Liverpool FC Forum

ConnO'var wrote:

Fo Dne wrote:

ConnO'var wrote:

Fo Dne wrote:Its  all about pace. Nothing matters except pace. Pace means everything...

THE  MOST  IMPORTANT  THINGS  IN FOOTBALL  ARE   PASSING, TOUCH AND  MOVEMENT in order.

END OF

End of? No mate.....

Pace is not the be all and end all but in the modern game, it's an important aspect as well...

If passing, touch and movement are the most important things in football... we'd have molby, dalglish and rush still playing today.

The most important things in football is to score more goals than the opponent on the day.

END OF

Ok smart , lets go with that, why don't we just sign Torres, Owen, Yakubu, Defoe, Keane and play 10 strikers and a goal keeper?

The fact is, and its no conincidence that the best teams can all pass a ball. The great Liverpool sides were all built on passing and moving, the best teams in the world all have 11 players who good passers of a football and know where to go  at what time. The more possession you have, the harder you are to beat and the more pressure you can apply to oppenents. The reason Reading were so good last season is that although they didn't have alot of players with great ability, they had quite a few and alot of them were very comfortable with the ball at there feet and they could keep the ball.

Babel loses the ball to much in the opposition half, as does Kuyt, the more passes you complete in that half of the pitch the better, you're more likely to find an opening.

Speaking as a player, theres nothing more frustrating than playing with players who keep losing the ball under no pressure or players who just can't keep the ball full stop. It pisses good players off when others don't keep the ball, you can deal with players playing the wrong pass aslong as they don't give it away. A couple of times this season (all be it at a completely different standard) We've had a lad for our Saturday team play upfront, the other week, we had a better player on the bench, absoloutely everything going forward broke down with him because he can't control or pass a ball, second half, the better player comes on we  end up winning the match 4-1 and it could have been eight  or nine, we also miissed a penalty.

It makes a  difference, a big difference.

Mate,

I'm not disagreeing with you that the attributes you mentioned (paasing, touch and movement) are extremely important... of course they are. And I would add another one to the mix.... game intelligence.

But you seem to suggest/imply that pace is not important at all.... or maybe you were just trying to make a point. Pace is a very important attribute,imho, that you seem to be knocking at every opportunity. I'm sure you'd agree that Gerrard, Torres, C. Ronaldo etc can be safely classified as world class players. Imagine for a minute if you were to take away their pace and make them 2 or 3 paces slower than they currently are.... would they still be as effective and devastating as they are? I don't.... they'd still be very, very good players but no longer as effective and maybe even, no longer in the realm of "world class".

There are positions in a conventional line-up, that you need pace... wingers, fullbacks being the most obvious. Why? to counteract the attacking capabilities of the opposing teams who invariably have pace in abundance.... How are you going to neutralize pacy wingers if you don't have quick players to keep up with them and vise versa? Especially in England where the game is played at a frenetic pace..... In Italy and Spain, where the pace of the game is more measured and calculated, this aspect of a player's ability is not as important but is STILL an awesome weapon to have.

Blistering pace is not required... but quickness and acceleration over short distances is well needed IMHO. Look around at the pantheon of players in the top 3 teams plying their trade in the premiership at the moment.

Centre Back
Ferdinand
Terry
Vidic
Carvalho
Gallas
Toure

Fullbacks
Evra
Wes Brown
Belleti
A. Cole
Sagna
Clichy

Wingers
Ronaldo
Giggs
J. Cole
SW Phillips
Eboue
Hleb/Walcott

Center Forwards
Saha
Rooney
Drogba
Anelka
Adebayor
The guy who broke his leg... can't remember his name.

These guys are not exactly pedestrian are they? They may not all be blindingly quick but quick nonetheless. Yes, they have other attributes as well but one common denominator is pace. I'm probably missing a few but there are very few players in this position, playing for the top 3 teams, who can be specified as slow..

I agree with you in that PACE per se, is not the be all and end all..... but it IS important.

