Liverpool FC Forum

by **bigmick** » Thu Apr 03, 2008 1:02 am

Sabre wrote:A simple question here.

Situation: Fabregas was left out of the match for long intervals of the game.

This was thanks to...

a) Partly the new system
b) Javier Mascherano's impressive work
c) Gerrard, Kuyt and Torres make an excellent first line of pressing
d) Rafa is a Tactical Genius
e) Luck
f) Not the best day of Fabregas, that's all
g) others

?

It's because we haven't been rotating. If we had, he's have scored a hat-trick :wwww

No I actually think that as they went in with a midfield four which was very much a surprise to me, both Flamini and Fabregas were nervous about leaving Gerrard to roam about. They'll probably go in with another central midfielder for the second leg and Fabregas will be much more effective. All that said, he would've scored the winner if his teammate hadn't cleared it off the line.

by **66-1112520797** » Thu Apr 03, 2008 7:51 am

Sabre wrote:A simple question here.

Situation: Fabregas was left out of the match for long intervals of the game.

This was thanks to...

a) Partly the new system
b) Javier Mascherano's impressive work
c) Gerrard, Kuyt and Torres make an excellent first line of pressing
d) Rafa is a Tactical Genius
e) Luck
f) Not the best day of Fabregas, that's all
g) others

?

His form has dropped and hopefully the hype with it to.

by **The_Rock** » Thu Apr 03, 2008 9:36 am

Sabre wrote:A simple question here.

Situation: Fabregas was left out of the match for long intervals of the game.

This was thanks to...

a) Partly the new system
b) Javier Mascherano's impressive work
c) Gerrard, Kuyt and Torres make an excellent first line of pressing
d) Rafa is a Tactical Genius
e) Luck
f) Not the best day of Fabregas, that's all
g) others

?

BECOS OF MONSTER MASCHERANO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Thu Apr 03, 2008 12:47 pm

just like to go back to the zonal marking issue because it doesn't work.

in the last five games where we've conceeded at least one goal, we've conceeded a goal from a set peice. Arsenal, United, Reading, Bolton and Boro. It's more than conincidence. Only one of these five goals have been scored by someone's foot, so it's obvious that sides are winning the headers against us which is beyond the joke when you see the size of our squad, Hyypia, Skrtel, Carra, Gerrard, Torres, Babel are all well above six foot. It's pathetic the amount of times we conceed goals from set peices and the amount of open headers or shota the opposing side has from set peices.

Adebeyor last night, free header. Ronaldo free header. Reading fella unmarked on the edge of the box. Cohen unmarked for Bolton. Tuncay didn't even header the ball it came of his shoulder but because he's in so much space it still goes in. Pathetic and people who try and justify zonal marking are well to put it bluntly, idiots.

by **Judge** » Thu Apr 03, 2008 12:54 pm

zonal markinh is fine providing that the player needs to be aware of those around him. you may find the oppo standing in areas outside that zonal area, and of course, those oppo players will get free headers etc.

how about if our lads zonally marked the opposition, rather than a given area?

by **Sabre** » Thu Apr 03, 2008 12:59 pm

Judge wrote:zonal markinh is fine providing that the player needs to be aware of those around him. you may find the oppo standing in areas outside that zonal area, and of course, those oppo players will get free headers etc.

how about if our lads zonally marked the opposition, rather than a given area?

Erm, the defence is called zonal because it's based on the area. Otherwise it can't be zonal.

There's an oftenly used hybrid option nobody mentions. Many teams have zonal defences around here, EXCEPT for one or two specific players who are marked individually.

by **Red in the Balkans** » Thu Apr 03, 2008 1:03 pm

god_bless_john_houlding wrote:just like to go back to the zonal marking issue because it doesn't work.

in the last five games where we've conceeded at least one goal, we've conceeded a goal from a set peice. Arsenal, United, Reading, Bolton and Boro. It's more than conincidence. Only one of these five goals have been scored by someone's foot, so it's obvious that sides are winning the headers against us which is beyond the joke when you see the size of our squad, Hyypia, Skrtel, Carra, Gerrard, Torres, Babel are all well above six foot. It's pathetic the amount of times we conceed goals from set peices and the amount of open headers or shota the opposing side has from set peices.

Adebeyor last night, free header. Ronaldo free header. Reading fella unmarked on the edge of the box. Cohen unmarked for Bolton. Tuncay didn't even header the ball it came of his shoulder but because he's in so much space it still goes in. Pathetic and people who try and justify zonal marking are well to put it bluntly, idiots.

