Liverpool FC Forum

by **maguskwt** » Tue Apr 01, 2008 3:12 pm

god_bless_john_houlding wrote:well who cares, we all know zonal marking doesn't work. doesn't now and never will.

not many will agree but our weakness is not in the zonal marking... our weakness is pepe reina... he's just bad at collecting crosses...it's an obvious weakness and its' what other teams will take advantage.. that's the reason why he keeps punching the ball...

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Tue Apr 01, 2008 4:43 pm

Leonmc0708 wrote:
god_bless_john_houlding wrote:well who cares, we all know zonal marking doesn't work. doesn't now and never will.

Wind up surely ?

Zonal marking, the thing behind our menest defence bar none the last 3 years, Pepe's records and a couple of golden gloves ?

It'll never work.

so because we have a good defence means we're great at defending set peices? NO it doesn't.

Year in year out, we've struggled to defend set peices, just because we've had a great defence ove the past years doesn't mean zonal marking works. When we have conceeded over the past few years, 9 times out of 10 it's come from set peices. Mikele Sylvestre of all people scored from two corners in one match with our "perfect zonal marking". That's just one example off the top of me head.

Also the fact that we've got/had great defenders and keeper in the four years of Benitez' zonal marking is why our defence is so good. Zonal marking doesn't work and never will. The fact that the defence or keeper can keep the ball out of open play is why we've had the best defence in recent years, but the goals we have conceeded were still from set peices. Rivaldo for Olympiakos, Maldini in Istanbul, Cannavaro for Juve all in the same competition in the same season, again just off the top of me head. Other examples Lauren Robert for Newcastle, Ferdinand's winner for United or how about Tevez' winner this year or Ronaldo's header. Prime examples of time and time again where zonal marking hasn't and never will work.

by **banana** » Tue Apr 01, 2008 4:53 pm

john craig wrote:
bigmick wrote:Pace is important course it is. It won't make a bad player a good player, but it will make a good player who makes the odd bad decision a better one, or a good player who is difficult to play against even more difficult. Take for example Kuyt and Torres. Now if you're marking Kuyt, provided you don't get wrong side and you keep your wits about you there's half a chance you'll come out of it unscathed. If you do get wrong side or he does get slipped in by a good pass, you've got half a chance of getting to him before he gets his shot away. Contrast that with Torres, where not only have you got to be right side but you can't even afford to get marginal. You can't really pick him up in the same way as you'd pick Kuyt up, as you've got to be really carfeul of someone slipping him in 'cos you'll never catch the fecker in a million years. If he gets turned and runs towards you you've pretty much got to commit to a tackle or a block, as if you show him the outside he has the gears to just burn you off, whereas Kuyt hasn't.

Now obviously there's a World of difference between the two players in many ways, pace is just one of the many differences. I'm not having a pop at Kuyt either, Torres is very quick and you could put any number of strikers names in where Kuyts is and it's be the same situation. Would Torres's pace make Kuyt a better player? absolutely. It wouldn't make him as good as Torres is now, but it'd improve him out of all recognition course it would. If you gave Torres Kuyt's gears would it change him as a player? Absolutely, you've only got to look at the way Owen has lost some of his potency and cutting edge now his searing pace is reduced to that of a mere mortal. Doesn't mean Owen can't score a goal anymore, but it does mean he has to attack differently. he has to score more goals these days from his cleverness, his gambles on hitting spaces. Crucially it means defenders can play him different now, no longer in fear of his burning acclearation they can get in much tighter than they ever did in his younger days.

It's not the be all and end all, but pace is important to any player. There's not many footballers who wouldn't like a yard or two more afterburn that's for sure.

Think this pretty much sums up most of what I was going to say on the pace debate.

I've had this debate with Stu in the past, but I think in today's game pace is really important, especially out wide and up front. You don't need blistering pace throughout the team, but most top teams have 3 or 4 players in attacking postions who have reasonable pace. Quick defenders are a bonus, but as Hyypia has shown this season it's not a necessity.

