Liverpool FC Forum

by **account deleted by request** » Wed Jul 02, 2008 10:41 am

Leonmc0708 wrote:
s@int wrote:Insanity - Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results

these smilies would have been more appropriate:

I take it you don't agree with my definition then Leon?

by **Sabre** » Wed Jul 02, 2008 11:10 am

Insanity - Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results

So rolling a dice is insane?

by **bigmick** » Wed Jul 02, 2008 11:11 am

Leonmc0708 wrote:No one said dont have an opinion, after all htey are like ar.se holes - every one has one.

The point is the professing to know better than a man who has won what he has in football from the comfort of your armchair with the benefit of hindsight is laughable to say the least.

Apologies for having a sense of humour (although its level and effectiveness is debateable) and posting pictures to lighten the mood, I shall and try and be someone that I am not when on line and refrain from pi.ss taking, jibes, jokes and all forms of humour hence forth.

Criticism of the manager is fine, pointing out where you beleive it went wrong is fine, suggesting possible solutions is fine, however talking of the guy in a derogatory way, professing to know 100% for sure where it went wrong and making out like "this substitution and that tactic" (with the benefit of hindsight) would have meant a win is quite frankly laughable.

As for the real fan, define this for me will you Michael ?

Abject failure is interesting also. I do not beleive we where relegated in the last four seasons any more then I think we have any right to win the league, unlike others clearly do.

For the record

dictionary wrote:abject (ab-ject)
adjective

1. utterly hopeless, miserable, humiliating, or wretched: abject poverty.
2. contemptible; despicable; base-spirited: an abject coward.
3. shamelessly servile; slavish.
4. Obsolete. cast aside.

Final thing to consider, we do not have seperate teams for the league, europe, fa cup and league cup, thus you cant seperate the four when talking of team success or of failure.

I'm not sure I'm professing to know better than Rafa with the benefit of hindsight, and even if I was I'm not sure it's laughable (maybe I need some of that sense of humour you referred to later). I'm professing that rotation "Rafa style" will never ever be successful in the English Premiership. You can say many things about me Leon but I don't really think even my worst enemies could accuse me of talking "with hindsight" about this particular subject. I've been on about it for three seasons now, it's not hindsight. If the manager thinks that changing the team 75 times in the first 15 matches of the season is the best way to give the team the best chance of winning the league, I passionately believe he is mistaken. I think he is wrong, and yes by definition I think therefore that I am right. I am not saying for a nanosecond that I know more about football than Rafa Benitez, but on this subject I side with Arsene Wenger, Aklex Ferguson and whoever has managed Chelsea over the last few seasons, indeed with every other manager in the Premiership. Nobody else rotates "Rafa style", and we can take the reason for that as being that they don't think it's the best way to go. I don't either.

I'll give you a bit more forsight, not hindsight. If we rotate the team with the same frequency this coming season as we did last season (which of course means formational changes, personel changes and the positions which people play in), then we will once again be out of the title race by Christmas. No hindsight, bring on all the eggs and all the faces you like. I've said it consistently for four seasons, I'd love it even more than Emerald Red if I was proven wrong, but don't hold your breath.

Next season, when he rotates to absolutely nowhere near the same extent that he has in the past and we launch a full and sustained challenge for the league, I wonder what people will say then. Still nothing to do with rotation I suppose.

Don't aplogise for having a sense of humour, I like it and the picture threads. I've said so many times in the past. I was merely making the point that alongside such threads ones which attempt to debate football have a right to exist as well.

You say talking about the manager in a derogatory way is out of order. I'm not sure I totally agree but I mostly do, which is why to the best of my knowledge I don't do it. I've often praised him up when I think he's done well, but if I don't think he has then sorry if it rubs some up the wrong way, but I'll say so. I'm not sure if the "this tactic or that substitution" thing is aimed at me. If it is it is wrong. I have often been proven wrong precisely because I have been more than prepared to put up BEFORE the game has axctually kicked off. I've slagged off rotation and methodology even when we've won the match FFS. I don't do that "I'm 100% sure" stuff I don't think, apart from on the rotation issue because I am.

"Real fan" doesn't need a definition. We both know that it is the first refuge of any supporter who belives the manager is incapable of making a mistake to question the validity of a dissenting voice. I have personally been on the recieving end of it on numerous occasions. If it isn't what you do for a living, it's where you live, how many matches you go to etc etc etc. Quite why people can't just debate football and opinions without getting all tribal about it is a mystery to me but there you go.

