Liverpool FC Forum

by **Owzat** » Sat Apr 12, 2008 10:27 am

Leonmc0708 wrote:
Owzat wrote:Not even if we pay £3m and he's fourth choice? In fairness how much of a fair crack do England give Reading players? Shorey got a brief chance, Sidwell left before getting a look in if I'm not mistaken and Harper will probably have to do the same. Not sure how many of the rest qualify for England, you can bet the England coaching staff don't watch a fraction of the Reading games you do. Aren't most of them 3pm Saturday, being Reading, not in Europe and not exactly the most televisible team in the country with no local derbies?

So it would be easier to stand out then ?

If you are good enough for England, you will be playing.

In fact even if you are not good enough (Beattie, Rickets at Bolton, Carlton Palmer 16 at Sheff Wed to name a few) just like Kitson is not good enough, you could still get a game.

So that explains why Nolan, Barry and many others are solid for their clubs week in, week out, yet the bulk of the England squad (when fit and available/not retired) is made up of big five club players? And the comparison between Kuyt and Kitson, well why not Kitson and Crouch since Crouch is on nine goals. But then he's become a regular in the squad SINCE he joined Liverpool.

Man Utd (7) Scholes (retired), Neville, Brown, Carrick, Hargreaves, Rooney, Foster

Liverpool (3) Gerrard, Crouch, Carragher (retired)

Chelsea (5) J.Cole, A.Cole (retarded), Lampard, Wright-Phillips, Terry

Tottenham (5) King, Lennon, Dawson, Jenas, Bent

For a squad of 23 that is a large representation from clubs that don't all have large proportions of English players. And you will get a handful who made their names at one of the big five. Players like Barry struggle to get in the England squad, not because they don't play well for their clubs but because there is a strong leaning towards the big clubs and the thinking that they have the best players. Anyone not good enough to play for those big clubs can't be good enough to play for England.

Plus the smaller club players don't play in the Champions League, you don't think Reading vs Derby is going to get much attention do you? Or Fulham vs Villa. You can guarantee that someone from the England camp will be at as many of the big five clashes over a weekend as possible, if not someone at all of them.

Or tell me this, how do players like Foster and Brown get in the England squad? For achievement? For being better than alternatives? Or simply because they play for the mancs and are assumed then to be better? Sidwell probably thought playing for Chelsea would win him trophies and get him in the England squad. Well he's perhaps nowhere near as happy as he might have been.

You can't help but think if the mancs had ten or twelve English players of a reasonable standard that better players from other clubs would make way. Brown and Foster as decent players, but Brown is no way the best RB available and Foster isn't playing regularly in the top flight so his inclusion ahead of others is questionable.

And your fairly short list of consists of few England REGULARS, most are astounded Palmer made as many appearances as he did and is widely regarded as the worst to play for England ever! (fairly or otherwise) Those were different days, a lot of fans bleat about trying players from other divisions out for England, when did it last happen? Most footballers with England ambition play in the top flight, abandon sinking ships, and if they're good enough want Champions League football. Barry and Nolan are two obvious exceptions, tot up the number of caps they have and the number of games played for their clubs and work out if you think the proportions are about right

by **nemolyk** » Sat Apr 12, 2008 11:47 am

150m=one champions league winner and a FA cup
i donnot think it is a bad deal
otherwise,now we have a excellent team bringing us dramatic results
rafa has been building a team,for he intent to push us to the top of europ again
we should be patience
manager is not a easy job,otherwise everyone could be the one

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Sat Apr 12, 2008 4:14 pm

What's the comparrison for Barry and Nolan got to do with anything? Barry is now a regular in the england squad, even keeping Lampard out the side and Nolan has yet to earn a cap. So what have they got in common for England?

Plus there's many other players who are now being reconised as England players...Upson, Green and Ashton from West Ham have all been called up since Capello arrived. Lescott and Johnson from Everton are certainly in the squad of late. Owen and Barton of Newcastle have been in and around the squad for a number of years, as will Milner and Taylor in the future. Villa in the last squad had 5 players in the original 30 man squad, Carson, Davies, Young, Agbonglahor and of course Barry. Emile Heskey was called up recently and he's at Wigan. Downing of Middlesbrough and Richards of Man City, so I don't understand how people can say the squad is made up of just top five clubs.

