Liverpool FC Forum

[account deleted by request]

I can't be bothered multi quoting again Leon, but I think you are too easily pleased mate. We had a great chance last season to really make our mark in the title race. The mancs started badly, Chelsea had internal problems that made ours look like a bed of roses, changed manager, player revolt etc etc. Arsenal had just sold their best player, after a couple of seasons selling their best players.

We got a new striker that has done much much better than anyone could have hoped for,we finish the season with a string of wins, and all it did was hide the fact that for most of the season we p!ssed chance after chance away with a stream of poor performances.

We have obtained less points than we did two years ago, finished one place lower to a team that has spent much less than us(if you are going with the money arguement?) and you don't see this as a problem?

My point about the team wasn't meant as an insult ,just as a way of looking at the problem. I think the team was and is good enough to challenge for the league, you obviously don't. If we had scored more goals. If we had beaten the mancs home and away and Chelsea and Arsenal we would have won the league. The point is we didn't and truthfully we didn't come close to beating the mancs home or way. I do think we were good enough to beat the Wigan's, Reading's and Birmingham's though.

I think Rafa could have done better, I think he made too many bad decisions that cost us points and maybe momentum and confidence too. Thats my opinion. You may think we needed another matchwinner or it was Aggers injury that cost us. I would agree that another matchwinner would have been handy and that we missed Agger, but I think at the end of the day with the players we had available we should and could have mounted a challenge. (not won it)

I also think that if you had asked most people in October if we would mount a title challenge they would have said yes!

[bigmick]

But im not having saint coming on here banging bad stuff about rafa and basically cutting LFC down to the bone!
Especially when he talks and produces things he gets elsewhere!!

That's just it though Barry, Saint wasn't cutting anyone to the bone, least of all Liverpool Football Club. The bit that irks me is that those who are died in the wool "In Rafa we Trusters" seem to think they are the living blueprint of a "real fan". Now having attended only a couple of Home games and probably a couple of dozen away games in my whole life, I've never ever claimed to be a season ticket holder and as loyal a matchgoer as some on here. When the scouse fans come on before and after a derby and say how much it means to them, I've never ever tried to pretend it gets me in the same way. When people who have attended football matches occasionally give an insight into horrific incidents which have taken place, I stay out of it. The reason is it would be silly and disrepectful to pretend otherwise. 

Despite though not being a season ticket holder, I like to think I've got a bit of a clue about the beautiful game, just the odd snippet I've picked up along the way. I reckon Saint does too, and no doubt you do, your good self. Why is it then, when somebody holds an opinion which is different to the one we subscribe to that we seek to attack him? We don't attack what he's saying, we call the view of such fans "embarrassing' or "depressing".

That's the bit that gets me. Support Rafa all you want, give him ten more years in your own head if want and I'll disagree with you till the cows come home. I wouldn't think your views were embarassing though, nor depressing.

[LFC2007]

The thing I can't understand about all the arguments that our squad wasn't good enough and that we couldn't make a challenge because we needed to spend lots more money on players, is that RAFA said before the start of last season that we had a squad GOOD ENOUGH to challenge.

So are these people saying Rafa doesn't know what he's talking about, or did Rafa just FK UP with too many mistakes?

Even if as a manager, you believe your team have only a slim chance of winning the title, you wouldn't come out and say that for the sake of team morale. At the beginning of the season, it'd be naive at best to come out and say 'my team isn't good enough to challenge'.

He probably thought we had a fair chance of challenging and wanted to keep morale high - belief in his players high, but he also probably overrestimated the ability of certain players too.

So for next season he doesn't care about team moral as the league seems to be only an "option" now.

No, it remains f*cking possibility. We have a chance of challenging, quantifying that chance is difficult.

[LFC2007]

As people are happy to keep reminding us Fergie didn't win it for 7 years......... but he did challenge in 2! 

That's simply utter sh!te, he challenged in 6 seasons.

[Number 9]

I dont have cows?What are ya talking about?

And is this the saint appreciation society?

Never mind im off to get a ride!!