"Abject failure" is an interseting one you're right. As is your reference to success in other competitions. I agree that one competition isn't divorced from another. The same players compete in all competitions, you make a good point. Why is it then if the managers methodology in the league is so far beyond question that we can consistently defeat the finest teams in Europe but we can't challenge for the Premiership? Not win it mind, but challenge? Not once in four seasons? Even Houllier got us into a position to challenge.

It makes me laugh. I think Rafa has built a team which is plenty good enough to challenge for the league. I count coming fourth and fifth in the league as abject failure. Yet I am disloyal and less of a fan. I tell a lie, it doesmn't make me laugh, it makes me despair. It would make me laugh if I had more of that famous sense of humour.

by **account deleted by request** » Wed Jul 02, 2008 11:56 am

spot on Bigmick ...... I know its early but I think you are right mate.

by **66-1112520797** » Wed Jul 02, 2008 11:58 am

Good post Mick.

Going back to the topic in hand, what makes you so sure Rafa will stick with a far more settled team next year ?

I hope he does but for the life of me I cannot see it myself. I hope he'd give it a go by now (playing a settled team) and changing and adapting his methods for the Prem. I'd equally love it, if Rafa went for a settled side to prove that 'rotation' in football isnt the new science to which a team will previal if implemented, because as of yet that hasnt been the case at Liverpool football club.

75 changes in the first 15 games, pardon me for thinking,, but that is bordering on ridiculous. And its a habit or method shall we say I think Rafa will find hard to shake off.

Forsight, hindsight, ah who gives a feck, its my opinion. But if Rafa doesnt change his approach and methods to Premiership football. I dont think we'll challenge for the title, and I dont think he'll have a job come the end of next season at Anfield. Which will be a shame as he is tactically one of the best coaches in the world, a humble fella which bodes well with LFC and someone I'd like to see succeed here.

by **66-1112520797** » Wed Jul 02, 2008 12:01 pm

s@int wrote:spot on Bigmick ...... I know its early but I think you are right mate.

Forsight is the key S@int me old China. :;):

by **Bad Bob** » Wed Jul 02, 2008 12:33 pm

Well, as ever, I think it will depend on how we define things. For instance, I don't think Rafa will be resting Torres over-much this season. He didn't really do it last season either apart from the much talked about Portsmouth and Birmingham City games but I doubt you'll see that approach repeated. In fact, I think that--perhaps fullbacks aside--Rafa will have a much better idea of his best side this campaign than last, which should bring with it more selection continuity.

I do, however, expect that he'll rotate between the competitions fairly liberally. That is, he'll make several changes to the team that played a league match on the weekend when it comes time to play a mid-week cup match. I expect that will happen right from the off, with the CL qualifiers, and it may continue once again into the group stages depending on the perceived strength of the group. Indeed, I'd expect around 4 changes for every mid-week CL match and in the neighbourhood of 7-8 changes for Carling Cup matches. Why? Because I truly believe that Rafa worries about burning players out early in the season by having them play twice a week. So, I expect that he'll select a fairly settled side in the league and switch things up a bit for the midweek cup matches.

Will this amount to 75 changes in 15 games or whatever the numbers were last year? I doubt it but it won't be a million miles off, IMO. That raises the crucial question: will there be enough continuity in league selections--regardless of the teams put out in the cups--to build momentum and understanding? I hope so and, indeed, I think so. I suspect we'll look a lot like we did down the stretch last season--a settled side (formation-wise and selection-wise) with a few more or less predictable like-for-like swaps for the midweek cup matches. Like Mick, I do think Rafa will have learned something vital from the run-in last season but, like many others, I don't think that will stop him from switching the team around when we shift from league to cup competitions and back again.

by **muzodziwa** » Wed Jul 02, 2008 12:59 pm

I feel with the coming of the next season its not a matter of "rafa seing the light" but rather us the fans seing the light of rafa's methodologies. :;):

by **stmichael** » Thu Jul 03, 2008 10:54 am

Most of all I just hope Rafa resists the temptation to put Gerrard back in the centre of midfield when it has been proven that when he has played either on the right or behind the striker he has performed better. He doesn't have the discipline to play that role as his attacking instincts kick in and in all fairness you would take away a lot of his game by dropping back there. You also have the fact that he has just scored 20+ goals in the attacking midfield role, would his replacement score as many.

Also, this notion that Torres got over rotated last season by certain "pundits" did my f#cking head in. He was rested for two games in the whole season when he was fully fit, against Birmingham and Portsmouth. That may have cost us a couple of points in hindsight, but what was more to blame was some completely daft defending in games, especially at home.

by **Owzat** » Thu Jul 03, 2008 12:04 pm

stmichael wrote:Also, this notion that Torres got over rotated last season by certain "pundits" did my f#cking head in. He was rested for two games in the whole season when he was fully fit, against Birmingham and Portsmouth. That may have cost us a couple of points in hindsight, but what was more to blame was some completely daft defending in games, especially at home.

