Liverpool FC Forum

[maguskwt]

Teams up there know well what they're doing and probably their reasons to man mark are well based.

Down here we left man marking in set pieces for several reasons.

1.- You have the danger that some of your players are dragged on purpose to a zone, leaving a gap somewhere else. That, with the annoying ability top division crossers had to put the ball in the gap,  made it extremely inpopular back in 1987 or something.

2. Is about unnecesary runs in normal defending (not set pieces). It's proved that zonal defending saves energies, players have to run less to  defend effectively (a long chase is unnecesary if the mate of the next zone covers it and you instead cover your mate)

Of course, zonal defending has other pros and known cons too (requires top concentration, requires lots of training, requires being done properly, what happens when 2 players invade your zone?), but those above reasons were mentioned a lot in the debates of 20 years ago.

I guess that in a league that more contact is allowed, maybe man marking has an extra point in it's favour, but still, I preffer the zonal one

Sabre is saying that English football is primitive...










  j/k

[Sabre]

No, Sabre is saying that each country has it fashions. You're doing all well in Europe with your traditions as of late .

What do you expected Magus? England says Man Marking and Europe Does man marking? No!

[66-1112520797]

With the goal last night I think it was a combination of things:

1) Clever movement from Adebayor, who started on the line and then stepped out in between the centre halves to meet the cross.

2) Poor communication from our lads--no one gave Sami a shout to alert him that Adebayor was stepping out

3) No one on our side attacking the ball.  Sami didn't make a play for the ball and neither did Skrtel (can't recall if he was the other in the immediate area).  Everyone acted like it was someone else's responsibility.

To me, that's an instance of poor execution within an otherwise effective system.

Watching that goal is horrible. You can say whatever you like about zonal and man-to-man marking, but it seriously needs to be looked at because it's not the first time we've conceded a stupid goal when a player has been unmarked.

Remember Arsenal away last season when Gallas scored? Gerrard and Riise were arguing amongst themselves about it and this game was the same. In such massive games, we shouldn't be gifting opponents a goal like that and it's something that needs addressing.

I just think man-to-man marking is easier because if you get beat by your man, then you know whose fault it is.

I think this to$h about zonal marking is only coming up because were playing with a new and young center half.

Why hasnt anyone been moaning about zonal marking for the last three years ? We've had one of the best defensive records.

Zonal marking is fine by me, its been proving unlike the "R" word. The only reason we seemed to be struggling as I said is because new players need to get used to it.

Zonal marking has been sound for us, nice work Rafa.

[woof woof !]

Your wish is my command:

Link

""We always used zonal marking when I won championships with Liverpool."


Wilkinson's analysis is spot on by the way[/IMO].

Think that link just about puts the arguement to bed 

It doesn't however explain the postions our players found themselves in when Adebayour scored , other than an admission that on this occasion defensively we just weren't good enough.

Take a look at the goal again , pause the video at the moment Adebayour heads the ball and look at the positions of the Asenal players and our players, it's embarrassingly worrying.

LFC defense gone awol

[radun5]

just like to go back to the zonal marking issue because it doesn't work.

in the last five games where we've conceeded at least one goal, we've conceeded a goal from a set peice. Arsenal, United, Reading, Bolton and Boro. It's more than conincidence. Only one of these five goals have been scored by someone's foot, so it's obvious that sides are winning the headers against us which is beyond the joke when you see the size of our squad, Hyypia, Skrtel, Carra, Gerrard, Torres, Babel are all well above six foot. It's pathetic the amount of times we conceed goals from set peices and the amount of open headers or shota the opposing side has from set peices.

Adebeyor last night, free header. Ronaldo free header. Reading fella unmarked on the edge of the box. Cohen unmarked for Bolton. Tuncay didn't even header the ball it came of his shoulder but because he's in so much space it still goes in. Pathetic and people who try and justify zonal marking are well to put it bluntly, idiots.

You, of all people, calling someone an idiot! 

For the sake of argument, let's assume you're not on a wind up for once and that you really don't think the system works.  If so, I ask you--how do you decide when it's the system's fault or when it's the players' fault for not executing the system?  After all, you got your knickers in a knot in the formation thread arguing that it was the players that let us down at Old Trafford not the system.  I would argue that that's exactly the case with zonal marking.  We've proven that zonal marking works over the last few seasons because our defensive record does not lie.  At the moment, our players are not executing their tasks as effectively within a proven system and it is costing us.

last season in the league lets take it game by game shall we.