When ya think about it get the ball in the net!
I will now!

[account deleted by request]

The thing I can't understand about all the arguments that our squad wasn't good enough and that we couldn't make a challenge because we needed to spend lots more money on players, is that RAFA said before the start of last season that we had a squad GOOD ENOUGH to challenge.

So are these people saying Rafa doesn't know what he's talking about, or did Rafa just FK UP with too many mistakes?

Even if as a manager, you believe your team have only a slim chance of winning the title, you wouldn't come out and say that for the sake of team morale. At the beginning of the season, it'd be naive at best to come out and say 'my team isn't good enough to challenge'.

He probably thought we had a fair chance of challenging and wanted to keep morale high - belief in his players high, but he also probably overrestimated the ability of certain players too.

So for next season he doesn't care about team moral as the league seems to be only an "option" now.

No, it remains f*cking possibility. We have a chance of challenging, quantifying that chance is difficult.

Rafa didn't seem to have a problem quantifying it last season to "keep up moral" , but this year he has a problem quantifying it ?

[Sabre]

Come on. I'm much closer to those who support Rafa, but FFS, it's just natural that some true fans do not share the same opinion about our manager.

Let's discuss that with no dramas. S@int has the right to be tired of the current manager!! he's a fan! and which fan of the world hasn't been tired of a manager at some point!

Chill out, cojones! 

It's a good point Sabes and well put. I've copped a fair bit myself though on here over the years, what I do for a living, where I live, where I'm from, whether or not I manage a Sunday League team, how many games I've been to etc etc, but it annoyed me what Saint got there. I know he's not on his own. Bob cops it sometimes for being Canadian, living in Canada, not attending matches etc and I think that's wrong too.

This has been and is a good thread, it's not a Rafa bashing session save for the occasional piece of flatulance from Heimdall (and in fairness to him he cops his share and takes it) and there wasn't any need for all that.

You know, in a local Spanish team, you can have 4 coaches a season . As a local Spanish fan, I've had 16 sackings in 4 years. It's a miracle I remember the names of the coaches.

So, in a way, it's very funny for me that some posters are slaughtered because they want a change after 4 seasons 
In the other hand, those of us who don't want changes, are not necessarily "blinded" everytime.

I think that some of you that have legitimate arguements are getting unfair stick for that. I think we can disagree about Rafa and everything without getting into loyalties and procedence and what we do for a living . (1)



(1) (FWIW I don't know what's all the fuss with having a shop, my father had a shop, and I find yours a modern business, which is nice, because instead of old women buying lettuces, you have interesting women as customers and you  even learn about their tastes, you clever man!)

[account deleted by request]

As people are happy to keep reminding us Fergie didn't win it for 7 years......... but he did challenge in 2! 

That's simply utter sh!te, he challenged in 6 seasons.

His second season he came second which I think is closer than we have been for a number of years.

[bigmick]

Whatever the history of Fergie's achievements or otherwise, to my mind we were more than good enough to mount a challenge last season and we didn't. I know I'm in the minority, but I think we were also good enough the season before as well. Assuming that whatever signings and sales we make this season don't significantly weaken us, then we should be good enough next season to launch a challenge also.

If we don't, then it seems to me you are in one camp or the other. You are either in the "Rafa has been here five years and hasn't yet managed to build a team which is capable of challenging for the title" camp. Or you are in the "Rafa has been here five years and has managed to build a team which is capable of challenging for the title" camp. If you are in the first lot, then the question begs to be asked, will he ever do so and if so how long do you wait? If you are in the second camp, (which I've been in for two years now) you ask yourself, "if the team is in fact good enough, then why haven't we challenged?". Thats the point of the thread I guess.

[LFC2007]

The thing I can't understand about all the arguments that our squad wasn't good enough and that we couldn't make a challenge because we needed to spend lots more money on players, is that RAFA said before the start of last season that we had a squad GOOD ENOUGH to challenge.

So are these people saying Rafa doesn't know what he's talking about, or did Rafa just FK UP with too many mistakes?