I do however accept Stu's point about passing, technique and movement being important attributes. You only have to look at the AC Milan side over the past few seasons. The only quick player in the whole side was Kaka yet they were a really technically gifted team who played a younger, quicker Man United team off the park home and away in the CL semi. I do feel though that in the Premiership these days pace is more of a necessity than in Europe or some foreign leagues. Even the lesser teams have pace and can hit you on the break or turn your defence very quickly.

The pace debate is interesting. Both of you are right.

Pace should be substituted with tempo. Quality passing and movement is necessary for playing a high tempo. High tempo fatigues the opponent and break down their defence. High tempo is also partly about stamina and pace. So youre both right, end of.

Upping the tempo and playing a high tempo game is essential.

by **lakes10** » Tue Apr 01, 2008 9:25 pm

Judge wrote:
Bad Bob wrote:
lakes10 wrote:the thing is with all systems is if you keep to them and you play a team that has a good manager he would have looked at it for a long time and would have worked the best way around your system.

4-4-2 has worked for so many years and it give you the choice to make a small change with the same player on the field.

other systems tend to make you stick to it till you make at least 2 subs.

We can switch from 4-2-3-1 to 4-4-2 without making any subs: push Gerrard to RM and move Kuyt up to partner Torres, for instance.

kuyt is better at left back

left back in the changing rooms

lol.

Bad Bob, yes very true.

but i think Judge has the better idea.

by **JC_81** » Tue Apr 01, 2008 10:57 pm

god_bless_john_houlding wrote:
Leonmc0708 wrote:
god_bless_john_houlding wrote:well who cares, we all know zonal marking doesn't work. doesn't now and never will.

Wind up surely ?

Zonal marking, the thing behind our menest defence bar none the last 3 years, Pepe's records and a couple of golden gloves ?

It'll never work.

so because we have a good defence means we're great at defending set peices? NO it doesn't.

Year in year out, we've struggled to defend set peices, just because we've had a great defence ove the past years doesn't mean zonal marking works. When we have conceeded over the past few years, 9 times out of 10 it's come from set peices. Mikele Sylvestre of all people scored from two corners in one match with our "perfect zonal marking". That's just one example off the top of me head.

Also the fact that we've got/had great defenders and keeper in the four years of Benitez' zonal marking is why our defence is so good. Zonal marking doesn't work and never will. The fact that the defence or keeper can keep the ball out of open play is why we've had the best defence in recent years, but the goals we have conceeded were still from set peices. Rivaldo for Olympiakos, Maldini in Istanbul, Cannavaro for Juve all in the same competition in the same season, again just off the top of me head. Other examples Lauren Robert for Newcastle, Ferdinand's winner for United or how about Tevez' winner this year or Ronaldo's header. Prime examples of time and time again where zonal marking hasn't and never will work.

Not sure what the stats are this season, but last season we conceded less goals from set pieces than any other team in the Premiership, and at the same time Rafa was getting slated for zonal marking.

Zonal marking is not the problem with our defence, and the personnel is not the problem either. The only problem with our defence this season has been injuries, which have subsequently affected Carragher's form as he has not had a settled defence around him.

by **ConnO'var** » Wed Apr 02, 2008 12:33 am

Game intelligence falls under movement pretty much. You can have all the game intelligence in the world but if you can't pass or control a ball you're wasting your time.

Agreed of course

I absolutely hate the "pace" brigade and believe its the most overated and misunderstood attribute. Ever since Michael Owen and Ronaldo the game's changed,people want fast athletes now instead of world beating footballers. Look at Vassell, a "pace" merchant. Very very average player. Pace means next to nothing in football.

Partially agreed. Vassell is an extreme example at one end of the spectrum. Pace can be over-rated but in today's context, it cannot be ignored. There are too many teams out there with very average players but who are quick that can still the mickey out of the big teams on occasion due to this one attribute

You then go on to mention Gerrard, Ronaldo and whoever else... thats like saying if Hyypia couldn't head a ball he'd be half the centre half he was or if Fowler couldn't finish he would never be a legend... its an absoloutely poor attempt at an arguement. Paul Scholes isn't a quick player, inifact, he's a very slow player at that and is easily one of the best in the world and has been over the last 10 years. Robbie Fowler was never pacey or even quick, just average at best, Then theres Fabregas, another player without blinding pace who's an excellent player. Hyypia over the last 10 years, Gareth Barry, the overated Lampard... Theres millions of top players and "top" players out there without genuine pace.

