Liverpool FC Forum

[66-1112520797]

As for the part about having the best midfielder, goalkeeper, striker. My view is that no amount of quality in a few individual positions can make up for a lack of quality in a number of other positions.

And whos problem/fault is that ?

[LFC2007]

As for the part about having the best midfielder, goalkeeper, striker. My view is that no amount of quality in a few individual positions can make up for a lack of quality in a number of other positions.

And whos problem/fault is that ?

Heimdall's.

[LFC2007]

Does anybody seriously believe that if we had played the same formation/personel which we played in the last three months for the whole season, that we wouldn't have been at some point in the mix for the title? To quote another poster on here, if you don't believe that you need to need to get your head out of your erse and wake up.

Everyone it seems to me thinks that Rafa has spent the 150 million quid fairly well, and the team is much stronger than when he arrived. Everyone accepts that Man Utd and Chelsea have more money than us and that it is going to be difficult for us to WIN the Premiership. All we are asking though, and surely it isn't too much, is that at some time during a five year period we launch a challenge for the title. If at the end of the day we have spent 150 million quid building a team which is never ever going to challenge for the title over a five year period, then to my mind we've wasted our money anyway and should be looking for a change of direction. debate? Some people on here need to grow up.

You shouldn't ridicule others for having an opinion.

[Sabre]

Does anybody seriously believe that if we had played the same formation/personel which we played in the last three months for the whole season, that we wouldn't have been at some point in the mix for the title? To quote another poster on here, if you don't believe that you need to need to get your head out of your erse and wake up.

Everyone it seems to me thinks that Rafa has spent the 150 million quid fairly well, and the team is much stronger than when he arrived. Everyone accepts that Man Utd and Chelsea have more money than us and that it is going to be difficult for us to WIN the Premiership. All we are asking though, and surely it isn't too much, is that at some time during a five year period we launch a challenge for the title. If at the end of the day we have spent 150 million quid building a team which is never ever going to challenge for the title over a five year period, then to my mind we've wasted our money anyway and should be looking for a change of direction. debate? Some people on here need to grow up.

You shouldn't ridicule others for having an opinion.

Not a drama. It's the internet, nobody dies.

When you are a football fan, and you have the sack the manager syndrome, you get impatient. People in Spain get impatient, they ask for the head, then someone in the staff says the coach has all the backing of the board, and the next week is sacked.

Holding that impatience of the sack of the manager syndrome during 2 years and a half shows that Bigmick is probably one of the most self controlled posters you can get in the internet.
Normal fans in my country do not hold that impatience for more than 4 months. I have seen closely about more than 50 sackings so I know how is the state of mind of a football fan. Admiration at the beginning, reasonable doubts in the middle, impatience at the end of the cycle. That's the state of mind of a football fan regarding a manager. Here, many posters do not admit they have the syndrome, because for some reason people in England find that natural state of the fan, unloyal.

A sacking is a natural thing to see. Players adapt quickly to new managers and new trainings, and if they're Spaniards even more (lots of sackings). Normally it's not a big drama and after some changes the new manager manages to get results in a matter of 2 weeks. Sometimes, in 4 weeks they change the team upside down and they start winning.

A sacking in newkit would be like fresh air, new debates, new systems, new signings in summer, end of rotation debate. It's curious that Bigmick admits that a lot of things have to be done well in order to reach 90 points, and at the same time he gives much importance to rotation to explain most of that gap.

Sometimes I regret to be so sure about a sacking won't help us, just for the sake to see how we'd do without the dreaded Rafa rotation. And so that the cycle of the fan starts again, and we're all chuffed with the new manager and a happy family again. But here we go.

[Bad Bob]

I really struggle to see what so much fuss is about.  It's not as though Saint has called Rafa a "clown" or a "clueless idiot."  Rather, he's questioned whether going a fifth year without mounting some sort of challenge for the title is acceptable for a Liverpool Football Club that considers itself one of the elite clubs in world football.  I think it's a fair question to ask but there's another whole season of football to be played before we really need to debate this issue in earnest.  I strongly believe that we will make a fist of it next season, all things being equal, and that this debate will become largely moot.  No point spitting any dummies out at this point...there's still a ways to go yet.