England starting 11...James (portsmouth) Richards (man city) Ferdinand (united) Terry (chelsea) Cole (chelsea) Bentley (blackburn) Gerrard (liverpool) Barry (villa) Cole (chelsea) Owen (newcastle) Rooney (united) that's a 4-4-2 system that most would agree with and it involves 5 players outside of the top five. So again people who believe the England squad is just top sides are well and truely wrong.

A few years back then yes I'd agree it was just top sides who got into the England squad. When the likes of Nicky Butt and Andy Cole were regulars in the starting 11 just because they played for United. Since they moved on they haven't featured as much, but of late because of the lack of English talent in the top sides, England managers have to look about for others. Teams like Everton, Villa, Portsmouth and West Ham have players who now have more a chance of making the England squad.

by **Leonmc0708** » Sat Apr 12, 2008 8:35 pm

Fo Dne wrote:
Leonmc0708 wrote:Kitson : 9
Kuyt : 9

goals scored thie season.

obviously Kitson is better ?

Well by your reckoning if thats all that counts then obviously he's no worse. Considering Kuyt's god Gerrard, Torres and Alonso supplying him aswell as apose to Harper, Hunt and Doyle then leaves even more room for arguement...

Good post though Leon... well thought out as ever.

You said he was better, I assumed you would use the goals scored issue that gets brought up about him.

How do you rate him as better than Kuyt then ? Hair colour ?

by **MR C** » Mon Apr 14, 2008 7:37 pm

so are we watching a 150 million pound team.if not why did he actually spend that amount.

should we be watching 150 million pound team.

by **VamosRafa** » Mon Apr 14, 2008 8:04 pm

Its very difficult to decide what our current squad is worth. The only fair way to do it is to give an evaluation of each players worth and add it up.
Reina - 12m
Arbeloa - 5m
Skrtel - 7m
Carragher 8m (though actually priceless)
Aurelio - 3m
Babel - 11m
Masch - 20m
Alonso -12m
Kuyt 6m
Gerrard- 35m
Torres - 35m

Thats our first team. Obviously these values are very debatable, i've tried to be as fair as possible, the total is 154m (i think!). If you also consider the rest i.e Crouch - 10m Lucas - 6m Benayoun 5m etc, as well as the potential value of the Youth Team, with players like Insua and Nemeth, the value of the squad assembled by Benitez is well in excess of 150m.

I guess the real question should be whether, a substantial amount of improvement has come about from Benitez spending 150m. Players like Gerrard, Carra, Hypia were already there when he arrived, and his spending hasn't yet found long terms solutions to our problems outwide, and our creativity going forward. Despite this, I think he's definitely earned the right to have 1 last splurge this summer of 30-50m. He shown when he spends big he gets it right (Torres, Mascherano, Alonso) and has done well to recoup a lot from player sales, as well as the champions league money will have brought in a lot.

Here's hoping he gets it right with 2-3 top class (i'm talking 15m +) signings in the summer, and no more "squad" or "back up players" for :censored:

sake

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Mon Apr 14, 2008 9:18 pm

VamosRafa wrote:Here's hoping he gets it right with 2-3 top class (i'm talking 15m +) signings in the summer, and no more "squad" or "back up players" for sake

I don't see the point in putting my own values of players up because everyone will have a different value for each and every player. So I decided to leave it to just the point I've quoted, and sorry to say this but I honestly feel you and anybody else who thinks we're going to see 3 world stars (15m+) arrive this summer are kidding themselves.

