yewars.

We pay 4th most in the league (wages wise) over the last ten years.

We are 3rd/4th.

anyone see the trend ?

[laza]

er Saint so what would have happened if it at the start of the season Rafa had said we got bugger all chance of winning the league with the squad i have ?

er laza Rafa has already played down talks of winning the title next season, acknowledging its the hardest title to win and would be his greatest achievement in football yet.

Personally I dont mind Rafa playing down our chances, as I personally feel as though its a bit of reverse psychology more than anything.

Last season though he went out and was posititive about our chances, so maybe this year hes going to try something different in the media. Of course by playing down the chances he is in a better position come May, in that if we fail to challenge again. He can say 'see I told you so, I didnt get the funds during the summer of\r the players I wanted'. If he does make a title challenge or even at this stage the unthinkable and actually win the f.ucking thing, he'll look like a genius.

Who care what gets said to the press at start of  a season Bam man, we didnt challenge  after Rafa said we would...........wow stop the presses

Any fan isnt going to be happy we havent challenged for the title in last 4 seasons, how about the last 18. Anyone would think Rafa took over the club straight after Dalglish.
By time Houiller reign came to an end, I was just glad we were getting fourth place and frankly the excuses like the pitch wasnt cut right were just wearing a bit thin .

Now im gutted that we didnt put in a bigger challenge after what I thought would be the season as well. 
It may sound strange but its thanks to Rafa I now have that expectation and am gutted. Maybe some of fans with long memories especially those who hate comparsions with Ferge and Mancs should remember the  last 18 and not just last 4 seasons.






.

[66-1112520797]

More important for me than any change of manager would be a change of our so called fans.

Some of the posters in this thread are a fuc.king embarrasment to this football club.

The fact that some claim to have followed us for years is even more worrying.

Perhaps its the so called fans who accept that 4 seasons without a challenge to be acceptable are the ones we should be worried about. The so called fans who accept mediocrity in the league and think that a good cup run in ONE competition is good enough.

Perhaps if they had been following the club a little longer then they would have memories of when we wern't happy coming second nevermind 4th. Perhaps then they wouldn't embarrass the club and the players by coming out with the same sad excuses year after year.

Perhaps they have so little faith in the team that its easier to accept that they arn't good enough, rather than that they were never given the chance to succeed by actions and decisions made off the pitch rather than on it?

Embarrassing ? Coming out with the same excuses year after year is embarrassing!   

Or maybe you prefer the league to be just another "option"

Support is the operative word in your post, although I am not sure what affect your snipes on the internet have on the teams performances.

I have no problem with suggestions that Rafa made mistakes, I have said so on many occasions.

However if anyone thinks that he is not the best manager we have had for the last 15 years I disagree. We used to have one World class player at best in our team (Owen then Gerrard) we now have 3 (Torres, Gerrard and Mascherano)  with the possibility of others (Babel, Reina, Agger, Skrtel, Lucas) getting close to that level. We are recognised and revered across Europe once more and we have progressed into a team that many (you included I think Saint) think have got what it takes to win the league.

All this from a standing start, with United light years ahead, Wenger many actual years ahead and chelseas millions and millions of pounds ahead.

Its a problem that people think back to times when "we where not happy coming second" and think that JUST BECAUSE we where once the best side in the country we have a god given right to win the league.

Get real, take your head out of your ar.se and welcome to the very very different world of PRemiership football.

Its not like days of old when anyone could come up and have a crack at the league, there is a group of three teams who have won the league in the last 16 years, Blackburn bought the title once(and by one point from United), and Chelsea only had any chance from 4 years ago when the Roman millions came into play.

The millions and millions in football, (which we never took a hold of during our high times but thats another essay) have altered the face dramatically.

When Rafa came in, the closest we had finished to the top spot was when Houllier manged to get us to 7 points of the winners Arsenal. After that he struggled to improve on it.
Why was this ? this was down to the unbeliveable financial constraints we have to operate under.

We spend the 3rd or 4th most in the league over the last ten yewars.

We pay 4th most in the league (wages wise) over the last ten years.

We are 3rd/4th.

anyone see the trend ?

comment.

[Rafa D]

Rafa will always get my support , no matter what.

I am not saying he has not made mistakes, he has, he has made a lot if we are being honest but he has also done a great deal of good at the club and I feel, if given time and the right resources then he can make us great again.