Even if as a manager, you believe your team have only a slim chance of winning the title, you wouldn't come out and say that for the sake of team morale. At the beginning of the season, it'd be naive at best to come out and say 'my team isn't good enough to challenge'.

He probably thought we had a fair chance of challenging and wanted to keep morale high - belief in his players high, but he also probably overrestimated the ability of certain players too.

So for next season he doesn't care about team moral as the league seems to be only an "option" now.

No, it remains f*cking possibility. We have a chance of challenging, quantifying that chance is difficult.

Rafa didn't seem to have a problem quantifying it last season to "keep up moral" , but this year he has a problem quantifying it ?

I don't know what he said last season, nor do I really care.

It's f*cking hard to quantify how much of a chance we have of challenging for the title as we don't know which players we'll have signed by the beginning of next season, it's also tough to forecast the levels of your opponents.

He's saying it's an option, a possibility, as it always has and always will be.

[LFC2007]

As people are happy to keep reminding us Fergie didn't win it for 7 years......... but he did challenge in 2! 

That's simply utter sh!te, he challenged in 6 seasons.

His second season he came second which I think is closer than we have been for a number of years.

They were miles behind us throughout that season, and finished 9 pts behind. You could even have said they were out of it by November of that year when they were 14 pts off the top.

[Sabre]

As people are happy to keep reminding us Fergie didn't win it for 7 years......... but he did challenge in 2! 

That's simply utter sh!te, he challenged in 6 seasons.

His second season he came second which I think is closer than we have been for a number of years.

I was gifted a book of Ferguson (some people around here do not know about rivalries and they think you'll like a book of Ferguson because it's english football), and Ferguson did receive stick those seasons, and if you research a bit on google, you can find the quotes of Ferguson about these years.

He too was told by the press that he changed the team too much and that he wouldn't bring Man U the league. He was told that he wasn't going to be as succesful as other scott managers. But Ferguson was of the thought that things had to be changed in the club in order to bring better players and succeed.

Yes, he might get closer one year or two to challenge, but then, and unlike now, the premiership wasn't the strongest league in Europe. So no direct comparisons can be done. The amount of points that the above two teams had this season, if you compare to other league's champions, are impressive. They've done very well. But Rafa is not responsible of that... it's a shame they do so well, but fact is they're doing well.

We do not have to look that though. We have to focus on our team, and make and answer the questions you have asked before.

[bigmick]

It's f*cking hard to quantify how much of a chance we have of challenging for the title as we don't know which players we'll have signed by the beginning of next season, it's also tough to forecast the levels of your opponents.

No it's not, it's a piece of p!ss infact 


We've got absolutely no chance whatsoever of winning it, well perhaps a chance which is so infinitessimally small it is rendered almost negligable. This is not Rafa's fault, it would be so regardless of who is in charge. The reason is that in order for us to actually win it, too many coincidences need to converge at the same time. Torres and Gerrard need to stay fit all season for a start., with both playing absolutely Ronaldo style out of their skins from beginning to end. Barry and whoever else we buy needs to come in and settle instantly, while we need Man Utd and Chelsea to have similarly average seasonal points totals for them next season. Arsenal need to once again implode twoards the end, we need to have an earlyish departure from the Champions League, and Rafa needs to realise before he has exausted all his styling options (which normally occurs around February) that the team needs to find rhythm, momentum and consistency to play to it's optimum, and to do so it helps if you pick somewhere near your strongest team from game to game. CAN I JUST SAY AT THIS POINT THAT I AM NOT SUGGESTING WE PLAY THE SAME TEAM IN EVERY SINGLE GAME, NOR THAT IF WE DO WE WILL P!SS THE LEAGUE.

Now the chances of all those things happening at once are tiny.

To challenge though, we broadly need to stay within half a dozen points of the top of the table until the last three or four matches. If we do that, at some point between Christmas and Easter the team which is leading will lose one, we'll win on the corresponding weekend and we'll be within three points. At that stage, somebody will produce one of those threads where it lists their remaining fixtures against ours and we'll all do a calculation based upon those matches, and no doubt vote into a poll. It'll all be ultimately pointless of course as none of us will get more than 20% of the results right and we'll still probably finsih third or fourth, but at least we will be allowed to dream for a couple of weeks.