If the yanks are still in charge of the club, which I expect them to be, I can't see them throwing Benitez in excess of 45 million. I think a maximum of 30 million will be given to him and the likes of David Villa who many people seem to be keen on, will cost us the lion share of that transfer kitty. So I think next season will be a "rebuilding" season. Losing a lot of players to try and rake in some more bread to buy more "squad" players. I don't usually go for the "Benitez has had to lose players to bring in others" because he hasn't sold anybody who we'd keep anyway, but this summer I think one or two big names might be shown the door because there won't be a great deal of money flying around for Benitez to spend.

by **Rush Job** » Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:43 am

god_bless_john_houlding wrote:
VamosRafa wrote:Here's hoping he gets it right with 2-3 top class (i'm talking 15m +) signings in the summer, and no more "squad" or "back up players" for sake

I don't see the point in putting my own values of players up because everyone will have a different value for each and every player. So I decided to leave it to just the point I've quoted, and sorry to say this but I honestly feel you and anybody else who thinks we're going to see 3 world stars (15m+) arrive this summer are kidding themselves.

If the yanks are still in charge of the club, which I expect them to be, I can't see them throwing Benitez in excess of 45 million. I think a maximum of 30 million will be given to him and the likes of David Villa who many people seem to be keen on, will cost us the lion share of that transfer kitty. So I think next season will be a "rebuilding" season. Losing a lot of players to try and rake in some more bread to buy more "squad" players. I don't usually go for the "Benitez has had to lose players to bring in others" because he hasn't sold anybody who we'd keep anyway, but this summer I think one or two big names might be shown the door because there won't be a great deal of money flying around for Benitez to spend.

Yup

by **VamosRafa** » Tue Apr 15, 2008 9:22 am

Rush Job wrote:
god_bless_john_houlding wrote:
VamosRafa wrote:Here's hoping he gets it right with 2-3 top class (i'm talking 15m +) signings in the summer, and no more "squad" or "back up players" for sake

I don't see the point in putting my own values of players up because everyone will have a different value for each and every player. So I decided to leave it to just the point I've quoted, and sorry to say this but I honestly feel you and anybody else who thinks we're going to see 3 world stars (15m+) arrive this summer are kidding themselves.

If the yanks are still in charge of the club, which I expect them to be, I can't see them throwing Benitez in excess of 45 million. I think a maximum of 30 million will be given to him and the likes of David Villa who many people seem to be keen on, will cost us the lion share of that transfer kitty. So I think next season will be a "rebuilding" season. Losing a lot of players to try and rake in some more bread to buy more "squad" players. I don't usually go for the "Benitez has had to lose players to bring in others" because he hasn't sold anybody who we'd keep anyway, but this summer I think one or two big names might be shown the door because there won't be a great deal of money flying around for Benitez to spend.

Yup

I expect 5 or 6 of our first team squad to leave in the summer. If this is the case, i don't see why it will be necessary for Rafa to bring in average players to replace them as you have suggested . He will have had four seasons to build a solid squad, anything added to it now should be to improve rather than replace the existing players. It has to be time for Rafa to bring up a few reserves to bolster the squad rather than wasting money on more Mark Gonzalez types, who will provide nothing more than a stopgap.

I don't see why you think next season has to be one for 'rebuilding', we've been doing that since Houllier took over ffs. If anything this season was for that, to allow Torres to settle, and give Babel and Lucas the experience and confidence to establish themselves as first teamers (which will hopefully show next season).

If as you suggested Rafa only gets 30m this summer, a transfer window where the money is spent on 5 average players rather than 2 quality players will constitute a huge step backwards for the club.

by **Owzat** » Tue Apr 15, 2008 9:47 am

VamosRafa wrote:Its very difficult to decide what our current squad is worth. The only fair way to do it is to give an evaluation of each players worth and add it up.
Reina - 12m
Arbeloa - 5m
Skrtel - 7m
Carragher 8m (though actually priceless)
Aurelio - 3m
Babel - 11m
Masch - 20m
Alonso -12m
Kuyt 6m
Gerrard- 35m
Torres - 35m

Thats our first team. Obviously these values are very debatable, i've tried to be as fair as possible, the total is 154m (i think!). If you also consider the rest i.e Crouch - 10m Lucas - 6m Benayoun 5m etc, as well as the potential value of the Youth Team, with players like Insua and Nemeth, the value of the squad assembled by Benitez is well in excess of 150m.

It's hard to do that, not least because players value will go down as they age and unless you offload them fairly soon they will be worth less than when they signed.

