Liverpool FC Forum

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Tue Apr 01, 2008 12:34 am

who's arguing otherwise though? I've said that it makes a difference, I've said it helps but I won't accept that it's the reason we're not challenging.

In your own words anyone who thinks it is the reason we're not competeing is "a complete and utter numpty"

by **Kharhaz** » Tue Apr 01, 2008 12:35 am

Inferior to Arsenal? based on what? recent performances or head to head matches?

We are far behind utd, no one can argue with that but id say were on a level with arsenal. Lfc had a bad run early in the season and arsenal are having theres now. Yes they beat bolton, but lets face facts, bolton were poor. They went 2 up and threw it away. The let down for us is that we have only one striker in the team, should we get a second in the transfer window then we will be ahead of arsenal.

by **LFC2007** » Tue Apr 01, 2008 12:43 am

No, it's a key reason that determines the level of success a club has, especially in the Premier League and top level European leagues where top class is at its most distinct.

No-one, not a soul on this forum is using a lack of transfer funds as the sole reason for our lack of success in the league - not even Lando.

There are numerous reasons for our lack of success in the league, but the inability to spend on the same level as the Manc's and Chelsea relative to their respective levels upon Rafa's arrival, is a key reason. Not the reason (excuse - as you prefer to call it), by which you imply 'sole', but a very significant reason.

by **Fo Dne** » Tue Apr 01, 2008 12:52 am

I really can't be bothered going into it properly but this is yet another excuse made by the masses of "in rafa we trusters".

He's had more than enough to build an excellent squad.

What people find annoying is when he goes and spends £2,000,000 on Palletta, 1,800,000 on Leto and 9,000,000 on Kuyt when taking their wages into account aswell you could probably have Anelka for that.

Also when players like Crouch are signed when there are better options for around the same fee, also Skrtel and others.

Money doesn't make a signing good or bad. Being successfull does. Torres cost a bomb, was worth every penny, Reina was signed for a good amount and is worth that and more. No-one remembers or talks about a fee unless its money wasted. Rafa's wasted far to much, much like Houllier in his later years.

He's not signing enough players of the right quality. We'd rather he spent £30,000,000 on two great players who will improve the team than £6,000,000 on youth players who will (might (but never do) make it), then the remaining then the remaining 24,000,000 on players the same quality as Bellamy and Sissoko etc.

Also, this summer, we had Sissoko, Mascherano, Alonso and Gerrard as centre midfielders, why the balls go out and sign Lucas Leivia for £5,700,000 as good as he may be, lets asume he's as good as Alonso or Mascherano (he's not, but lets say he is) Whats the point in that when we're crying out for other players? Signing a player to effectively be fourth choice. I actually think Lucas is a better player than Sissoko... but Sissoko is a very decent fourth choice, why tamper with it?

My points simple, he's got to deal with the weaker area's first, he hasn't done it. Its cost us another crack at the title. We've now lost Riise and Finnan due to form and age aswell and Hyypia is finally past his dominant best so there is more positions we need to improve on next season.

Wouldn't suprise me in the slightest if Benitez went and signed a goalkeeper and two more centre mids this summer though. Really wouldn't.

by **hello_red** » Tue Apr 01, 2008 12:59 am

scientist wrote:What does money guarantee in football? There are arguements and counter arguments galore but the plain fact is that we have bought poorly. Rafa has 'spent' the funds he has on a lot of poor players. Giving Rafa £100 million would be absurd and would certainly not bring us closer in my view. His tactics are failing miserably and he has an inability to motivate players for the premiership coupled with his obsession for rotation and Europe.

The major factor that clearly makes him a strong contender to keep his job is his European record. A defeat to Arsenal could end all optimism that is surrounding us at the moment. That UTD performance and defeat demonstrated that we are a million miles away from them. They beat us in second gear and would have won regardless of the idiot Mascherano.