To imply or suggest otherwise is simplistic to the extreme, I feel.

Game intelligence falls under movement pretty much. You can have all the game intelligence in the world but if you can't pass or control a ball you're wasting your time.

I absoloutely hate the "pace" brigade and believe its the most overated and misunderstood attribute. Ever since Michael Owen and Ronaldo the game's changed, people want fast athletes now instead of world beating footballers. Look at Vassell, a "pace" merchant. Very very average player. Pace means next to nothing in football.

You then go on to mention Gerrard, Ronaldo and whoever else... thats like saying if Hyypia couldn't head a ball he'd be half the centre half he was or if Fowler couldn't finish he would never be a legend... its an absoloutely poor attempt at an arguement. Paul Scholes isn't a quick player, inifact, he's a very slow player at that and is easily one of the best in the world and has been over the last 10 years. Robbie Fowler was never pacey or even quick, just average at best,  Then theres Fabregas, another player without blinding pace who's an excellent player. Hyypia over the last 10 years, Gareth Barry, the overated Lampard... Theres millions of top players and "top" players out there without genuine pace.

The thing that baffles me is people's short memory, it was only a couple of seasons ago we reached our best ever points tally... we had a line up of Fowler/Morientes, Crouch, Gerrard, Kewell, Sissoko, Alonso, Riise, Finnan, Hyypia and Carragher, bar Gerrard only Kewell and Sissoko are anything like "quick" and i wouldn't use that word to describe them. The only reason that side didn't do even better was one or two players weren't quite up to it, nothing to do with pace, its a slow side but its got ability and could keep the ball. People seem to forget how good that team was when talking about "pace"...

You then go on to mention players with Pace:

Vidic, Carvalho and Terry are certainly not what I'd call quick players, not even remotely.

Joe Cole is another that I wouldn't class as particuarly quick either.

The others have a fair bit of pace but so what?

Pace isn't and never will be anything like as important as  its made out to be. You'll never see players like Scholes and Fowler anymore and Shearer as they aren't natural athletes which alot of these "scouts" and managers look for... Think  of how good those lads are... none of them are natural athletes, these are the players getting let go... the likes of Ashton, Kitson and Bullard are all more than capable of playing in top sides, but this obsession with pace and physical ability has swept english football... probably one of the reasons the England team is a pile of .

Pace is great for players like Torres and Owen etc... the know how to use it. The fact is they are world class players and thats one of there abilities... Just as passing is one of Scholes'. Players like Vassell, Akinbiyi, Heskey all have pace, look at them. Infact, Vassell is one of the quickest players in the league, does all for him.

As I've said, pace means nothing if you get the right players. Quality is what matters and keeping the ball and using it properly,  nothing else.

People see a player run fast these days and think they're a great player... Cisse being the perfect example.

Fo Dne wrote:

ConnO'var wrote:

Fo Dne wrote:

ConnO'var wrote:

Fo Dne wrote:Its  all about pace. Nothing matters except pace. Pace means everything...

THE  MOST  IMPORTANT  THINGS  IN FOOTBALL  ARE   PASSING, TOUCH AND  MOVEMENT in order.

END OF

End of? No mate.....

Pace is not the be all and end all but in the modern game, it's an important aspect as well...

If passing, touch and movement are the most important things in football... we'd have molby, dalglish and rush still playing today.

The most important things in football is to score more goals than the opponent on the day.

END OF

Ok smart , lets go with that, why don't we just sign Torres, Owen, Yakubu, Defoe, Keane and play 10 strikers and a goal keeper?

The fact is, and its no conincidence that the best teams can all pass a ball. The great Liverpool sides were all built on passing and moving, the best teams in the world all have 11 players who good passers of a football and know where to go  at what time. The more possession you have, the harder you are to beat and the more pressure you can apply to oppenents. The reason Reading were so good last season is that although they didn't have alot of players with great ability, they had quite a few and alot of them were very comfortable with the ball at there feet and they could keep the ball.