[laza]

Does anybody seriously believe that if we had played the same formation/personel which we played in the last three months for the whole season, that we wouldn't have been at some point in the mix for the title? To quote another poster on here, if you don't believe that you need to need to get your head out of your erse and wake up.

Everyone it seems to me thinks that Rafa has spent the 150 million quid fairly well, and the team is much stronger than when he arrived. Everyone accepts that Man Utd and Chelsea have more money than us and that it is going to be difficult for us to WIN the Premiership. All we are asking though, and surely it isn't too much, is that at some time during a five year period we launch a challenge for the title. If at the end of the day we have spent 150 million quid building a team which is never ever going to challenge for the title over a five year period, then to my mind we've wasted our money anyway and should be looking for a change of direction. debate? Some people on here need to grow up.

You shouldn't ridicule others for having an opinion.

Yeah funny about that I could have sworn someone was prattling on not so long about not ridiculing people for having a different opinion to themselves.

Its funny too that argument now so called pro Rafa crowd are  giving up and wimping out. Not so long ago it was they have rose coloured glasses and wont see anything wrong. Love way people have to pidegon holed into a certain group as well for a nice easy stereotype

This thread seems to have gone down the path of another divisive I lambast your opinion so I can feel so much better about my own self absorbed ego.

[LFC2007]

Does anybody seriously believe that if we had played the same formation/personel which we played in the last three months for the whole season, that we wouldn't have been at some point in the mix for the title? To quote another poster on here, if you don't believe that you need to need to get your head out of your erse and wake up.

Everyone it seems to me thinks that Rafa has spent the 150 million quid fairly well, and the team is much stronger than when he arrived. Everyone accepts that Man Utd and Chelsea have more money than us and that it is going to be difficult for us to WIN the Premiership. All we are asking though, and surely it isn't too much, is that at some time during a five year period we launch a challenge for the title. If at the end of the day we have spent 150 million quid building a team which is never ever going to challenge for the title over a five year period, then to my mind we've wasted our money anyway and should be looking for a change of direction. debate? Some people on here need to grow up.

You shouldn't ridicule others for having an opinion.

It's the internet, nobody dies.

When you are a football fan, and you have the sack the manager syndrome, you get impatient. People in Spain get impatient, they ask for the head, then someone in the staff says the coach has all the backing of the board, and the next week is sacked.

Holding that impatience of the sack of the manager syndrome during 2 years and a half shows that Bigmick is probably one of the most self controlled posters you can get in the internet.
Normal fans in my country do not hold that impatience for more than 4 months. I have seen closely about more than 50 sackings so I know how is the state of mind of a football fan. Admiration at the beginning, reasonable doubts in the middle, impatience at the end of the cycle. That's the state of mind of a football fan regarding a manager. Here, many posters do not admit they have the syndrome, because for some reason people in England find that natural state of the fan, unloyal.

A sacking is a natural thing to see. Players adapt quickly to new managers and new trainings, and if they're Spaniards even more (lots of sackings). Normally it's not a big drama and after some changes the new manager manages to get results in a matter of 2 weeks. Sometimes, in 4 weeks they change the team upside down and they start winning.

A sacking in newkit would be like fresh air, new debates, new systems, new signings in summer, end of rotation debate. It's curious that Bigmick admits that a lot of things have to be done well in order to reach 90 points, and at the same time he gives much importance to rotation to explain most of that gap.

Sometimes I regret to be so sure about a sacking won't help us, just for the sake to see how we'd do without the dreaded Rafa rotation. And so that the cycle of the fan starts again, and we're all chuffed with the new manager and a happy family again. But here we go.

I accept the opinions of those on both sides of the divide, although I disagree with the way in which they're presented. The way in which some posters try and pin everything on Rafa in an attempt to corner another poster into accepting his mistake(s), when actually everybody accepts he makes mistakes.