I feel that the arguement is valid because what makes a player good or otherwise is the complete package. That player has to work within his physical limitations. Pace, unlike heading or finishing is something you cannot improve through coaching. You either have it or you don't. How you shape your game depends on what your own limits are. I do agree with you on Fabregas and Scholes.... they are not that quick but remain brilliant. But honestly mate, that's neither here or there as I did say that it (pace) is not everything. Plus in one of the central midfield roles, we can afford the luxury of a slower player as it's a thinking man's role.... they don't need outright pace there but they need to be quick over a few yards and both Cesc and Scholes are.

The thing that baffles me is people's short memory, it was only a couple of seasons ago we reached our best ever points tally... we had a line up of Fowler/Morientes, Crouch, Gerrard, Kewell, Sissoko, Alonso, Riise, Finnan, Hyypia and Carragher, bar Gerrard only Kewell and Sissoko are anything like "quick" and i wouldn't use that word to describe them. The only reason that side didn't do even better was one or two players weren't quite up to it, nothing to do with pace, its a slow side but its got ability and could keep the ball. People seem to forget how good that team was when talking about "pace"...

Agreed

You then go on to mention players with Pace:

Vidic, Carvalho and Terry are certainly not what I'd call quick players, not even remotely.

Joe Cole is another that I wouldn't class as particuarly quick either.

The others have a fair bit of pace but so what?

As I said above and in the previous post. I'm not saying their fast outright but they are quick over a few yards, imo, and that is key.

Pace isn't and never will be anything like as important as its made out to be. You'll never see players like Scholes and Fowler anymore and Shearer as they aren't natural athletes which alot of these "scouts" and managers look for... Think of how good those lads are... none of them are natural athletes, these are the players getting let go... the likes of Ashton, Kitson and Bullard are all more than capable of playing in top sides, but this obsession with pace and physical ability has swept english football... probably one of the reasons the England team is a pile of .

Sadly, the bulk of what you wrote here I agree with as it is to the detriment of the game.... Don't agree about Ashton and Kitson.... but Bullard is some player for sure and has grown on me

Pace is great for players like Torres and Owen etc... the know how to use it. The fact is they are world class players and thats one of there abilities... Just as passing is one of Scholes'. Players like Vassell, Akinbiyi, Heskey all have pace, look at them. Infact, Vassell is one of the quickest players in the league, does all for him.

As I've said, pace means nothing if you get the right players. Quality is what matters and keeping the ball and using it properly, nothing else.

Agree that quality is what matters but disagree that pace means nothing. I may be wrong and would love to be proven wrong as you learn something new everyday, but I'd bet that you'd be hard pressed to form a team comprising of slow, quality players in premiership over the last few years. A genuine team capable of winning the league

People see a player run fast these days and think they're a great player... Cisse being the perfect example.

Agreed. Cr@p player

i think in this day and age of football the bestplayers are not just good footballers but good athletes aswell,passing movement touch pace strength stamina are whats needed these days

this argument is pointless because both of you are right in what you suggest is important but both of you are wrong when suggesting what is less important

It's not an arguement redblood..... just a discussion....and an interesting one at that..... I don't think I've had this much fun sitting in an airport waiting for a flight.

to move forward we need to sign players with all the attributes you both mention

Stu, we're going around in circles, mate.... We're essentially agreeing on most points but disagree on some...

I'm still unsure about doing the partial quotes thing so I've replied to your post in the quoted section above using bold font.

PS: Sorry... I screwed it up again.... quoted redblood's post while trying to answer stu's points within redblood's post.... Then tried to correct it and screwed it up further!
Bloody computer illiterate... :blush:

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Wed Apr 02, 2008 1:37 am

con

by **66-1112520797** » Wed Apr 02, 2008 7:13 am

Sabre wrote:In the in depth interview to Rafa, he mentions that in England you focus too much in the abilities of a certain player, rather than the team as a whole, and I tend to agree.