And sorry but Reina would not fetch £12m, CBs are difficult to price because clubs rarely spend more than £7m-£10m on them, and some of the others are tenuous to say the least. I'd certainly suggest you could easily knock some off what you've appraised for Alonso, Kuyt, Crouch, Arbeloa and Babel. They might go for what you've said, they could easily go for less.

I remember back when people talked up Beckham leaving the mancs, values were quoted ranging from £20m to £50m. He went for £25m so the bottom end of the scale. Same goes for Gerrard or Torres, maybe what they are worth to a club is upwards of £30m, but few players break the £30m record - even outside of England.

I've done a quick tot up of 24 players, given them some rough prices and come up with just over £150m. But I've left Mascherano and Crouch at what they cost, given Torres £30m as the English max, Gerrard the Beckham value of £25m and given Skrtel, Carra and Agger what I consider the going rate for a good CB of £7m each. But for a squad of 24 you'd expect it to fetch around £6m to £7m on average.

I've done it again quickly for the mancs and come up with well over £200m when it cost around £160m. That's even giving Ronaldo a value of £30m as a top limit, don't be too surprised if the European record isn't threatened if Real Madrid want him.

by **Owzat** » Tue Apr 15, 2008 9:55 am

I think we need to offload one or two players before signing more, see what our maximum budget will be with the income from those sales before chasing targets. We could easily sell Crouch, Riise and Pennant without weakening the squad in order to raise extra funds, I know Rafa likes to sign cover before letting players go, but since Pennant and Voronin have been out injured for a while during the season we coped well enough without Pennant and a striker.

To me buying before selling is like spending on your credit card without knowing what your income is going to be. We might get £10m+ for Crouch, we might only get offers nearer half that. We might not get offers at all. And what would Riise fetch? He and others could be used in a cash plus player deal, might increase his worth but it might decrease it. If I were playing a footy management game I'd only do part exchanges with players I couldn't get rid of or who would fetch less sold separately.

I feel we do need to sign key players, we see the worth of Torres, Gerrard and Carra every week and while some of the rest are solid, just think what another player or two of the quality of those three could do for the squad. No point signing another winger or two for £5m-£7m and taking a punt they'll work, spend the budget on key players. Maybe even use sales to fund the cheapies, use the season budget on key signings. How many punts did fergie take? Anderson? Nani? Hargreaves? Manucho? As much as I hate to say it no less than two of those could easily get in our side.

by **SouthCoastShankly** » Tue Apr 15, 2008 11:48 am

I tend to agree that assign arbitrary values to players is pointless. I prefer to group the squad into two categories: Safe and Uncertain -

Safe
Sami Hyypia
Daniel Agger
Steven Gerrard
Fernando Torres
Yossi Benayoun
Fabio Aurelio
Alvaro Arbeloa
Dirk Kuyt
Ryan Babel
Javier Mascherano
Lucas Leiva
Jamie Carragher
Pepe Reina

Uncertain
Steve Finnan - Getting less and less games recently, may try to look for regular footy elsewhere.

John Arne Riise - Openly admitted if he doesn't get regular first team football he'd have to consider his options.

Harry Kewell - What does he provide other than another name on the clubs payroll?

Andriy Voronin - Going by recent comments he obviously doesn't like Liverpool much.

Xabi Alonso - Another one who's form has cost his name on the starting line up frequently. If the Barry reports are to believed I can only see Alonso as the casualty.

Peter Crouch - Clearly isn't a favoured by Rafa for some stupid unknown reason. Has said he'll wait till the summer before deciding on a new contract.

Jermaine Pennant - If Crouch goes I can see Pennant as an additional casualty. Rafa only seems to play Pennant when Crouch plays, obviously for cross delivery. No Crouch = No need for Pennant unless we sign another tall striker??

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Tue Apr 15, 2008 10:13 pm

VamosRafa wrote:
Rush Job wrote:
god_bless_john_houlding wrote:
VamosRafa wrote:Here's hoping he gets it right with 2-3 top class (i'm talking 15m +) signings in the summer, and no more "squad" or "back up players" for sake

I don't see the point in putting my own values of players up because everyone will have a different value for each and every player. So I decided to leave it to just the point I've quoted, and sorry to say this but I honestly feel you and anybody else who thinks we're going to see 3 world stars (15m+) arrive this summer are kidding themselves.