He came into the club when I feel we were in a very dangerous position and we were in serious danger of becoming a run of the mill Premiership team, our team was filled with the likes of Biscan, Troare, Diao, Dudek, Le Tallec, Diouf, Sinama, Smicer, Kirkland, Baros and had just inherited Dibs Cisse in exhange for our only goal threat up front - Michael Owen. When we sacked Houllier - which I was pleased with - I was extremely worried about how much money he had wasted building a below average team. I will always be thankful for what Gerard done for the club whilst he was with us but that last year, we scraped fourth and we looked a million miles away from a decent football team.

Rafa came in and to be honest he didn't start that well, he seemed to be finding out his best team and we were very inconsistent and finished 5th in the end - not good but I would say ANY manager coming in to that situation with that enviroment would struggle to finish in the top 4, and I would put my hat that NO OTHER manager would of gone on to WIN THE CHAMPIONS LEAGUE as Rafa did. That Champions League win done so so much for Liverpool - it meant most importantly of all we kept the best player on the planet - Steven Gerrard, it meant we were in the Champions League the year after and most importantly of all it reminded everyone Liverpool were back and many many footballers and fans all over the world grew to respect and admire us again. How many players have spoke of about the Champions League in interviews when signing for us?

The next season he brought in some more of his own players, finished very very well and in other seasons his points total that year would of won the league, (and he won the F.A Cup).

Season after, Champions League final - 3rd in the league.

This season, probably the most difficult of all with all the infighting and he secured 4th and done well in the Champions league.


It seems its a case of we don't know how good we have got it at present with some fans because I can't honestly think of one manager who could do a better job in the current climate - with the exception of possibly Mr Mourinho.

That a look hard honest look at the situation we were in when he took over and were we are now and can anyone honestly say we have not come on leaps and bounds, look at the expectations each year, we expect to challenge for the league  - we haven't yet - but we expect it, did you in 2004? we expect to get to the latter stages of Champions League each year, how often did that happen in the previous 10 years before rafa?!!?!  Look at the squad, yes we have some dead wood, but not anywhere near as much as when he took over - we have about 4 to 5 players we need to cast off compared to 10 - 12 when he took over, and his net spend compared to the Man Uniteds and chelsea's of this world - the only 2 teams to have done better than Rafa in the league averaging over his 4 years is a lot lot less.

I feel at present, rafa has made mistakes but he has brought us on a hell of a lot and if he was put on a level playing field with Chelsea and Man Utd - I feel he would have the edge of each of them.

I'd give him another 4 years, easily.

[red37]

Good post Doddy.

[bunglemark2]

4 years ? Gimme a break...

[LFC2007]

The thing I can't understand about all the arguments that our squad wasn't good enough and that we couldn't make a challenge because we needed to spend lots more money on players, is that RAFA said before the start of last season that we had a squad GOOD ENOUGH to challenge.

So are these people saying Rafa doesn't know what he's talking about, or did Rafa just FK UP with too many mistakes?

Even if as a manager, you believe your team have only a slim chance of winning the title, you wouldn't come out and say that for the sake of team morale. At the beginning of the season, it'd be naive at best to come out and say 'my team isn't good enough to challenge'.

He probably thought we had a fair chance of challenging and wanted to keep morale high - belief in his players high, but he also probably overrestimated the ability of certain players too.

[account deleted by request]

Snipes they may be but at least I am attempting to tell the truth, rather than fool myself and others that things are great when in reality with the team we have we performed abysmally for much of the season.

To say he is the best manager we have had for 15 years says little when its EIGHTEEN YEARS and counting since we last won the title. A bit like saying Riise is world class because he's better than Traore and Vignal.

Whats the point in assembling a team of world class talent if every season you handicap them by the decisions that you make so that we are still waiting for a title challenge.Our performances against our rivals are poor and our results against them even more so.

The Liverpool teams and players of the past that you dismiss so blithly, came closer to winning the league than this team of superstars, surely that tells you something, and don't think for a moment that the manc team of 2007/8 is a patch on the manc teams of the past.

We spoke proudly of the best midfield in the world, where are they now, BEING SOLD ABROAD, while we still wait patiently for the right winger that was identified as his first priority on his arrival 4 seasons ago! 

Only 4 teams have won the league in the last 16 years - and how does that differ greatly from the previous 16 years when 5 teams won it? Apart from Liverpool won it 9 times that is!