Torres and Mascherano are good examples. Both of them were the same player with the same ability in their previous teams (West Ham, Atletico) but they've become "world class" when surrounded by the proper players/system. Torres' pace never helped him to get 28 goals in a season as he has done this year. Pace, is important yes, but at some extent. I'm sure Aldridge who was not pacy, still would poach 20 goals a season if he played these days, because he was clever.

Well that hasnt helped Kuyt or Alonso this season has it.

Torres was excellent before he came here and mascharano was altready an established international.

And if he is right about US 'English' focussing on individuals too much, how comes he plays Carragher all the time and Gerrard 98% of the time ?

Because he knows certain individuals can make a good team ?

If he'd like us to focus on the team more, well then we're a pretty decent side who scraps it out for third and mostly fourth spot every year. As a team we never mount a title challenge because certain players arent good enough (cough cough). We're a really good team in Europe, as Rafa admitted once the title challenge i over in October/November time he can "focus" more on the competition he has the chance of winning, hense the European cup.

All in all were a decent team, who like other teams rely heavily on our stars.

by **stmichael** » Wed Apr 02, 2008 12:10 pm

Nothing will change tonight for sure. We destroyed Arsenal 4-1 last season playing this system. Funny enough, we actually played with two wingers that day aswell.

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Wed Apr 02, 2008 10:51 pm

john craig wrote:
god_bless_john_houlding wrote:
Leonmc0708 wrote:
god_bless_john_houlding wrote:well who cares, we all know zonal marking doesn't work. doesn't now and never will.

Wind up surely ?

Zonal marking, the thing behind our menest defence bar none the last 3 years, Pepe's records and a couple of golden gloves ?

It'll never work.

so because we have a good defence means we're great at defending set peices? NO it doesn't.

Year in year out, we've struggled to defend set peices, just because we've had a great defence ove the past years doesn't mean zonal marking works. When we have conceeded over the past few years, 9 times out of 10 it's come from set peices. Mikele Sylvestre of all people scored from two corners in one match with our "perfect zonal marking". That's just one example off the top of me head.

Also the fact that we've got/had great defenders and keeper in the four years of Benitez' zonal marking is why our defence is so good. Zonal marking doesn't work and never will. The fact that the defence or keeper can keep the ball out of open play is why we've had the best defence in recent years, but the goals we have conceeded were still from set peices. Rivaldo for Olympiakos, Maldini in Istanbul, Cannavaro for Juve all in the same competition in the same season, again just off the top of me head. Other examples Lauren Robert for Newcastle, Ferdinand's winner for United or how about Tevez' winner this year or Ronaldo's header. Prime examples of time and time again where zonal marking hasn't and never will work.

Not sure what the stats are this season, but last season we conceded less goals from set pieces than any other team in the Premiership, and at the same time Rafa was getting slated for zonal marking.

Zonal marking is not the problem with our defence, and the personnel is not the problem either. The only problem with our defence this season has been injuries, which have subsequently affected Carragher's form as he has not had a settled defence around him.

again we conceeded least goals from set pecies therefore it works? No it doesn't and it didn't tonight. Zonal marking WILL NEVER work.

Last season we may of conceeded least goals from set peices what does that prove...it may prove we give the least set peices away, it may prove teams missed the chances or it may prove sides didn't put in enough quality from their set peices.

I don't know what the figures are, but I can assume that the goals we did conceed last year were probably from set peices. It doesn't work and NEVER WILL.

by **woof woof !** » Wed Apr 02, 2008 11:25 pm

god_bless_john_houlding wrote:I don't know what the figures are, but I can assume that the goals we did conceed last year were probably from set peices.

Well GBJH , when you put it that way it's hard to argue with such well researched facts . :laugh:

Jeezuz H Christ ! do you actually read the shi'te you post ? or is it just another wind up ?

by **Rush Job** » Wed Apr 02, 2008 11:36 pm

god_bless_john_houlding wrote:
john craig wrote:
god_bless_john_houlding wrote:
Leonmc0708 wrote:
god_bless_john_houlding wrote:well who cares, we all know zonal marking doesn't work. doesn't now and never will.

Wind up surely ?

