Liverpool FC Forum

by **Yari7** » Thu Apr 03, 2008 2:20 pm

god_bless_john_houlding wrote:just like to go back to the zonal marking issue because it doesn't work.

in the last five games where we've conceeded at least one goal, we've conceeded a goal from a set peice. Arsenal, United, Reading, Bolton and Boro. It's more than conincidence. Only one of these five goals have been scored by someone's foot, so it's obvious that sides are winning the headers against us which is beyond the joke when you see the size of our squad, Hyypia, Skrtel, Carra, Gerrard, Torres, Babel are all well above six foot. It's pathetic the amount of times we conceed goals from set peices and the amount of open headers or shota the opposing side has from set peices.

Adebeyor last night, free header. Ronaldo free header. Reading fella unmarked on the edge of the box. Cohen unmarked for Bolton. Tuncay didn't even header the ball it came of his shoulder but because he's in so much space it still goes in. Pathetic and people who try and justify zonal marking are well to put it bluntly, idiots.

I agree that we concede way too much from set peices. At every set peice these days, we look vunerable. Weather that is because we don't perform our roles well enough, or the system itself is up for debate. Because over the past few years, we have been solid at set peices.

Maybe we should explore a combination of zonal marking, but with a key men like Adebayor being man marked.

I guess Zonal marking vs. Man Marking is an arguement in which you can only be on one side of the fence. You are either one or the other and it's all a matter of opinion.

by **Bad Bob** » Thu Apr 03, 2008 2:26 pm

With the goal last night I think it was a combination of things:

1) Clever movement from Adebayor, who started on the line and then stepped out in between the centre halves to meet the cross.

2) Poor communication from our lads--no one gave Sami a shout to alert him that Adebayor was stepping out

3) No one on our side attacking the ball. Sami didn't make a play for the ball and neither did Skrtel (can't recall if he was the other in the immediate area). Everyone acted like it was someone else's responsibility.

To me, that's an instance of poor execution within an otherwise effective system.

by **red187** » Thu Apr 03, 2008 2:37 pm

Thats my point, no marking system works because footballers dont always do the right thing, its human nature to make mistakes and footballers are no different.

The arguement over systems is an exercise in futility, if we were imploying a man marking system we would be singling out indiviuals for blame.

So maybe we should congratuate Rafa for taking some pressure of the players shoulders with Zonal marking.

by **redtrader74** » Thu Apr 03, 2008 3:05 pm

Judge wrote:zonal markinh is fine providing that the player needs to be aware of those around him. you may find the oppo standing in areas outside that zonal area, and of course, those oppo players will get free headers etc.

how about if our lads zonally marked the opposition, rather than a given area?

What man-marking? :laugh:

Sabres point of a Hybrid is something i also thought happened on occassion with us, sometimes it looks as though we are marking zonally, but 2-3 of our players are paying special attention to the opposition danger men. The system can and does work, (the previous 3 years defensive record and Reina being golden gloves twice indicates it does), but presently we are not executing it very well, i'm guessing but it might be new to Skrtel, and time spent practicing it should help, because during set pieces he has not looked dominant.

My major concern with the defense recently has been how often a mediocre ball knocked straight through and over the middle of our CB's has ended up with an opposition forward making a chance, it happened twice last night, and IIRC 3 times against the Mancs, that needs sorting quickly IMO.

by **Bad Bob** » Thu Apr 03, 2008 3:21 pm

redtrader74 wrote:My major concern with the defense recently has been how often a mediocre ball knocked straight through and over the middle of our CB's has ended up with an opposition forward making a chance, it happened twice last night, and IIRC 3 times against the Mancs, that needs sorting quickly IMO.

Agreed. The two balls over the top to Rooney at Old Trafford were mirrored by Flamini's ball to Van Persie last night. That's a concern. I'm also concerned with how we cope with Arsenal's through balls at the edge of the box. A couple of times Skrtel got drawn out towards Van Persie well beyond the edge of the box. RVP just slid it over to Fabregas who is killer at dinking little balls into the space Skrtel leaves for the likes of Adebayour and Hleb to latch on to. As someone noted in the match thread, we need to work very hard to cut off Arsenal's supply lines and that means stopping Flamini and Fabregas from pinging those early balls into feet and then bursting forward for the return. A tall order but one I expect Rafa can drill into the lads.

by **Judge** » Thu Apr 03, 2008 3:31 pm

redtrader74 wrote:
Judge wrote:zonal marking is fine providing that the player needs to be aware of those around him. you may find the oppo standing in areas outside that zonal area, and of course, those oppo players will get free headers etc.

how about if our lads zonally marked the opposition, rather than a given area?