We may not have won the league under Evans but we certainly managed a title challenge!

There is no mystery as to why we fell away under Houllier and didn't progress AFTER FINISHING SECOND, he bought badly - simple as! when he bought Diouf, Diao AND Cheyrou. In just the same way that we fell away after 2006 when Rafa bought poorly when he bought Bellamy,Palletta, Pennant and Kuyt. If you buy badly today, tomorrow or even in the distant past when we actually won the title you can be expected to pay a price.

Yes, I can see how money guarantees success, thats why we lost to those famous big spenders Wigan, Reading and Barnsley.It doesn't explain why after 4 seasons we have still not managed to beat the mancs in the league, even some of the "poor" clubs have managed that! Strangely we don't seem to complain about our lack of money when we play the same top English teams in the cups, perhaps money doesn't count as much then?

Maybe we shouldn't bother trying to buy better players, going off your arguement ALL WE HAVE TO DO, IS PAY THEM MORE THAN OUR RIVALS AND THE LEAGUE IS OURS. See the trend?

Rafa has bought over £100million worth of new players since 2006,(£70million last season alone!) to finish lower in the league and with less points (and without a cup or title challenge)

Yet every season we are "only 2 players short" of a title challenge, except maybe this season when the average seems to be 4 players short?

Maybe we are just one short..... a new manager?

As I have said, if he doesn't manage a title challenge this season he should go.

[The Manhattan Project]

Honestly, I think we've got more chance of being caught by Everton than we do of getting closer to the title.

Watch Manure play a team like Wigan or Bolton or whatever and there is a drastic difference in aggression. They believe they will score with every attack. We on the other hand are plodding along.

Pass pass float a ball.....it gets cleared.

[account deleted by request]

The thing I can't understand about all the arguments that our squad wasn't good enough and that we couldn't make a challenge because we needed to spend lots more money on players, is that RAFA said before the start of last season that we had a squad GOOD ENOUGH to challenge.

So are these people saying Rafa doesn't know what he's talking about, or did Rafa just FK UP with too many mistakes?

Even if as a manager, you believe your team have only a slim chance of winning the title, you wouldn't come out and say that for the sake of team morale. At the beginning of the season, it'd be naive at best to come out and say 'my team isn't good enough to challenge'.

He probably thought we had a fair chance of challenging and wanted to keep morale high - belief in his players high, but he also probably overrestimated the ability of certain players too.

So for next season he doesn't care about team moral as the league seems to be only an "option" now.

The truth is the team was good enough to challenge last season, and we failed.

[Leonmc0708]

in reality with the team we have we performed abysmally for much of the season.

Read that again and then think about what it says.

[Leonmc0708]

Snipes they may be but at least I am attempting to tell the truth, rather than fool myself and others that things are great when in reality with the team we have we performed abysmally for much of the season.

To say he is the best manager we have had for 15 years says little when its EIGHTEEN YEARS and counting since we last won the title. A bit like saying Riise is world class because he's better than Traore and Vignal.

Whats the point in assembling a team of world class talent if every season you handicap them by the decisions that you make so that we are still waiting for a title challenge.Our performances against our rivals are poor and our results against them even more so.

The Liverpool teams and players of the past that you dismiss so blithly, came closer to winning the league than this team of superstars, surely that tells you something, and don't think for a moment that the manc team of 2007/8 is a patch on the manc teams of the past.

We spoke proudly of the best midfield in the world, where are they now, BEING SOLD ABROAD, while we still wait patiently for the right winger that was identified as his first priority on his arrival 4 seasons ago! 

Only 4 teams have won the league in the last 16 years - and how does that differ greatly from the previous 16 years when 5 teams won it? Apart from Liverpool won it 9 times that is!

We may not have won the league under Evans but we certainly managed a title challenge!

There is no mystery as to why we fell away under Houllier and didn't progress AFTER FINISHING SECOND, he bought badly - simple as! when he bought Diouf, Diao AND Cheyrou. In just the same way that we fell away after 2006 when Rafa bought poorly when he bought Bellamy,Palletta, Pennant and Kuyt. If you buy badly today, tomorrow or even in the distant past when we actually won the title you can be expected to pay a price.