The portrayal of those who support Rafa as blind followers etc. is embarrassing, as it's quite f*cking obvious that most respectable posters consider very carefully their opinions on Rafa before making them known. I've agonised over my views, as I'm sure others have.

[66-1112520797]

As for the part about having the best midfielder, goalkeeper, striker. My view is that no amount of quality in a few individual positions can make up for a lack of quality in a number of other positions.

And whos problem/fault is that ?

Heimdall's.

[Emerald Red]

What was the largest kitty Rafa was "allowed" to spend in one summer? Surely it wasn't 150 million in one go. So why is this moot point being used as a stick to beat him with? I just think it's valid point to have the right amount of funds early enough to get your prime targets before anyone else does, not being drip fed them.

[bigmick]

Does anybody seriously believe that if we had played the same formation/personel which we played in the last three months for the whole season, that we wouldn't have been at some point in the mix for the title? To quote another poster on here, if you don't believe that you need to need to get your head out of your erse and wake up.

Everyone it seems to me thinks that Rafa has spent the 150 million quid fairly well, and the team is much stronger than when he arrived. Everyone accepts that Man Utd and Chelsea have more money than us and that it is going to be difficult for us to WIN the Premiership. All we are asking though, and surely it isn't too much, is that at some time during a five year period we launch a challenge for the title. If at the end of the day we have spent 150 million quid building a team which is never ever going to challenge for the title over a five year period, then to my mind we've wasted our money anyway and should be looking for a change of direction. debate? Some people on here need to grow up.

You shouldn't ridicule others for having an opinion.[/quote]


Yeah funny about that I could have sworn someone was prattling on not so long about not ridiculing people for having a different opinion to themselves.

Its funny too that argument now so called pro Rafa crowd are  giving up and wimping out. Not so long ago it was they have rose coloured glasses and wont see anything wrong. Love way people have to pidegon holed into a certain group as well for a nice easy stereotype

This thread seems to have gone down the path of another divisive I lambast your opinion so I can feel so much better about my own self absorbed ego.[/quote]
I don't really think I was "prattling on" about ridiculing anybodies opinion to be totally honest. The whole thread has been full of people offering their views and it was a good twelve pages or so in before we got the bits about "so called" fans being an "embarassment" and indeed the club needing to change them.

Having a different opinion to anybody else or indeed everybody else is absolutely fine, it's what forums are for. I just find it a bit wearing when if your not 100% "in Rafa we trust" then for some you're not a "real" fan as much as somebody who is. Suddenly, where you live, how often you go to games and the like becomes a factor and it shouldn't.

I did say in the interests of fairness that Bob, a self confessed "pro-Rafa" man gets stick for the same reason and it's wrong. I also pointed out yet again that I and Saint by all accounts actually think the manager has done a good job in many areas. It doesn't matter how often you say it though, you still get accused by some of "hating" the manager.

The "take their heads out of their erse" line was a fairly unusual riposte from me, but I'm not sure it's really ridiculing anybody from having a different opinion to my own. I simply felt that some fo the stick saint had picked up, over the course of two threads and from a number of people was not really on. As for the self absorbed ego bit, well if it refers to me (and my suspicion is that it probably does) then I don't agree with it but then I guess I wouldn't would I? I don't really do internet slanging matches so we'll just have to agree to differ on that one.

[Igor Zidane]

In fairness to saint , although i don't agree with him . It's not like he's just come to this conclusion , he's been pretty much consistant in his views over the best part of last season . He has made his concerns about rafa's management pretty obvious over an extended period , Mick and bm have been the same ,mick being the longest .

Their all valid points and concerns they have , and if anyone thinks that going to the match on a regular basis stops you or prevents you from having these concerns are dillusional.

All you have to do is go the ale ouse before or after the match and the same points that the lads mentioned are being discussed on a regular basis .

We all have one thing in common (and i include the mad norwegian in this)is we want the best for LFC.