Sheff Utd (2-1) conceeded through a set peice. Rob Hulse scored.
West Ham (2-1) conceeded through a fluke Zamaro cross.
Everton (3-0) took a pasting. Cahill with one and Johnson with two. Reina cocking up.
Chelsea (1-0) great finish by Drogba
Newcastle (2-0) win
Spurs (3-0) win
Bolton (2-0) lost. Speed scores from a free kick and Campo with a header from a corner.

So by the end of the first two months of last year we'd conceeded 8 goals, three from set peices. Less than one in every three, hardly working wonders at the start of the year.

Let's take a look at october through to Christmas

Blackburn (1-1) McCarthy putting away a Bentley cross.
United (2-0) loss. Scholes puts one away from close range and Ferdinand controls the ball from a corner.
Villa (3-1) win. Agbonglahor for them.
Reading (2-0) win.
Arsenal (3-0) loss. Flamini, Toure and Gallas. Gallas from a corner suprisingly.
Boro (0-0)
Man City (1-0)
Pompey (0-0)
Wigan (4-0)
Fulham (4-0)
Charlton (3-0)
Watford (2-0)

So we'd conceed two from set peices during this period taking it 5 conceed from 15. One in every five looking promising. Helped of course by seven straight clean sheets.

Let's take Boxing day through to the end of Febuary now.

Blackburn (1-0) loss. Tugay from a free kick.
Spurs (1-0) win.
Bolton (3-0) win.
Watford (3-0) win.
Chelsea (2-0) win.
West Ham (2-1) win. Blanco knocking home a cross.
Everton (0-0)
Newcastle (2-1) defeat. Martins and Solano (pen...set peice because it's not open play)
Sheff Utd (4-0) win.

So during this period we'd conceed an extra four goals, two from set peices. Taking the total to 7 from 19. Back to less than one in every three.

Final period of the season. Lets see how we fair.

United (1-0) loss. O'Shea pouncing from a spilled ball by Reina off a FREE KICK shot. (8 in 20)
Villa (0-0)
Arsenal (4-1) performance of the season. Still managed to conceed from a set peice. (9 in 21)
Reading (2-1) win. Gunnarson. (9 in 22)
Man City (0-0)
Boro (2-0) win
Wigan (2-0) win
Pompey (2-1) loss. Kranjacer and Benjani. (9 in 23)
Fulham (1-0) loss. Dempsey knocking in from close range. (9 in 24)
Charlton (2-2) draw. Holland and Bent. (9 in 26)

These are facts. You can't argue with facts. On average it was one goal in every three came from set peices, proves we weren't exactly excelling last year either as some like to believe. Again as I've said, just because we conceeded only 26 goals in the league, doesn't mean that our defending at set peices was any better. It's been ultimately worse this year, but still one in every three isn't exactly something to be proud of.

I cannot believe you, gbjh. Everytime I read one of your arguments I reach to the conclusion you cannot talk more nonsense, but this time I really think this is it.

You dismiss all the clean sheets as if they were somehow given, then you say that 1 goal in 3 coming from set pieces is bad, although the correct stat to use is how many goals in how many games ... so 9 goals in 38 games would be 1 goal in 4 games ... not so bad if you ask me, then we find out you also counted a penalty.

You are actually alone on this one, even the Rafa bashers say zonal marking is not a problem at our club, yet your stubbornness and self-sufficiency are enough to get you going beyond any limit.

Conclusion: you have outdone yourself, from now on I will take each of your posts as a joke. I bloody hope they are part of some subtle sarcasm the rest of us cannot understand.

[Judge]

some of his stuff has a valid point, other areas not so.

he is entitled to his opinion. be constructive in your criticism radun, it shows intelligence

just a thought for you mate

[Owzat]

With the goal last night I think it was a combination of things:

1) Clever movement from Adebayor, who started on the line and then stepped out in between the centre halves to meet the cross.

2) Poor communication from our lads--no one gave Sami a shout to alert him that Adebayor was stepping out

3) No one on our side attacking the ball.  Sami didn't make a play for the ball and neither did Skrtel (can't recall if he was the other in the immediate area).  Everyone acted like it was someone else's responsibility.

To me, that's an instance of poor execution within an otherwise effective system.

Watching that goal is horrible. You can say whatever you like about zonal and man-to-man marking, but it seriously needs to be looked at because it's not the first time we've conceded a stupid goal when a player has been unmarked.

Remember Arsenal away last season when Gallas scored? Gerrard and Riise were arguing amongst themselves about it and this game was the same. In such massive games, we shouldn't be gifting opponents a goal like that and it's something that needs addressing.

I just think man-to-man marking is easier because if you get beat by your man, then you know whose fault it is.