What about the other two seasons when along with Chelsea conceded the least amount of goals? Or have you ignored that in order to suit your argument.

We have conceded goals from set pieces this year. That is a fact. Its not down to zonal marking, its down to poor communication between our players.

Skrtel for instance is still new to this system, and we have had Agger injured for 90 percent of the season as well. In 2005/2006 when Jamie and Sami played practically every game, we hardly conceded goals. That is down to continuity of the partnership in those two positions.

Where as this year we have had Skrtel-Carragher, Skrtel-Hyypia, and even Arbeloa has played as centerhalf with Hyypia or Carragher which have cost us goals.

Over to you now

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Thu Apr 03, 2008 1:05 pm

Sabre wrote:
Judge wrote:zonal markinh is fine providing that the player needs to be aware of those around him. you may find the oppo standing in areas outside that zonal area, and of course, those oppo players will get free headers etc.

how about if our lads zonally marked the opposition, rather than a given area?

Erm, the defence is called zonal because it's based on the area. Otherwise it can't be zonal.

There's an oftenly used hybrid option nobody mentions. Many teams have zonal defences around here, EXCEPT for one or two specific players who are marked individually.

Great point Sabre.

Taking the Everton game as an example, Skrtel was nearest to Osman while Alonso had Lescott

Osman still won the header as well :laugh:

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Thu Apr 03, 2008 1:09 pm

Red in the Balkans wrote:
god_bless_john_houlding wrote:just like to go back to the zonal marking issue because it doesn't work.

in the last five games where we've conceeded at least one goal, we've conceeded a goal from a set peice. Arsenal, United, Reading, Bolton and Boro. It's more than conincidence. Only one of these five goals have been scored by someone's foot, so it's obvious that sides are winning the headers against us which is beyond the joke when you see the size of our squad, Hyypia, Skrtel, Carra, Gerrard, Torres, Babel are all well above six foot. It's pathetic the amount of times we conceed goals from set peices and the amount of open headers or shota the opposing side has from set peices.

Adebeyor last night, free header. Ronaldo free header. Reading fella unmarked on the edge of the box. Cohen unmarked for Bolton. Tuncay didn't even header the ball it came of his shoulder but because he's in so much space it still goes in. Pathetic and people who try and justify zonal marking are well to put it bluntly, idiots.

What about the other two seasons when along with Chelsea conceded the least amount of goals? Or have you ignored that in order to suit your argument.

We have conceded goals from set pieces this year. That is a fact. Its not down to zonal marking, its down to poor communication between our players.

Skrtel for instance is still new to this system, and we have had Agger injured for 90 percent of the season as well. In 2005/2006 when Jamie and Sami played practically every game, we hardly conceded goals. That is down to continuity of the partnership in those two positions.

Where as this year we have had Skrtel-Carragher, Skrtel-Hyypia, and even Arbeloa has played as centerhalf with Hyypia or Carragher which have cost us goals.

Over to you now

go back a bit and you'll see what I say about the last couple of years. It doesn't means zonal marking works because it doesn't and never will.

Last couple of years our defenesive record has been top notch, we all know that, but it still doesn't mean zonal marking works. As I've said just because sides weren't scoring as often against us from set peices doesn't mean zonal marking works, because it doesn't and never will, all it means is they weren't putting the chances away. They still won the headers because they were unmarked. Like I've said, just because the stats say we "conceeded least goals from set peices" doesn't mean it works, because sides were still having free headers. It doesn't work and never will.

by **red187** » Thu Apr 03, 2008 1:39 pm

GBJH some times I think you argue just for the sake of it.

No marking systems work, period. Every team conceeds goals from corners and free kicks.

There isn't a system on the whole planet that is fool proof, but going on the stats for the last three years proves that Zonal works over Man marking.

Its the best way to restrict chances.

And if you look at the critism of Zonal, especially last night from Souness, its argued that Zonal marking doesn't allow for individual responsibility.

Thats the only real problem I have with it.

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Thu Apr 03, 2008 1:54 pm

no I don't argue for the sake of it, I argue because zonal marking doesn't work.

by **red187** » Thu Apr 03, 2008 2:01 pm

Well give a solution that works better, thats all. I agree that Zonal doesn't work but no system does.