Babel loses the ball to much in the opposition half, as does Kuyt, the more passes you complete in that half of the pitch the better, you're more likely to find an opening.

Speaking as a player, theres nothing more frustrating than playing with players who keep losing the ball under no pressure or players who just can't keep the ball full stop. It pisses good players off when others don't keep the ball, you can deal with players playing the wrong pass aslong as they don't give it away. A couple of times this season (all be it at a completely different standard) We've had a lad for our Saturday team play upfront, the other week, we had a better player on the bench, absoloutely everything going forward broke down with him because he can't control or pass a ball, second half, the better player comes on we  end up winning the match 4-1 and it could have been eight  or nine, we also miissed a penalty.

It makes a  difference, a big difference.

Mate,

I'm not disagreeing with you that the attributes you mentioned (paasing, touch and movement) are extremely important... of course they are. And I would add another one to the mix.... game intelligence.

But you seem to suggest/imply that pace is not important at all.... or maybe you were just trying to make a point. Pace is a very important attribute,imho, that you seem to be knocking at every opportunity. I'm sure you'd agree that Gerrard, Torres, C. Ronaldo etc can be safely classified as world class players. Imagine for a minute if you were to take away their pace and make them 2 or 3 paces slower than they currently are.... would they still be as effective and devastating as they are? I don't.... they'd still be very, very good players but no longer as effective and maybe even, no longer in the realm of "world class".

There are positions in a conventional line-up, that you need pace... wingers, fullbacks being the most obvious. Why? to counteract the attacking capabilities of the opposing teams who invariably have pace in abundance.... How are you going to neutralize pacy wingers if you don't have quick players to keep up with them and vise versa? Especially in England where the game is played at a frenetic pace..... In Italy and Spain, where the pace of the game is more measured and calculated, this aspect of a player's ability is not as important but is STILL an awesome weapon to have.

Blistering pace is not required... but quickness and acceleration over short distances is well needed IMHO. Look around at the pantheon of players in the top 3 teams plying their trade in the premiership at the moment.

Centre Back
Ferdinand
Terry
Vidic
Carvalho
Gallas
Toure

Fullbacks
Evra
Wes Brown
Belleti
A. Cole
Sagna
Clichy

Wingers
Ronaldo
Giggs
J. Cole
SW Phillips
Eboue
Hleb/Walcott

Center Forwards
Saha
Rooney
Drogba
Anelka
Adebayor
The guy who broke his leg... can't remember his name.

These guys are not exactly pedestrian are they? They may not all be blindingly quick but quick nonetheless. Yes, they have other attributes as well but one common denominator is pace. I'm probably missing a few but there are very few players in this position, playing for the top 3 teams, who can be specified as slow..

I agree with you in that PACE per se, is not the be all and end all..... but it IS important.

To imply or suggest otherwise is simplistic to the extreme, I feel.

Game intelligence falls under movement pretty much. You can have all the game intelligence in the world but if you can't pass or control a ball you're wasting your time.

I absoloutely hate the "pace" brigade and believe its the most overated and misunderstood attribute. Ever since Michael Owen and Ronaldo the game's changed, people want fast athletes now instead of world beating footballers. Look at Vassell, a "pace" merchant. Very very average player. Pace means next to nothing in football.

You then go on to mention Gerrard, Ronaldo and whoever else... thats like saying if Hyypia couldn't head a ball he'd be half the centre half he was or if Fowler couldn't finish he would never be a legend... its an absoloutely poor attempt at an arguement. Paul Scholes isn't a quick player, inifact, he's a very slow player at that and is easily one of the best in the world and has been over the last 10 years. Robbie Fowler was never pacey or even quick, just average at best,  Then theres Fabregas, another player without blinding pace who's an excellent player. Hyypia over the last 10 years, Gareth Barry, the overated Lampard... Theres millions of top players and "top" players out there without genuine pace.