The problem at home was the inability to beat Brum, Wigan, villa, any of the top three and spudz when they were out of form. You might find not beating the top three at home acceptable (just about), but we should have beaten the other sides and at two dropped points a time we dropped 10 points more than the mancs at home and finished 11 points behind them ie the (wasteful) draws at home made up 10 out of the 11 points.

And our inability to beat Barnsley (FAC) and Chelsea (CL) at home cost us progress in those competitions.

by **Judge** » Thu Jul 03, 2008 12:09 pm

Bamaga man wrote:Good post Mick.

long post mick

by **Toffeehater** » Thu Jul 03, 2008 12:33 pm

Sabre wrote:Just a question:

What are the signs that indicate that Rafa's seen the light?

I started to read this phrase when Rafa started to use more often the one striker system, and we were out of Europe with less games. But I do think it's the form of players and amount of games the one who dictates which system we use. I feel that if he had a Villa he'd use 2 strikers or 1 at will and depending of the game.

So I'm interested to know what signs do you see to suggest that Rafa might have seen the light, or part of it.

P.S. By the way I'm a computer scientist and a frustrated footballer.

Maybe because , he has been using the same lineup against almost all the teams we played last season after we lost to barnsley and also maybe as he knows that its been 4 season since he's been here and rotating as not helped us challenge for the league

by **Toffeehater** » Thu Jul 03, 2008 12:34 pm

Bad Bob wrote:Well, as ever, I think it will depend on how we define things. For instance, I don't think Rafa will be resting Torres over-much this season. He didn't really do it last season either apart from the much talked about Portsmouth and Birmingham City games but I doubt you'll see that approach repeated. In fact, I think that--perhaps fullbacks aside--Rafa will have a much better idea of his best side this campaign than last, which should bring with it more selection continuity.

I do, however, expect that he'll rotate between the competitions fairly liberally. That is, he'll make several changes to the team that played a league match on the weekend when it comes time to play a mid-week cup match. I expect that will happen right from the off, with the CL qualifiers, and it may continue once again into the group stages depending on the perceived strength of the group. Indeed, I'd expect around 4 changes for every mid-week CL match and in the neighbourhood of 7-8 changes for Carling Cup matches. Why? Because I truly believe that Rafa worries about burning players out early in the season by having them play twice a week. So, I expect that he'll select a fairly settled side in the league and switch things up a bit for the midweek cup matches.

Will this amount to 75 changes in 15 games or whatever the numbers were last year? I doubt it but it won't be a million miles off, IMO. That raises the crucial question: will there be enough continuity in league selections--regardless of the teams put out in the cups--to build momentum and understanding? I hope so and, indeed, I think so. I suspect we'll look a lot like we did down the stretch last season--a settled side (formation-wise and selection-wise) with a few more or less predictable like-for-like swaps for the midweek cup matches. Like Mick, I do think Rafa will have learned something vital from the run-in last season but, like many others, I don't think that will stop him from switching the team around when we shift from league to cup competitions and back again.

good post mate :nod

by **bigmick** » Thu Jul 03, 2008 12:52 pm

Judge wrote:
Bamaga man wrote:Good post Mick.

long post mick

Feck off judgie FFS

by **jedi56** » Thu Jul 03, 2008 9:15 pm

now torres has won the european championship he is not going to settle for 2nd or 3rd,he has made it clear he wants to be named world player one day. to let villa con you into buying barry for 18 million ,is asking for future trouble. crouch cost way too much when we bought him,yet now he is 3 times the player nobody wants to pay the correct price cause they know the way rafas mind work, they know he is the king of bargains.he will just throw away money just to get people out the club,but will think nothing of over paying for players then moan that rick parry has not backed all his transfers....we now know those players that were not backed were probably expensive junk like malouda.......rafa got lucky with torres .

people are dictating to and bullying liverpool in the transfer market. why carry on like barry is the new wiz kid from brazil...oh sorry thats lucas. we need more torres type players for 18 million not barry.having said all this i would love barry to join us for 5 million...as a squad player.

i reckon torres can score 40 goals like ronaldo if we get a couple of fast,skillful but very sly wingers.we need some devious thinking plotters in the squad.

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Rafa, - Has he seen the light if at all?

Rafa, - Has he seen the light if at all?

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