Now i don't want to bore you with this point ,but to be honest with you Rafa's abilities come a very distant second for me at the moment . My only concern at this time is the future of our club and if it has one. I don't want to take anything away from this debate (because i think it's a really good one) but if fans had showed as much passion regarding the future of our club ,than they do for Rafa's inadequacies or not we wouldn't be in half the mess were in now. The apathy towards the current situation is driving me nuts.

This is not a dig at the posters in this thread honestly ,it's a dig at the fans in general . I'm sorry if you think this has nothing to do with this debate , it wasn't my intention to detract from it , it's just the way i feel about current issues regarding the club and what is the priority with us fans.

[Number 9]

Oh ffs Mick shut up!

Every time I see one of your posts I feel strange!
I feel like getting a tartan blanket from me grandad and a packet of wherthers originals,jumping up on yer knee and talking about spitfires,the war and those bloody jerrys!

[Owzat]

The problem with Rafa's spending for me is until last season he didn't seem willing to commit big money to any one player. Yes we didn't/don't have the financial whack of the mancs or Chelsea, but since when did only having say £20m to spend mean you had to spend it on five or more substandard players?!?!?! If we'd signed just two quality players a season we may well have challenged by now, instead we've seen a lot of players come and go and are no closer to the Premiership than we've ever been.

Don't get me wrong, I love new signings as much as the next person. I would pretty much change the entire squad as quickly as possible on a footy management game, but then you can sell players for more than they're worth and buy players who cost less and are much better. But transfers gives you new hope, something to look forward to. Changes you can only hope for the better. But as I said to my colleague yesterday "change isn't good, IMPROVEMENT is". If a change doesn't improve something then it isn't worth making, like "if it ain't broke don't fix it". So have the players Rafa has signed been an improvement or simply something different that needs time to settle in? Would Barry be (much of) an improvement on Alonso? Was Voronin an improvement on what God was offering?

Voronin (07/08) : 6 goals in 28 appearances (0.214 goals/app)
Fowler (06/07) : 8 goals in 23 appearances (0.348 goals/app)

And as I've said, Fowler was doing as much of a job as anyone retained in the clearout, except we could have got (good) money for Crouch or Kuyt :-

Crouch (06/07) : 18 goals in 49 appearances (0.367 goals/app)
Kuyt (06/07) : 14 goals in 48 appearances (0.292 goals/app)
Crouch (07/08) : 11 goals in 36 appearances (0.306 goals/app)
Kuyt (11/08/07-30/01/08*) : 7 goals in 29 appearances (0.241 goals/app)

*not really much point continuing beyond January as Kuyt's role changed in the latter part of the season. Besides his record didn't get any better, in fact thereafer :-

07/08

Kuyt (11/08-30/01) : 7 goals in 29 appearances (0.241 goals/app)
Kuyt (02/02-11/05) : 4 goals in 18 appearances (0.222 goals/app)

So he wasn't scoring that many less. But the point being Fowler offered as much of a threat given a chance as Kuyt, Voronin or Crouch. And have we improved on Cisse or Baros with those signings? Same goes for the wide positions, maybe Babel will come good wide and therein lies a lesson as we paid £11.5m for him not £5m or £6m.

So maybe the mentality was wrong, Rafa unwilling to take risks with bigger money signings and the cheap substitutes (for the signings he really wanted) didn't work. Whether he's had the money of other clubs or not, he's had plenty of money and a manager shouldn't be judged on how much he has rather what he does with it. I'd probably rate Rafa a 6/10 maybe 7/10, certainly not in the upper reaches. His tendancy to sign players like Benayoun, Crouch, Pennant, Luis Garcia etc drags my rating of him in that regard right down. The much maligned zonal defending also beggars belief, will we win anything while we GIFT so many goals from set pieces? Tactically we don't often have an answer to difficult questions, we don't compete with the mancs head to head and we lose/draw too many silly games against rubbish teams. Losing to Reading who got relegated takes the biscuit. In fact his record against relegated sides is pretty feeble :-

vs Premiership 18-20 : P24 W15 D6 L3 F46 A19.