The thing that baffles me is people's short memory, it was only a couple of seasons ago we reached our best ever points tally... we had a line up of Fowler/Morientes, Crouch, Gerrard, Kewell, Sissoko, Alonso, Riise, Finnan, Hyypia and Carragher, bar Gerrard only Kewell and Sissoko are anything like "quick" and i wouldn't use that word to describe them. The only reason that side didn't do even better was one or two players weren't quite up to it, nothing to do with pace, its a slow side but its got ability and could keep the ball. People seem to forget how good that team was when talking about "pace"...

You then go on to mention players with Pace:

Vidic, Carvalho and Terry are certainly not what I'd call quick players, not even remotely.

Joe Cole is another that I wouldn't class as particuarly quick either.

The others have a fair bit of pace but so what?

Pace isn't and never will be anything like as important as  its made out to be. You'll never see players like Scholes and Fowler anymore and Shearer as they aren't natural athletes which alot of these "scouts" and managers look for... Think  of how good those lads are... none of them are natural athletes, these are the players getting let go... the likes of Ashton, Kitson and Bullard are all more than capable of playing in top sides, but this obsession with pace and physical ability has swept english football... probably one of the reasons the England team is a pile of .

Pace is great for players like Torres and Owen etc... the know how to use it. The fact is they are world class players and thats one of there abilities... Just as passing is one of Scholes'. Players like Vassell, Akinbiyi, Heskey all have pace, look at them. Infact, Vassell is one of the quickest players in the league, does all for him.

As I've said, pace means nothing if you get the right players. Quality is what matters and keeping the ball and using it properly,  nothing else.

People see a player run fast these days and think they're a great player... Cisse being the perfect example.

i think in this day and age of football the bestplayers are not just good footballers but good athletes aswell, passing movement touch pace strength stamina are whats needed these days

this argument is pointless because both of you are right in what you suggest is important but both of you are wrong when suggesting what is less important

to move forward we need to sign players with all the attributes you both mention 

bigmick wrote:Pace is important course it is. It won't make a bad player a good player, but it will make a good player who makes the odd bad decision a better one, or a good player who is difficult to play against even more difficult. Take for example Kuyt and Torres. Now if you're marking Kuyt, provided you don't get wrong side and you keep your wits about you there's half a chance you'll come out of it unscathed. If you do get wrong side or he does get slipped in by a good pass, you've got half a chance of getting to him before he gets his shot away. Contrast that with Torres, where not only have you got to be right side but you can't even afford to get marginal. You can't really pick him up in the same way as you'd pick Kuyt up, as you've got to be really carfeul of someone slipping him in 'cos you'll never catch the fecker in a million years. If he gets turned and runs towards you you've pretty much got to commit to a tackle or a block, as if you show him the outside he has the gears to just burn you off, whereas Kuyt hasn't.

Now obviously there's a World of difference between the two players in many ways, pace is just one of the many differences. I'm not having a pop at Kuyt either, Torres is very quick and you could put any number of strikers names in where Kuyts is and it's be the same situation. Would Torres's pace make Kuyt a better player? absolutely. It wouldn't make him as good as Torres is now, but it'd improve him out of all recognition course it would. If you gave Torres Kuyt's gears would it change him as a player? Absolutely, you've only got to look at the way Owen has lost some of his potency and cutting edge now his searing pace is reduced to that of a mere mortal. Doesn't mean Owen can't score a goal anymore, but it does mean he has to attack differently. he has to score more goals these days from his cleverness, his gambles on hitting spaces. Crucially it means defenders can play him different now, no longer in fear of his burning acclearation they can get in much tighter than they ever did in his younger days.

It's not the be all and end all, but pace is important to any player. There's not many footballers who wouldn't like a yard or two more afterburn that's for sure.

lakes10 wrote:the thing is with all systems is if you keep to them and you play a team that has a good manager he would have looked at it for a long time and would have worked the best way around your system.

4-4-2 has worked for so many years and it give you the choice to make a small change with the same player on the field.

other systems tend to make you stick to it till you make at least 2 subs.