You are arguing a point that is obvious to everyone, I never suggested that it works totally, so you are arguing for the sake of it.

Football is all about unpredictability if there were systems that worked everytime all the time it would be a very boring sport to watch.

by **Bad Bob** » Thu Apr 03, 2008 2:01 pm

god_bless_john_houlding wrote:just like to go back to the zonal marking issue because it doesn't work.

in the last five games where we've conceeded at least one goal, we've conceeded a goal from a set peice. Arsenal, United, Reading, Bolton and Boro. It's more than conincidence. Only one of these five goals have been scored by someone's foot, so it's obvious that sides are winning the headers against us which is beyond the joke when you see the size of our squad, Hyypia, Skrtel, Carra, Gerrard, Torres, Babel are all well above six foot. It's pathetic the amount of times we conceed goals from set peices and the amount of open headers or shota the opposing side has from set peices.

Adebeyor last night, free header. Ronaldo free header. Reading fella unmarked on the edge of the box. Cohen unmarked for Bolton. Tuncay didn't even header the ball it came of his shoulder but because he's in so much space it still goes in. Pathetic and people who try and justify zonal marking are well to put it bluntly, idiots.

You, of all people, calling someone an idiot! :laugh:

For the sake of argument, let's assume you're not on a wind up for once and that you really don't think the system works. If so, I ask you--how do you decide when it's the system's fault or when it's the players' fault for not executing the system? After all, you got your knickers in a knot in the formation thread arguing that it was the players that let us down at Old Trafford not the system. I would argue that that's exactly the case with zonal marking. We've proven that zonal marking works over the last few seasons because our defensive record does not lie. At the moment, our players are not executing their tasks as effectively within a proven system and it is costing us.

by **ConnO'var** » Thu Apr 03, 2008 2:09 pm

Bad Bob wrote:
god_bless_john_houlding wrote:just like to go back to the zonal marking issue because it doesn't work.

in the last five games where we've conceeded at least one goal, we've conceeded a goal from a set peice. Arsenal, United, Reading, Bolton and Boro. It's more than conincidence. Only one of these five goals have been scored by someone's foot, so it's obvious that sides are winning the headers against us which is beyond the joke when you see the size of our squad, Hyypia, Skrtel, Carra, Gerrard, Torres, Babel are all well above six foot. It's pathetic the amount of times we conceed goals from set peices and the amount of open headers or shota the opposing side has from set peices.

Adebeyor last night, free header. Ronaldo free header. Reading fella unmarked on the edge of the box. Cohen unmarked for Bolton. Tuncay didn't even header the ball it came of his shoulder but because he's in so much space it still goes in. Pathetic and people who try and justify zonal marking are well to put it bluntly, idiots.

You, of all people, calling someone an idiot!

For the sake of argument, let's assume you're not on a wind up for once and that you really don't think the system works. If so, I ask you--how do you decide when it's the system's fault or when it's the players' fault for not executing the system? After all, you got your knickers in a knot in the formation thread arguing that it was the players that let us down at Old Trafford not the system. I would argue that that's exactly the case with zonal marking. We've proven that zonal marking works over the last few seasons because our defensive record does not lie. At the moment, our players are not executing their tasks as effectively within a proven system and it is costing us.

Bob's got you there John.....

He's right you know.... Zonal marking does work. It's a proven system. And we can't even say that the defense has been rotated too much that theres no familiarity there... by now, everyone should know their roles.... The players need to hold their hands up on the goals conceded against set pieces.. lapses in concentration have cost us.

I'm not saying that zonal marking is the only way to go. I was critical of it when we 1st introduced it myself....as I'm partial to the hybrid system that Sabre mentioned.... But all evidence to date based on results and our defensive record over the last few years, have made me a believer and the data points to only one conclusion for me..... Zonal Marking does work.

by **LFC2007** » Thu Apr 03, 2008 2:16 pm

So we may have conceded fewer, and have a better defensive record over the past 3 and a bit seasons but for the zonal marking system?, bollocks.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with the system, it's proven to work in England and elsewhere, namely - Spain. We've had problems implementing the system this season but that doesn't render the system ineffectual.

It's proven to work and that cannot be disputed, unless of course you want to argue that Valencia would have conceded fewer and would've had a better defensive record but for the system too? That instead of conceding 27 a piece in both of his title winning seasons at Valencia, his side would've conceded fewer in total and fewer from set pieces if he'd adopted a man-marking system?

It's frankly utter shite.

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