What man-marking?

why you laughing, that was my point in the post i made

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Thu Apr 03, 2008 3:37 pm

red187 wrote:Well give a solution that works better, thats all. I agree that Zonal doesn't work but no system does.

You are arguing a point that is obvious to everyone, I never suggested that it works totally, so you are arguing for the sake of it.

Football is all about unpredictability if there were systems that worked everytime all the time it would be a very boring sport to watch.

I'm not saying any system is full proof, of course it isn't, we'd conceed goals from set peices if we zonal mark, man mark of if we marks and spencers. My point is though zonal mark clearly doesn't work, we'd certainly be within 5 yards of someone if we man marked rather than free headers.

I'd even accept zonal marking, if the players concentrated on clearing the ball rather than concentrating on a particular zone. Last night for example, Hyypia (nearest Liverpool player to Adebyeor) wasn't watching the ball or the player, he was looking to the 18 yard line, so when the ball comes in Adebeyor is watching it onto his head whereas Hyypia is having to twist, turn, judge the flight, jump and get in front of Adebeyor. He got the turn part right. Everything else he got wrong for that corner. That's why teams coast through and score from corners because our players aren't interested in ball or player but rather their little zone.

I'd prefer us to go back to man marking but with defenders who attack the ball.

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Thu Apr 03, 2008 4:13 pm

Bad Bob wrote:
god_bless_john_houlding wrote:just like to go back to the zonal marking issue because it doesn't work.

in the last five games where we've conceeded at least one goal, we've conceeded a goal from a set peice. Arsenal, United, Reading, Bolton and Boro. It's more than conincidence. Only one of these five goals have been scored by someone's foot, so it's obvious that sides are winning the headers against us which is beyond the joke when you see the size of our squad, Hyypia, Skrtel, Carra, Gerrard, Torres, Babel are all well above six foot. It's pathetic the amount of times we conceed goals from set peices and the amount of open headers or shota the opposing side has from set peices.

Adebeyor last night, free header. Ronaldo free header. Reading fella unmarked on the edge of the box. Cohen unmarked for Bolton. Tuncay didn't even header the ball it came of his shoulder but because he's in so much space it still goes in. Pathetic and people who try and justify zonal marking are well to put it bluntly, idiots.

You, of all people, calling someone an idiot!

For the sake of argument, let's assume you're not on a wind up for once and that you really don't think the system works. If so, I ask you--how do you decide when it's the system's fault or when it's the players' fault for not executing the system? After all, you got your knickers in a knot in the formation thread arguing that it was the players that let us down at Old Trafford not the system. I would argue that that's exactly the case with zonal marking. We've proven that zonal marking works over the last few seasons because our defensive record does not lie. At the moment, our players are not executing their tasks as effectively within a proven system and it is costing us.

last season in the league lets take it game by game shall we.

Sheff Utd (2-1) conceeded through a set peice. Rob Hulse scored.
West Ham (2-1) conceeded through a fluke Zamaro cross.
Everton (3-0) took a pasting. Cahill with one and Johnson with two. Reina cocking up.
Chelsea (1-0) great finish by Drogba
Newcastle (2-0) win
Spurs (3-0) win
Bolton (2-0) lost. Speed scores from a free kick and Campo with a header from a corner.

So by the end of the first two months of last year we'd conceeded 8 goals, three from set peices. Less than one in every three, hardly working wonders at the start of the year.

Let's take a look at october through to Christmas

Blackburn (1-1) McCarthy putting away a Bentley cross.
United (2-0) loss. Scholes puts one away from close range and Ferdinand controls the ball from a corner.
Villa (3-1) win. Agbonglahor for them.
Reading (2-0) win.
Arsenal (3-0) loss. Flamini, Toure and Gallas. Gallas from a corner suprisingly.
Boro (0-0)
Man City (1-0)
Pompey (0-0)
Wigan (4-0)
Fulham (4-0)
Charlton (3-0)
Watford (2-0)

So we'd conceed two from set peices during this period taking it 5 conceed from 15. One in every five looking promising. Helped of course by seven straight clean sheets.