Bad Bob wrote:

lakes10 wrote:the thing is with all systems is if you keep to them and you play a team that has a good manager he would have looked at it for a long time and would have worked the best way around your system.

4-4-2 has worked for so many years and it give you the choice to make a small change with the same player on the field.

other systems tend to make you stick to it till you make at least 2 subs.

We can switch from 4-2-3-1 to 4-4-2 without making any subs: push Gerrard to RM and move Kuyt up to partner Torres, for instance.

god_bless_john_houlding wrote:I don't care what stats say, the truth is zonal marking doesn't work.

Well no offense mate but if it's choice between the stats and your opinions on the matter, I'll take the stats all day long.  You chat an unbelievable amount of nonsense for someone who supposedly has been following footy since he was a nipper.

god_bless_john_houlding wrote:Pace in the modern game is essential as our the ability to pass, score and move. Every team needs these four things along with pride, passion, hunger and consistancy. Liverpool's problems at the momemnt out of the four technique parts is movement. Our midfielders don't move enough, they sit back and admire their latest pass. Our defenders are pretty much static all the time. We've got pace, we can pass and we can score, but our movement is non existant at times. The only option that becomes available is Torres.

Benayoun for Babel for me wasn't the right sub. Bring Babel off, fair enough he wasn't playing all that well, but bring Pennant or Crouch on. Someone who offers a lot more in attack. 1-0 down you need to score, not sure things up at the back. Benayoun hardly touched the ball when he came on so it wasn't exactly a masterstroke. I really didn't see the sense in it, leaving Crouch on the bench when you're getting beat

And Bob, whoopty do Ronaldo scored. 1 goal in seven shots. 4 of which were free kicks, two of which were from the six yard box (including his goal). He could hardly miss and it's all down to zonal marking again. He's proven that he knows how to score using his head, so we let him coast into the near post unmarked The fella supposed to be marking him on the penalty spot was Alonso, but he wasn't allowed to move out of his little zone so Ronaldo is able to walk in and score. What Reina was doing I don't know. Same goes for the Everton game, their only attack (other than Arteta's shot) was a free header for Osman from a set peice. How Osman wins a header in that box again is beyond me, esepcially when the nearest red shirt to him was Skrtel. Skrtel 6 foot plus, Osman 5 foot and a half properly, seems a mismatch to me. But then again Osman was attacking the ball while Skrtel was marking a zone. It's more than a coincidence that we've looked shaky at set peices all season. It's going back to Benitez' first year, where zonal marking was a waste of time. Everton mark touch tight, our goal came from Yobo clearing the corner just for Yakubu to it up and then another set peice Gerrard swings in right underneath the keeper, Lucas is ready to head home but Carsley is able to clear it because he's touch tight to Lucas. I don't care what stats say, the truth is zonal marking doesn't work. Another example was from the Everton game, they had four fellas all waiting for a free kick on the edge of the box, the ball comes in Lescott wins the header and they appeal for a penalty from a hand ball by Hyypia. When the ball is in our box, we don't win a thing. Skrtel and Hyypia were brilliant against Everton dealing with the long pump up to Yakubu, but as soon as the ball comes into our box from a set peice we're at sixes and sevens.

There's 11 red shirts to 6 blue. Leaving 3 blue shirts unmarked on the edge of the box and another two just to mop up should we for once win the first header and clear it so it's just coming back at us straight away. Take the derby game at Goodison. Their set peice, they won the ball, we manage to clear it and Everton are just going to mop it up. It's only through a stupid mistake (I think it was Carsley) letting the ball bounce that Gerrard stormed forward and won us a penalty for which Hibbert was sent off. But again, we don't win the first header and we don't get out quickly enough. If Carsley had controlled that ball, Gerrard would be on the edge of the box trying to soak up the pressure rather than being in his face, a miscontrol Gerrard is there. Gerrard should be in his face as soon as the ball is cleared (if it is cleared that is) and force him to miscontrol rather than just wait and hope.

god_bless_john_houlding wrote:well who cares, we all know zonal marking doesn't work. doesn't now and never will.