We have not beaten teams like Wigan, Birmingham, Luton, Man City, Reading, West Ham, Villa this season and that to me is the major concern. A lot of fans are reeling out the argument that if a few of our draws were wins we would be closer? If we were good enough those draws would be wins, no ifs, no buts.

Do we play good football now? That is what I would like to hear some views on. Why is it that we are so technically inferior to UTD and ARSENAL?

The only 3 times Rafa has been able to by players worth more than 10 mill are Alonso, Mascherano and Torres he has bought very wisely.

The reason he has bought so much dross is because when he came here he had a squad of :censored:

. Now bar a couple of players only imo we are close to having a squad capable of winning the prem league and having euro success.

I dont like to compare ourselves to other clubs as i couldnt give a :censored:

about them but if we take a quick look at Mourinhos first season he bought Robert Huth, Kezman, Del Horno, Maniche where are they now?

The grass is always greener on the other side. Rafa has bought bad players sometimes but they have always done a job and then they have left quite sharpish.

We are close.

by **Kharhaz** » Tue Apr 01, 2008 1:08 am

What people find annoying is when he goes and spends £2,000,000 on Palletta, 1,800,000 on Leto and 9,000,000 on Kuyt when taking their wages into account aswell you could probably have Anelka for that.

No what I find annoying is the people who say "Anelka slipped through our net", "We could have got Anelka for X amount"

Anelka was on loan at our club, we had a good look at him, and he never scored. Unless im wrong, his record in his time at lfc was only marginally better than kuyts. He never scored the goals that his potential promised, if kuyt is poor by the standards of this season, then what was anelkas in the one season he was with us? Even now, hes is getting the wages he wants, he is playing for a top team but one word you cannot associate with anelka is prolific.

by **Fo Dne** » Tue Apr 01, 2008 1:11 am

hello_red wrote:
scientist wrote:What does money guarantee in football? There are arguements and counter arguments galore but the plain fact is that we have bought poorly. Rafa has 'spent' the funds he has on a lot of poor players. Giving Rafa £100 million would be absurd and would certainly not bring us closer in my view. His tactics are failing miserably and he has an inability to motivate players for the premiership coupled with his obsession for rotation and Europe.

The major factor that clearly makes him a strong contender to keep his job is his European record. A defeat to Arsenal could end all optimism that is surrounding us at the moment. That UTD performance and defeat demonstrated that we are a million miles away from them. They beat us in second gear and would have won regardless of the idiot Mascherano.

We have not beaten teams like Wigan, Birmingham, Luton, Man City, Reading, West Ham, Villa this season and that to me is the major concern. A lot of fans are reeling out the argument that if a few of our draws were wins we would be closer? If we were good enough those draws would be wins, no ifs, no buts.

Do we play good football now? That is what I would like to hear some views on. Why is it that we are so technically inferior to UTD and ARSENAL?

The only 3 times Rafa has been able to by players worth more than 10 mill are Alonso, Mascherano and Torres he has bought very wisely.

The reason he has bought so much dross is because when he came here he had a squad of . Now bar a couple of players only imo we are close to having a squad capable of winning the prem league and having euro success.

I dont like to compare ourselves to other clubs as i couldnt give a about them but if we take a quick look at Mourinhos first season he bought Robert Huth, Kezman, Del Horno, Maniche where are they now?

The grass is always greener on the other side. Rafa has bought bad players sometimes but they have always done a job and then they have left quite sharpish.

We are close.

Why are those the only three time he's been able to spend that kind of money?

Had he not wasted it on Kuyt, leto, Insua, Hobbs, Gonzalez and a hole lot of other names he'd have had the money to spend it on other top players so don't come with that :censored:

.

How many of Rafa's "youth talents" have looked like making it?

The only one who looks to a decent Standard is Paul Anderson, the rest look :censored:

, to be quite blunt.

by **Fo Dne** » Tue Apr 01, 2008 1:15 am

Kharhaz wrote:
What people find annoying is when he goes and spends £2,000,000 on Palletta, 1,800,000 on Leto and 9,000,000 on Kuyt when taking their wages into account aswell you could probably have Anelka for that.