The biggest single problem with zonal marking is players don't know who they're picking up and who anyone else is, so they end up not knowing what to do. With man2man marking you know who you should be marking, that means everyone knows what they should be doing and if a player is unmarked then they will get the blame.

The advantage to having someone to blame is THEY know they are culpable, with zonal marking they can blame someone else or the system.

I suggest a man2zonal marking system, have the CBs man marking the main threats from set-pieces and everyone else go zonal. I don't recall the last time space scored a goal so what's the point marking areas that might or might not have someone in it? The aim of any player attacking a set-piece will be to lose their marker and find space, well they will find that a lot easier against Rafa.

Their goal was a gimme, stupidly soft and shows we won't win the league conceding soft goals like that. Our defence is pretty solid, LB aside, and yet we make the mancs and Chelski look way better. fergie would have thrown the kitchen sink at his defenders for conceding a goal like that

[Owzat]

Let's take a look at october through to Christmas

Blackburn (1-1) McCarthy putting away a Bentley cross.
United (2-0) loss. Scholes puts one away from close range and Ferdinand controls the ball from a corner.
Villa (3-1) win. Agbonglahor for them.
Reading (2-0) win.
Arsenal (3-0) loss. Flamini, Toure and Gallas. Gallas from a corner suprisingly.
Boro (0-0)
Man City (1-0)
Pompey (0-0)
Wigan (4-0)
Fulham (4-0)
Charlton (3-0)
Watford (2-0)

So we'd conceed two from set peices during this period taking it 5 conceed from 15. One in every five looking promising. Helped of course by seven straight clean sheets. And Fulham were the only side of those five to manage 38 goals ie a goal a game

Charlton, Watford, Wigan, Fulham - wow! How many set-pieces did we concede against those mighty sides, allowing for the fact that two were relegated and Wigan only just survived?

In fact I'll remind you of the table :-

16. Fulham
17. Wigan
18. Sheff Utd
19. Charlton
20. Watford

If we can't keep clean sheets against that lot then we're in serious trouble, the odds of conceding against them are pretty long so what odds of conceding from a set-piece?

[radun5]

He did not give any argument concerning the strength of the sides. And from what I know you can only beat what is in front of you.

Anyway, the cherry on top was the addition of the penalty because we all know it is a set-piece. This season we were pretty bad at set-pieces right from the start, our first 4 goals conceded were set-piece goals so the zonal-marking was also to blame, right ?

Just because he used stats does not mean he was using them in the right way.

[god_bless_john_houlding]

I don't like stats, they say what you want them to say, but as so many on here love their stats, and think their all be and end all of life I thought I'd show pretty basic stats for once. People say zonal marking works, I don't because it doesn't. Whehter it's the players, or whether it's the system, doesn't bother me, it's not working right now. My whole arguement has been that when we conceed (even when we've had great defenses under Benitez) the goals have come from set peices. Last year proved that, one in every three goals came from set peices. So it's not exactly excelling there is it?

As for those who are talking about Hansen, I've got to say congratulations are in order for being so idiotic. Whenever I come up with the arguement "we found Ian Rush from a mickey mouse lower league side like Chester, so why can't we find one now" I get the same response "football's moved on, times have changed" Yet those same people are now defending zonal marking from the 80s. I take it football hasn't moved on since then eh folks. Incredible. Anyway, if it worked back then, it should work now. I'm not one of these who thinks the basic princibles of football has changed over time, they're the same now as they were when the game was invented. So whatever has worked, will work again. Right now, and throughout Benitez' reign zonal marking hasn't worked, so that's either players or manager or system. Maybe the players aren't able to play this system effectively, maybe the manager hasn't instructed them or employed it properly. Either way, I'd rather we scrapped zonal marking because it's costing us dearly.

I'll go back on me word here though, because I don't recall Hansen defending zones, I remember him getting rid of the ball. So obviously zonal marking worked in the past, but if we want to be picky you could say every side uses zonal marking, just some mark a particular zone and others mark the zone where a particular player is in. Again I can't remember Hansen just standing static when corners came in like we do now. So obviously "zonal marking" has worked but it's not now, so I'll ask those who defend it and who think the system does work...is it the players aren't good enough? or is it the manager who isn't good enough?

[Judge]

He did not give any argument concerning the strength of the sides. And from what I know you can only beat what is in front of you.

Anyway, the cherry on top was the addition of the penalty because we all know it is a set-piece. This season we were pretty bad at set-pieces right from the start, our first 4 goals conceded were set-piece goals so the zonal-marking was also to blame, right ?