The chances of a challenge given the fact we have best goalkeeper, the best central midfielder, the best striker and a pretty good defence ought be high bordering on a certainty I should think. Mind you it didn't happen last season so who knows.


As for what the other teams are going to do in terms of purchases, whoever they buy and whatever they do, there are a couple of givens. Firstly, they will only put eleven blokes on the pitch at any given time, (Ok this is occasionally debateable in the case of Man Utd) as that is the rules. Secondly, the team that wins the Premiership will get around 83-90 points. Given that, I guess we need to be aiming to secure as near to that as poss.

[LFC2007]

It's f*cking hard to quantify how much of a chance we have of challenging for the title as we don't know which players we'll have signed by the beginning of next season, it's also tough to forecast the levels of your opponents.

No it's not, it's a piece of p!ss infact 


We've got absolutely no chance whatsoever of winning it, well perhaps a chance which is so infinitessimally small it is rendered almost negligable. This is not Rafa's fault, it would be so regardless of who is in charge. The reason is that in order for us to actually win it, too many coincidences need to converge at the same time. Torres and Gerrard need to stay fit all season for a start., with both playing absolutely Ronaldo style out of their skins from beginning to end. Barry and whoever else we buy needs to come in and settle instantly, while we need Man Utd and Chelsea to have similarly average seasonal points totals for them next season. Arsenal need to once again implode twoards the end, we need to have an earlyish departure from the Champions League, and Rafa needs to realise before he has exausted all his styling options (which normally occurs around February) that the team needs to find rhythm, momentum and consistency to play to it's optimum, and to do so it helps if you pick somewhere near your strongest team from game to game. CAN I JUST SAY AT THIS POINT THAT I AM NOT SUGGESTING WE PLAY THE SAME TEAM IN EVERY SINGLE GAME, NOR THAT IF WE DO WE WILL P!SS THE LEAGUE.

Now the chances of all those things happening at once are tiny.

To challenge though, we broadly need to stay within half a dozen points of the top of the table until the last three or four matches. If we do that, at some point the team which is leading will lose one, we'll win on the corresponding weekend and we'll be within three points. At that stage, somebody will produce one of those threads where it lists their remaining fixtures against ours and we'll all do a calculation based upon those matches, and no doubt vote into a poll. It'll all be ultimately pointless of course as none of us will get more than 20% of the results right and we'll still probably finsih third or fourth, but at least we will be allowed to dream for a couple of weeks.

The chances of a challenge given the fact we have best goalkeeper, the best central midfielder, the best striker and a pretty good defence ought be high bordering on a certainty I should think. Mind you it didn't happen last season so who knows.


As for what the other teams are going to do in terms of purchases, whoever they buy and whatever they do, there are a couple of givens. Firstly, they will only put eleven blokes on the pitch at any given time, (Ok this is occasionally debateable in the case of Man Utd) as that is the rules. Secondly, the team that wins the Premiership will get around 83-90 points. Given that, I guess we need to be aiming to secure as near to that as poss.

The premise of your views is essentially that a title challenge depends to a large (the largest possible) extent on Rafa's selection policies, my view is that to a larger extent it depends on who we're able to sign this summer.

Therefore, it's fair to say it's quite difficult to quantify our chances of a challenge- as you certainly can't be sure that Rafa will stick with a more consistent set of line ups, and I can't be certain of who we'll sign. Once the summer's business is complete I may have a better idea of our chances, depending on whether I've seen them play or not.

As for the part about having the best midfielder, goalkeeper, striker. My view is that no amount of quality in a few individual positions can make up for a lack of quality in a number of other positions.

[66-1112520797]

Well its good for the forum we have different views, and I agree with everything S@int and Micky have said.

There are no excuses from them, which is what I like. There are only questions and valid ones, their opinions are similar ti mine on this topic. #hich is why I think they know their football because they agree with me.