Zonal marking, the thing behind our menest defence bar none the last 3 years, Pepe's records and a couple of golden gloves ?

It'll never work.

so because we have a good defence means we're great at defending set peices? NO it doesn't.

Year in year out, we've struggled to defend set peices, just because we've had a great defence ove the past years doesn't mean zonal marking works. When we have conceeded over the past few years, 9 times out of 10 it's come from set peices. Mikele Sylvestre of all people scored from two corners in one match with our "perfect zonal marking". That's just one example off the top of me head.

Also the fact that we've got/had great defenders and keeper in the four years of Benitez' zonal marking is why our defence is so good. Zonal marking doesn't work and never will. The fact that the defence or keeper can keep the ball out of open play is why we've had the best defence in recent years, but the goals we have conceeded were still from set peices. Rivaldo for Olympiakos, Maldini in Istanbul, Cannavaro for Juve all in the same competition in the same season, again just off the top of me head. Other examples Lauren Robert for Newcastle, Ferdinand's winner for United or how about Tevez' winner this year or Ronaldo's header. Prime examples of time and time again where zonal marking hasn't and never will work.

Not sure what the stats are this season, but last season we conceded less goals from set pieces than any other team in the Premiership, and at the same time Rafa was getting slated for zonal marking.

Zonal marking is not the problem with our defence, and the personnel is not the problem either. The only problem with our defence this season has been injuries, which have subsequently affected Carragher's form as he has not had a settled defence around him.

again we conceeded least goals from set pecies therefore it works? No it doesn't and it didn't tonight. Zonal marking WILL NEVER work.

Last season we may of conceeded least goals from set peices what does that prove...it may prove we give the least set peices away, it may prove teams missed the chances or it may prove sides didn't put in enough quality from their set peices.

I don't know what the figures are, but I can assume that the goals we did conceed last year were probably from set peices. It doesn't work and NEVER WILL.

Well if my memory serves well we were much worse at defending set peices before Rafa. If there is a weakness its with Reina who is a very similar keeper to David James in that he has great reactions but maybe comes off his line to much and is dodgy with crosses, good distrabution, not best in the world, not best in the league but unlike James he`s young and will improve, i say again not the best in the world, not the best in the league.
Its at the other end i wish we would improve, dont score enough from corners but, then we never have.

by **ConnO'var** » Thu Apr 03, 2008 12:30 am

god_bless_john_houlding wrote: con

Cheeky old geezer...

by **Sabre** » Thu Apr 03, 2008 12:42 am

A simple question here.

Situation: Fabregas was left out of the match for long intervals of the game.

This was thanks to...

a) Partly the new system
b) Javier Mascherano's impressive work
c) Gerrard, Kuyt and Torres make an excellent first line of pressing
d) Rafa is a Tactical Genius
e) Luck
f) Not the best day of Fabregas, that's all
g) others

?

by **bigmick** » Thu Apr 03, 2008 12:59 am

Well whatever anyone says about the new system, and I must confess we aren't exactly ripping it up in terms of cohesion and fluency, we are continuing to grind out results. I'm especially encouraged by the sensible team selections and the establishment of some sort of formational continuity. It now appears that we have bounced back from a fairly poor showing at Man Utd and have seemingly avoided the earlier tendency to turn every defeat into a bliiiiiiiiiiiiiiip. Consistency of selection does this, it gives the players a platform to find some kind of form. The levels of achievement being reached by Kuyt in particular these days are a glowing endorsement of how much a player can and will improve once he feels secure in his surroundings.

Now the league game is coming round though, I would fully endorse some rotation and no doubt Rafa won't let us down. Despite the baffling decision to bring Voronin on today, I hope he starts with Crouch or even Babel up top and gives Torres a rest. Similarly, Lucas can take Gerrards place, and Carragher should move back into the centre with Hyppia having a day off. I'd definately keep the same pattern and formation, but I'd let the main players have the day off. It wouldn't be an absolute disaster if we were to lose the game although obviously I'd rather not, but playing a weakened team wouldn't be delayed gazelle it'd be current gazelle, and also it would lessen any phsycological advantage they could gain by getting one over on us.

Over to you Rafa, time for some styling.

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