Yes, I can see how money guarantees success, thats why we lost to those famous big spenders Wigan, Reading and Barnsley.It doesn't explain why after 4 seasons we have still not managed to beat the mancs in the league, even some of the "poor" clubs have managed that! Strangely we don't seem to complain about our lack of money when we play the same top English teams in the cups, perhaps money doesn't count as much then?

Maybe we shouldn't bother trying to buy better players, going off your arguement ALL WE HAVE TO DO, IS PAY THEM MORE THAN OUR RIVALS AND THE LEAGUE IS OURS. See the trend?

Rafa has bought over £100million worth of new players since 2006,(£70million last season alone!) to finish lower in the league and with less points (and without a cup or title challenge)

Yet every season we are "only 2 players short" of a title challenge, except maybe this season when the average seems to be 4 players short?

Maybe we are just one short..... a new manager?

As I have said, if he doesn't manage a title challenge this season he should go.

If your going to be pedantic then we can only have a slanging match and not a debate.

[account deleted by request]

in reality with the team we have we performed abysmally for much of the season.

Read that again and then think about what it says.

I know what it says, the problem seems to be you can't or won't understand what it says!

We had a good enough team to challenge for the title, but due to being handicapped by off field decisions we didn't perform well, in fact we performed abysmally for much of the season.

How many of our players played to their best level ? How many games did we struggle to beat teams we should have walked all over. How many of our performances were of such a poor standard? Off the top of my head I can name Besiktas, Marseille, Luton, Barnsley, Mancs, Wigan, Birmingham, Middlesbro', Reading, Derby (even though we won)Spurs.

Now read it again and THINK about it!

Any clearer?

[Lando_Griffin]

Why do people find it necessary to put their depression on other people?

If you want to be a miserable git who just wants to highlight the problems whilst ignoring the counters - fine.

Do it on your own time, rather than posting it to try and p*ss people off.

[account deleted by request]

Snipes they may be but at least I am attempting to tell the truth, rather than fool myself and others that things are great when in reality with the team we have we performed abysmally for much of the season.

To say he is the best manager we have had for 15 years says little when its EIGHTEEN YEARS and counting since we last won the title. A bit like saying Riise is world class because he's better than Traore and Vignal.

Whats the point in assembling a team of world class talent if every season you handicap them by the decisions that you make so that we are still waiting for a title challenge.Our performances against our rivals are poor and our results against them even more so.

The Liverpool teams and players of the past that you dismiss so blithly, came closer to winning the league than this team of superstars, surely that tells you something, and don't think for a moment that the manc team of 2007/8 is a patch on the manc teams of the past.

We spoke proudly of the best midfield in the world, where are they now, BEING SOLD ABROAD, while we still wait patiently for the right winger that was identified as his first priority on his arrival 4 seasons ago! 

Only 4 teams have won the league in the last 16 years - and how does that differ greatly from the previous 16 years when 5 teams won it? Apart from Liverpool won it 9 times that is!

We may not have won the league under Evans but we certainly managed a title challenge!

There is no mystery as to why we fell away under Houllier and didn't progress AFTER FINISHING SECOND, he bought badly - simple as! when he bought Diouf, Diao AND Cheyrou. In just the same way that we fell away after 2006 when Rafa bought poorly when he bought Bellamy,Palletta, Pennant and Kuyt. If you buy badly today, tomorrow or even in the distant past when we actually won the title you can be expected to pay a price.

Yes, I can see how money guarantees success, thats why we lost to those famous big spenders Wigan, Reading and Barnsley.It doesn't explain why after 4 seasons we have still not managed to beat the mancs in the league, even some of the "poor" clubs have managed that! Strangely we don't seem to complain about our lack of money when we play the same top English teams in the cups, perhaps money doesn't count as much then?

Maybe we shouldn't bother trying to buy better players, going off your arguement ALL WE HAVE TO DO, IS PAY THEM MORE THAN OUR RIVALS AND THE LEAGUE IS OURS. See the trend?

Rafa has bought over £100million worth of new players since 2006,(£70million last season alone!) to finish lower in the league and with less points (and without a cup or title challenge)

Yet every season we are "only 2 players short" of a title challenge, except maybe this season when the average seems to be 4 players short?

Maybe we are just one short..... a new manager?

As I have said, if he doesn't manage a title challenge this season he should go.

If your going to be pedantic then we can only have a slanging match and not a debate.

If you can't counter just say its pedantic eh?