Just because he used stats does not mean he was using them in the right way.

thats your opinion, and he has his

[LFC2007]

As for those who are talking about Hansen, I've got to say congratulations are in order for being so idiotic. Whenever I come up with the arguement "we found Ian Rush from a mickey mouse lower league side like Chester, so why can't we find one now" I get the same response "football's moved on, times have changed" Yet those same people are now defending zonal marking from the 80s. I take it football hasn't moved on since then eh folks. Incredible. Anyway, if it worked back then, it should work now. I'm not one of these who thinks the basic princibles of football has changed over time, they're the same now as they were when the game was invented. So whatever has worked, will work again. Right now, and throughout Benitez' reign zonal marking hasn't worked, so that's either players or manager or system. Maybe the players aren't able to play this system effectively, maybe the manager hasn't instructed them or employed it properly. Either way, I'd rather we scrapped zonal marking because it's costing us dearly.

Well to answer your question here, not every system, strategy and theory from past eras are instantly transitional to the present. Let me distinguish the two:

Zonal marking is, and always will be transitional between eras as it's been proven to work in the present and in the past on numerous occasions with significant success (Valencia, Liverpool teams of present/Liverpool, Roma, Milan of past - there are others).

In terms of signing players from lower league clubs who are capable of reaching the required level for us, that's a strategy that worked in the past but hasn't worked in the present on anything like the same scale. The reasons for that are numerous and complex, and that's a point in itself.

One is merely a tactical system, and tactical systems in football are generally able to work in any era. Especially one so fundamental to the game. For example, there's no reason why a zonal marking system adopted by the title-winning Roma team of the 80's can't be successful now - which it has. You could argue that the disposition towards the system is greater now given the increase in the speed of the game, making it harder for defenders to keep up with players' movement in the box.

The other is a consequence of the times, a reality that is unavoidable, transfer strategies adapt to suit this reality.

In the event of the anticipated ludicrous reply, I refer you to this post and a dictionary.

[Bad Bob]

so I'll ask those who defend it and who think the system does work...is it the players aren't good enough? or is it the manager who isn't good enough?

It's not a question of being "good enough" or not.  Do we ask whether the Mancs are "good enough" when they concede from set pieces?  Did Ferdinand and Vidic suddenly become sh!t when West Ham beat them with two set pieces in December?  How about Chelsea?  Are Terry and Carvalho no longer up to it because they conceded 3 goals from set pieces against Spurs last month?  Our players have proven themselves "good enough" over the last few seasons and any manager who can get the likes of Djimi Traore and Djibril Cisse to slot into the system effectively as also good enough.

As with man-marking, zonal marking depends on anticipation, concentration, commitment and a certain amount of luck.  All teams, no matter what system they play, will concede a few goals from set pieces each season.  If we conceded more goals from set pieces than other teams in the league who man-marked, the question would be valid.  Since we don't, it's a moot point.  The system is fine, the players just need to execute it better than they have of late.

[god_bless_john_houlding]

look this is going round in circles, zonal marking for me doesn't work (right now at least) Whether it's teams finding us out, whether its players not employing it properly or whether it's Benitez putting the wrong men in the wrong positions...I don't know, but it's oviously not working. So somethig has to be done about it.

Constantly conceeding goals from set plays will cost us and have cost us. Stats may say we conceeded least goals from set pieces, yes but what they fail to tell you is that 33% of the goals we did conceed are from set plays. For me it has to be changed, even if its just for three or four games, just to see what a different system would achieve.

[stmichael]

look this is going round in circles, zonal marking for me doesn't work (right now at least) Whether it's teams finding us out, whether its players not employing it properly or whether it's Benitez putting the wrong men in the wrong positions...I don't know, but it's oviously not working. So somethig has to be done about it.

Constantly conceeding goals from set plays will cost us and have cost us. Stats may say we conceeded least goals from set pieces, yes but what they fail to tell you is that 33% of the goals we did conceed are from set plays. For me it has to be changed, even if its just for three or four games, just to see what a different system would achieve.

Up until this season we were conceding less than any other club in the league from set pieces, which could be because of outstanding players but I don't think so, especially as all of those players barring Pepe were already at the club, and if anything set pieces are Pepe's weak point.

I think nearly all of our central defenders have been making more errors at set pieces this season, and partially that could be down to not having Agger in the mix because he was massive last season, and partially because the whole system suffers a bit when you're trying to bed new players into it, i.e. Skrtel and to some extent Arbeloa.

The good news is that we should get better at it as Skrtel learns the system, because at the moment he's pulling the whole defence out of shape at times. The bad news is we will probably have a new fullback or two next season, although the earlier we get any new players in for pre-season training the better.