Let's take Boxing day through to the end of Febuary now.

Blackburn (1-0) loss. Tugay from a free kick.
Spurs (1-0) win.
Bolton (3-0) win.
Watford (3-0) win.
Chelsea (2-0) win.
West Ham (2-1) win. Blanco knocking home a cross.
Everton (0-0)
Newcastle (2-1) defeat. Martins and Solano (pen...set peice because it's not open play)
Sheff Utd (4-0) win.

So during this period we'd conceed an extra four goals, two from set peices. Taking the total to 7 from 19. Back to less than one in every three.

Final period of the season. Lets see how we fair.

United (1-0) loss. O'Shea pouncing from a spilled ball by Reina off a FREE KICK shot. (8 in 20)
Villa (0-0)
Arsenal (4-1) performance of the season. Still managed to conceed from a set peice. (9 in 21)
Reading (2-1) win. Gunnarson. (9 in 22)
Man City (0-0)
Boro (2-0) win
Wigan (2-0) win
Pompey (2-1) loss. Kranjacer and Benjani. (9 in 23)
Fulham (1-0) loss. Dempsey knocking in from close range. (9 in 24)
Charlton (2-2) draw. Holland and Bent. (9 in 26)

These are facts. You can't argue with facts. On average it was one goal in every three came from set peices, proves we weren't exactly excelling last year either as some like to believe. Again as I've said, just because we conceeded only 26 goals in the league, doesn't mean that our defending at set peices was any better. It's been ultimately worse this year, but still one in every three isn't exactly something to be proud of.

by **Scottbot** » Thu Apr 03, 2008 4:49 pm

I'm not 100% sure where i stand on the zonal marking situation. It does seem that we have gone through stages under Benitez where we are very solid from set-pieces and then follow this up with a run where we look dodgy and concede goals. But i must admit i tear my my hair out when i have to listen to the same old sh...i...t...e being trotted out by the ex-pros in the commentary/analyst box. VERY VERY lazy journalism for the most part and I thought Gordon Strachan (who is a deep thinker and anything but a lazy journo) got it spot on with his analysis yesterday.

There are two problems with the debate from what i can see.

1) When goals are conceded by teams who employ man-marking at set-plays it is simply brushed under the carpet. 'So and So' lost his man, his fault, let's move on.

2/ With Zonal marking there seems to be no-one to blame when a goal is scored. IT MUST BE THE SYSTEM!!!!! Cue the media fan-fare, IT NEVER WOULD HAVE BEEN A GOAL IF THEY WERE MAN MARKING!!!!!! There is deffo a typical British lack of understanding about the system.

3/ When a goal is conceded from Zonal marking we assume it is NOT because of an INDIVIDUAL error however, I agree with Strachan who pointed the finger at Hyppia for last night's goal. Again, his analysis was excellent and he talked about players needing to brave enough to STAY IN THEIR ZONE and ATTACK IT if it ENTERS THEIR ZONE. If we concede from zonal marking it is (more often than not) down to an individual(s) errors (rather like man-marking) within that system.

Didn't Hansen say the Liverpool side he played in for several seasons used zonal marking at set-plays? Am pretty sure that is the case. If so it kinda make GBJH sound a bit stupid?

by **The_Rock** » Thu Apr 03, 2008 5:01 pm

Think bigmick hit it on the head when he mentioned that our defending of set plays is a combination of zonal and player marking ......

We were pretty awesome in rafa's 2nd season when our defence was really water-tight.

You know why we seem to struggle at defending set pieces this season.....

The answer is........ this season the back four hardly plays 5 to 6 matches together.... Its arbeloa at right back 1 week....its then carra at right back. Hyppia comes in every 2 weeks. Riise and Auerlio seem destined to play every other week...... Finnan who has been our best right throughout rafa's anfield career has been missing for the half a dozen matches...

So how is our back four gonna be in-sync when they are defending or playing the offside trap when they are playing with different players all the time...?