So we win 5/8, that's not great for teams so bad they go down. The three defeats may have been away, even by that split it isn't great

Home (Premiership 18-20) P12 W9 D3 L0 F26 A6
Away (Premiership 18-20) P12 W6 D3 L3 F20 A13

We shouldn't be drawing 1/4 against relegated sides at home, we really shouldn't be dropping points against them at all. What chance of winning the league if we keep dropping silly points? And while the mancs dropped points at home to Reading, the season comparison is not good :-

2007/8

Man Utd vs 18-20 (2007/08) : P6 W5 D1 L0 PTS 16
Liverpool vs 18-20 (2007/08) : P6 W3 D2 L1 PTS 11

That's half the gap against the worst three sides in the division, and talk of money is irrelevant since we severely outspent the bottom three. They beat Brum home and away, Rafa's never beaten Brum in the league - a side that can't even stay in the Premiership.

As I've said before, there are as many boxes unticked on Rafa's checksheet as there are ticked. I have also hinted before that I'd have liked him to tick a few more last season as a prerequisite to making a title bid. We drew away at Arsenal and Chelsea which is a couple ticked, however he left plenty unticked and I've touched on a few.

[66-1112520797]

In fairness to saint , although i don't agree with him . It's not like he's just come to this conclusion , he's been pretty much consistant in his views over the best part of last season . He has made his concerns about rafa's management pretty obvious over an extended period , Mick and bm have been the same ,mick being the longest .

Their all valid points and concerns they have , and if anyone thinks that going to the match on a regular basis stops you or prevents you from having these concerns are dillusional.

All you have to do is go the ale ouse before or after the match and the same points that the lads mentioned are being discussed on a regular basis .

We all have one thing in common (and i include the mad norwegian in this)is we want the best for LFC.

Now i don't want to bore you with this point ,but to be honest with you Rafa's abilities come a very distant second for me at the moment . My only concern at this time is the future of our club and if it has one. I don't want to take anything away from this debate (because i think it's a really good one) but if fans had showed as much passion regarding the future of our club ,than they do for Rafa's inadequacies or not we wouldn't be in half the mess were in now. The apathy towards the current situation is driving me nuts.

This is not a dig at the posters in this thread honestly ,it's a dig at the fans in general . I'm sorry if you think this has nothing to do with this debate , it wasn't my intention to detract from it , it's just the way i feel about current issues regarding the club and what is the priority with us fans.

Nice post Igor.

I'd just like to say that the reason I dont comment too much on the "future of our club" bit, is because I dont really know whats going on. Of course I get the general gist of the problem (those two muppets being the problem). But I cannot go into great depth about finacial and admin problems, i dont really no what I'm talking about to be honest.

Where as football is concerned, I'd like to think I understand the game having played it at a pub level  . No but seriously I find it more interesting to be quite frank, as I love the sport and the club itself. Dont get me wrong though what happens at the club is extremely important and I hope these problems we currently have f.uck off, so the rest of us can concerntrate on supportng Liverpool and having good footie debates. 

[Sabre]

Bamaga explains

I'd just like to say that the reason I dont comment too much on the "future of our club" bit, is because I dont really know whats going on. Of course I get the general gist of the problem (those two muppets being the problem). But I cannot go into great depth about finacial and admin problems, i dont really no what I'm talking about to be honest.

I'd like to steal this bit of Bamaga because it puts perfectly why I don't post in the longest thread of newkit often.

My self, I'm small club minded. For me, the day that clubs stopped to be ran directly by it's members and season ticket holders, and was converted and divide in stocks, that was the day that fans lost direct control of the future of the club. That was the day, a lot of years ago, that people lost that control. You have to cross fingers, pray and hope the one that's buying stocks is going to be a decent guy.

The proof that you lose control, is that even the most impressive and intimidating crowd of the planet, you lot, haven't still managed to make those twáts go away, or for that matter, that Parry doesn't go.

Yes, at some point you will manage, because you're not only impressive but constant at that, but yet it shows that fact. I feel the frustation that since footballs clubs are just another enterprise legally, we cannot do much more than moan sometimes.