No what I find annoying is the people who say "Anelka slipped through our net", "We could have got Anelka for X amount"

Anelka was on loan at our club, we had a good look at him, and he never scored. Unless im wrong, his record in his time at lfc was only marginally better than kuyts. He never scored the goals that his potential promised, if kuyt is poor by the standards of this season, then what was anelkas in the one season he was with us? Even now, hes is getting the wages he wants, he is playing for a top team but one word you cannot associate with anelka is prolific.

He's scored goals at City, he's scored goals at Bolton and at Arsenal and for France, not only that he shown class and quality the likes of Kuyt, Voronin and Crouch can only dream of. The lads a class player, regardless of goals, he's the quality I want in a Liverpool shirt, look at Rooney, never prolific but easily one of the best players and forwards in the world, he makes United tick.

Do not sit there and say to me Anelka wouldn't be better to have than Kuyt, Leto and Insua and Palletta because you're talking out your :censored:

.

by **LFC2007** » Tue Apr 01, 2008 1:17 am

Well we've Torres now, a player far better than Anelka.

by **Kharhaz** » Tue Apr 01, 2008 1:21 am

Fo Dne wrote:
Kharhaz wrote:
What people find annoying is when he goes and spends £2,000,000 on Palletta, 1,800,000 on Leto and 9,000,000 on Kuyt when taking their wages into account aswell you could probably have Anelka for that.

No what I find annoying is the people who say "Anelka slipped through our net", "We could have got Anelka for X amount"

Anelka was on loan at our club, we had a good look at him, and he never scored. Unless im wrong, his record in his time at lfc was only marginally better than kuyts. He never scored the goals that his potential promised, if kuyt is poor by the standards of this season, then what was anelkas in the one season he was with us? Even now, hes is getting the wages he wants, he is playing for a top team but one word you cannot associate with anelka is prolific.

He's scored goals at City, he's scored goals at Bolton and at Arsenal and for France, not only that he shown class and quality the likes of Kuyt, Voronin and Crouch can only dream of. The lads a class player, regardless of goals, he's the quality I want in a Liverpool shirt, look at Rooney, never prolific but easily one of the best players and forwards in the world, he makes United tick.

Do not sit there and say to me Anelka wouldn't be better to have than Kuyt, Leto and Insua and Palletta because you're talking out your .

Without a doubt hes better than the players you have mentioned but so many people are regretting not signing him, I for one am not. Once he left Real Madrid, no big club touched him except for liverpool, and as a class striker he disappointed. I think there are better players than anelka who we can sign on a budget price. When chelsea signed him how many people said "ridiculous price for him". I know I was one.

by **Fo Dne** » Tue Apr 01, 2008 1:22 am

LFC2007 wrote:Well we've Torres now, a player far better than Anelka.

Yes and we've also got Crouch, Voronin, Kuyt and Babel. Players not fit to lace Anelka's boots.

Torres is amazing, he's absoloutely world class and one of the best in the world... but he can't make up for other players not being good enough.

by **LFC2007** » Tue Apr 01, 2008 1:26 am

Well, I don't rate Anelka as highly as yourself, but he's better than the players you mention.

In Torres he's signed a player who could go on to be a legend at the club, and to some extent he's made up for the inadequate signings of Morientes, Kuyt and Voronin.

by **Fo Dne** » Tue Apr 01, 2008 1:28 am

Kharhaz wrote:
Fo Dne wrote:
Kharhaz wrote:
What people find annoying is when he goes and spends £2,000,000 on Palletta, 1,800,000 on Leto and 9,000,000 on Kuyt when taking their wages into account aswell you could probably have Anelka for that.