If the yanks are still in charge of the club, which I expect them to be, I can't see them throwing Benitez in excess of 45 million. I think a maximum of 30 million will be given to him and the likes of David Villa who many people seem to be keen on, will cost us the lion share of that transfer kitty. So I think next season will be a "rebuilding" season. Losing a lot of players to try and rake in some more bread to buy more "squad" players. I don't usually go for the "Benitez has had to lose players to bring in others" because he hasn't sold anybody who we'd keep anyway, but this summer I think one or two big names might be shown the door because there won't be a great deal of money flying around for Benitez to spend.

Yup

I expect 5 or 6 of our first team squad to leave in the summer. If this is the case, i don't see why it will be necessary for Rafa to bring in average players to replace them as you have suggested . He will have had four seasons to build a solid squad, anything added to it now should be to improve rather than replace the existing players. It has to be time for Rafa to bring up a few reserves to bolster the squad rather than wasting money on more Mark Gonzalez types, who will provide nothing more than a stopgap.

I don't see why you think next season has to be one for 'rebuilding', we've been doing that since Houllier took over ffs. If anything this season was for that, to allow Torres to settle, and give Babel and Lucas the experience and confidence to establish themselves as first teamers (which will hopefully show next season).

If as you suggested Rafa only gets 30m this summer, a transfer window where the money is spent on 5 average players rather than 2 quality players will constitute a huge step backwards for the club.

I think it's a case of crossed wires mate. I don't want next season to be a "rebuilding" season. But I think that's what it will be.

There won't be massive amounts of money if the yanks are still in charge, so a lot of big names won't be achievable anyway. I'll use the example of David Villa again because I know he's highly rated and has been linked with us for a while now. He alone will cost 25 million plus. Now if we get the 30 million I'm expecting from the yanks, 25 on one player is a huge amount. I don't see us bringing in three world stars without letting at least 5 or 6 of our players going anyway.

For argument sake the three players we go for this summer are Villa, Alves and Quresma. They're gonna cost us at least 60 million. Again I'm only speculating here but if we get the 30 million I'm expecting off the yanks, that buys one of the three. We're about 30 or 40 million short of the other two, depending how much we spend on the first. Along with that money we're still looking for those two players. Do you see the yanks giving the extra money? I don't. I see them telling Benitez to sell or be happy with what he's got. Do you see Benitez selling six players to make the required 30 million just to sign another two players? Again I don't.

Obviously all of this is just pure speculation on my behalf. But I don't see us having the money to sign these "three world stars" many people are crying out for. So next season will be another "rebuilding" season in my opinion and another season were people will have the excuse of not enough funds. Now I certainly don't buy into that arguement and think that eight transfer windows that Benitez has had to work in up to now is enough time and had enough money to "rebuild" which is why I don't want the 2008/09 season to be another "rebuilding" season but that's all I can see it being.

by **stapo1000** » Wed Apr 16, 2008 1:52 am

just looking at the list of players rafa has bought it seems we haven't bought any players for cheap who have turned into decent first team regulars. None of the youngsters we've bought in the last 4 seasons of been able to progress from the youth/reserve teams and made the grade at senior level. perhaps you'd have to question rafa's ability to spot a bargin. in contrast look at some of wengers buys- van persie for 3.5m, fabregas for 0.5m.

by **Kharhaz** » Wed Apr 16, 2008 2:36 am

stapo1000 wrote:just looking at the list of players rafa has bought it seems we haven't bought any players for cheap who have turned into decent first team regulars. None of the youngsters we've bought in the last 4 seasons of been able to progress from the youth/reserve teams and made the grade at senior level. perhaps you'd have to question rafa's ability to spot a bargin. in contrast look at some of wengers buys- van persie for 3.5m, fabregas for 0.5m.

No but as I have mentioned in other posts, rafa does not have the luxury the other top clubs have. He has to get it right first time. Look at cristiano ronaldo, he was given the time to adjust, then look at mark gonzalez, he wasnt. Could he have become something? who knows but you look at ronaldo in his first season and we all laughed ! Amazing what time can do isnt it?

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