Zonal defending (mutated with some player marking)is a very technical tactic. The players have to be 100% in-sync with their fellow defensive players... If the back four is being changed frequently....expect more mistakes...

by **Bad Bob** » Thu Apr 03, 2008 5:04 pm

god_bless_john_houlding wrote:Newcastle (2-1) defeat. Martins and Solano (pen...set peice because it's not open play)
.
.
.
United (1-0) loss. O'Shea pouncing from a spilled ball by Reina off a FREE KICK shot. (8 in 20)

So zonal marking is to blame when we conceed from a penalty or when our keeper spills it now? :laugh:

Great analysis...I'm convinced. :kungfu:

by **SupitsJonF** » Thu Apr 03, 2008 5:10 pm

The new system, against the better teams, is eventually going to get Torres injured. Every time he made an Arsenal defender look like a lower league player he was fouled (without cards being thrown) making him useless. Maybe if the player is on a yellow Torres can be effective, but without another man up with Torres all I see is a few goals and injury coming.

by **The_Rock** » Thu Apr 03, 2008 5:16 pm

SupitsJonF wrote:The new system, against the better teams, is eventually going to get Torres injured. Every time he made an Arsenal defender look like a lower league player he was fouled (without cards being thrown) making him useless. Maybe if the player is on a yellow Torres can be effective, but without another man up with Torres all I see is a few goals and injury coming.

Actually if Kuyt and Babel did their job 100% correctly as a RF and LF...Torres won't be isolated upfront....

A good right and left forward will pull defenders away with their off the ball running, lay-offs, dribbling skills...etc and torres will have loads of space......

If we are to continue to use this formation....we need better players.....Maybe shift babel to the right and buy a quality (specialist) left winger/forward ... the key word is quality...not a jack of all trades like benayoun or a right footed player who can't even put a decent cross through his left feet (babel)....

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Thu Apr 03, 2008 10:06 pm

Bad Bob wrote:
god_bless_john_houlding wrote:Newcastle (2-1) defeat. Martins and Solano (pen...set peice because it's not open play)
.
.
.
United (1-0) loss. O'Shea pouncing from a spilled ball by Reina off a FREE KICK shot. (8 in 20)

So zonal marking is to blame when we conceed from a penalty or when our keeper spills it now? Great analysis...I'm convinced.

as I said, the penalty is still a set peice because it's not from open play. Maybe it's unfair to blame zonal marking for that, but it's still a goal from a set piece is it not?

As for O'Shea goal then it is down to zonal marking because none of the players were watching O'Shea. Nor where they ready to clear the ball when Reina spilled it. It's not like 20 mins have gone on and I'm blaming zonal marking, it's a simple error again (reina) and because of zonal marking nobody has picked O'Shea up and were all on their heels to turn and clear the ball. Sorry if this proves your belief that zonal marking works but lets face facts, it doesn't work and you know that you can't prove otherwise now.

by **LFC2007** » Thu Apr 03, 2008 10:38 pm

Scottbot wrote:I'm not 100% sure where i stand on the zonal marking situation. It does seem that we have gone through stages under Benitez where we are very solid from set-pieces and then follow this up with a run where we look dodgy and concede goals. But i must admit i tear my my hair out when i have to listen to the same old sh...i...t...e being trotted out by the ex-pros in the commentary/analyst box. VERY VERY lazy journalism for the most part and I thought Gordon Strachan (who is a deep thinker and anything but a lazy journo) got it spot on with his analysis yesterday.

There are two problems with the debate from what i can see.

1) When goals are conceded by teams who employ man-marking at set-plays it is simply brushed under the carpet. 'So and So' lost his man, his fault, let's move on.

2/ With Zonal marking there seems to be no-one to blame when a goal is scored. IT MUST BE THE SYSTEM!!!!! Cue the media fan-fare, IT NEVER WOULD HAVE BEEN A GOAL IF THEY WERE MAN MARKING!!!!!! There is deffo a typical British lack of understanding about the system.

3/ When a goal is conceded from Zonal marking we assume it is NOT because of an INDIVIDUAL error however, I agree with Strachan who pointed the finger at Hyppia for last night's goal. Again, his analysis was excellent and he talked about players needing to brave enough to STAY IN THEIR ZONE and ATTACK IT if it ENTERS THEIR ZONE. If we concede from zonal marking it is (more often than not) down to an individual(s) errors (rather like man-marking) within that system.

Didn't Hansen say the Liverpool side he played in for several seasons used zonal marking at set-plays? Am pretty sure that is the case. If so it kinda make GBJH sound a bit stupid?

Correct.

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