No what I find annoying is the people who say "Anelka slipped through our net", "We could have got Anelka for X amount"

Anelka was on loan at our club, we had a good look at him, and he never scored. Unless im wrong, his record in his time at lfc was only marginally better than kuyts. He never scored the goals that his potential promised, if kuyt is poor by the standards of this season, then what was anelkas in the one season he was with us? Even now, hes is getting the wages he wants, he is playing for a top team but one word you cannot associate with anelka is prolific.

He's scored goals at City, he's scored goals at Bolton and at Arsenal and for France, not only that he shown class and quality the likes of Kuyt, Voronin and Crouch can only dream of. The lads a class player, regardless of goals, he's the quality I want in a Liverpool shirt, look at Rooney, never prolific but easily one of the best players and forwards in the world, he makes United tick.

Do not sit there and say to me Anelka wouldn't be better to have than Kuyt, Leto and Insua and Palletta because you're talking out your .

Without a doubt hes better than the players you have mentioned but so many people are regretting not signing him, I for one am not. Once he left Real Madrid, no big club touched him except for liverpool, and as a class striker he disappointed. I think there are better players than anelka who we can sign on a budget price. When chelsea signed him how many people said "ridiculous price for him". I know I was one.

The only reason he's a risk is his temperament which hasn't surfaced for a long time. He's effectively a fifteen million pound player... but like I've said, if we payed fifty and he came here and set the world alight with Torres no-one would talk about the fee.

Anyway, I was using him as an example. The fact is he's wasted money when it could have been spent alot better. I'd much rather sign a Torres and Voronin than a Babel and a Kuyt.

by **Fo Dne** » Tue Apr 01, 2008 1:33 am

LFC2007 wrote:Well, I don't rate Anelka as highly as yourself, but he's better than the players you mention.

In Torres he's signed a player who could go on to be a legend at the club, and to some extent he's made up for the inadequate signings of Morientes, Kuyt and Voronin.

Anelka's a great player.

Torres is unbelievable. With hindsight he'd be the player i'd go for every time, even ahead of Tevez who I also think is brilliant. A Legend? Definately.

I personally don't think he makes up for other bad signings though.

I also don't believe Morientes was that bad. He was a reasonable priced gamble who turned out to be a wimp so was shipped out after being given the chance to show his ability, which is very very good. Just mentally to old to adapt to a new challenge and was well into the comfort zone in his career.

I'd never throw that back at Benitez, even if at the time I didn't fancy Morientes.

by **bigmick** » Tue Apr 01, 2008 1:39 am

It's really a philosophical question I think. If we're being honest, there are very few if any players available in the 5-6million bracket (certainly in this country anyway) who could walk into our first team and improve it. Stu mentioned Dave Kitson who isn't a bad shout as a good player (although whether he would walk into the first team is another matter), Nicky Shorey is another from there who'll go onto bigger and better things, but there aint that many around particularly if you flatly refuse to consider going down a division or two which Rafa, like most foreign managers does. You might pick up the odd bargain from abroad at that price, but not over here very often.

Put simply if you want good players who will instantly improve the team you've by and large got to pay for them. Occasionally blokes come along like that Zoltan Gera who was at West Brom (is he still there?) who look like they would make the step up, but these days very few teams will take a punt.

So what is the philosophical side of it? Well why for instance buy Benayoun when you've already got Pennant? Because he can also sometimes play down the left, as an inside forward sometimes, he gives "options" and "possibilities'. Far more sensible IMHO to get rid of both in the Summer and get some proper quality in. If this Anderson kid is as good as people say, he can provide cover and we've also got a World class right midfielder in the ranks who'll play there if it comes down to it. Same with the strikers, if this kid Nemeth is really a good prospect, offload Voronin (obviously) and Crouch/Kuyt and bring in a player of proper quality who can play up top either with Torres or on his own. Even if we are going to play 4-5-1 next season, we need a front player/attacking midfielder of the absolute highest quality as feck knows what would happen if either Torres or Gerrard got injured.

Put simply the mantra should be quality not quantity. Trim down the "options" and "possibilities" and put what you save on fees and wages into the first team.

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