Liverpool FC Forum

[LFC2007]

I agree on Morientes, but my point was - to a certain extent the signing of Torres makes up for the inadequate signings we've made in the past. It's the first time in years that we've managed to find a solution to a real problem area under Rafa. Unlike Houllier, Rafa didn't have the luxury of having Owen, because he wanted to leave, and Fowler at their best. Fowler was a decent signing but still far from his best when he re-signed for us.

[Emerald Red]

What does money guarantee in football? There are arguements and counter arguments galore but the plain fact is that we have bought poorly. Rafa has 'spent' the funds he has on a lot of poor players. Giving Rafa £100 million would be absurd and would certainly not bring us closer in my view. His tactics are failing miserably and he has an inability to motivate players for the premiership coupled with his obsession for rotation and Europe.

The major factor that clearly makes him a strong contender to keep his job is his European record. A defeat to Arsenal could end all optimism that is surrounding us at the moment. That UTD performance and defeat demonstrated that we are a million miles away from them. They beat us in second gear and would have won regardless of the idiot Mascherano.

We have not beaten teams like Wigan, Birmingham, Luton, Man City, Reading, West Ham, Villa this season and that to me is the major concern. A lot of fans are reeling out the argument that if a few of our draws were wins we would be closer? If we were good enough those draws would be wins, no ifs, no buts.

Do we play good football now? That is what I would like to hear some views on. Why is it that we are so technically inferior to UTD and ARSENAL?

The only 3 times Rafa has been able to by players worth more than 10 mill are Alonso, Mascherano and Torres he has bought very wisely.

The reason he has bought so much dross is because when he came here he had a squad of . Now bar a couple of players only imo we are close to having a squad capable of winning the prem league and having euro success.

I dont like to compare ourselves to other clubs as i couldnt give a about them but if we take a quick look at Mourinhos first season he bought Robert Huth, Kezman, Del Horno, Maniche where are they now?

The grass is always greener on the other side. Rafa has bought bad players sometimes but they have always done a job and then they have left quite sharpish.

We are close.

Good post, red. And very valid indeed. I noticed how the detractors dodged this one.

[Fo Dne]

It's really a philosophical question I think. If we're being honest, there are very few if any players available in the 5-6million bracket (certainly in this country anyway) who could walk into our first team and improve it. Stu mentioned Dave Kitson who isn't a bad shout as a good player (although whether he would walk into the first team is another matter), Nicky Shorey is another from there who'll go onto bigger and better things, but there aint that many around particularly if you flatly refuse to consider going down a division or two which Rafa, like most foreign managers does. You might pick up the odd bargain from abroad at that price, but not over here very often.

Put simply if you want good players who will instantly improve the team you've by and large got to pay for them. Occasionally blokes come along like that Zoltan Gera who was at West Brom (is he still there?) who look like they would make the step up, but these days very few teams will take a punt.

So what is the philosophical side of it? Well why for instance buy Benayoun when you've already got Pennant? Because he can also sometimes play down the left, as an inside forward sometimes, he gives "options" and "possibilities'. Far more sensible IMHO to get rid of both in the Summer and get some proper quality in. If this Anderson kid is as good as people say, he can provide cover and we've also got a World class right midfielder in the ranks who'll play there if it comes down to it. Same with the strikers, if this kid Nemeth is really a good prospect, offload Voronin (obviously) and Crouch/Kuyt and bring in a player of proper quality who can play up top either with Torres or on his own. Even if we are going to play 4-5-1 next season, we need a front player/attacking midfielder of the absolute highest quality as feck knows what would happen if either Torres or Gerrard got injured.

Put simply the mantra should be quality not quantity. Trim down the "options" and "possibilities" and put what you save on fees and wages into the first team.

Gera's a good solid player, nothing more. Kitson could do it at any level, obviously he'd have to learn extra tactical discipline's but he's an excellent forward with alot of good attributes, he drops deep well and links play well aswell as being good with his back to goal, he's a similar level of player to Ashton but different, he's more mobile while still having a good (not as good as Ashton) physical presence, I also think he'd be more suited to playing along side Torres, he can also link well with midfiielders which would help get alot out of Gerrard.

There aren't really alot of players out there, to be honest, I'd want better than Kitson and Ashton but if they were brought in to replace Kuyt, Voronin and Crouch it would be a massive improvement.

[Fo Dne]

I agree on Morientes, but my point was - to a certain extent the signing of Torres makes up for the inadequate signings we've made in the past. It's the first time in years that we've managed to find a solution to a real problem area under Rafa. Unlike Houllier, Rafa didn't have the luxury of having Owen, because he wanted to leave, and Fowler at their best. Fowler was a decent signing but still far from his best when he re-signed for us.

When Robbie re-signed for us he was again our best striker and was a hell of a lot better than Kuyt and Voronin and Crouch.

When he played, we looked more likely to score as a team, when he didn't we looked more blunt.

[Fo Dne]

What does money guarantee in football? There are arguements and counter arguments galore but the plain fact is that we have bought poorly. Rafa has 'spent' the funds he has on a lot of poor players. Giving Rafa £100 million would be absurd and would certainly not bring us closer in my view. His tactics are failing miserably and he has an inability to motivate players for the premiership coupled with his obsession for rotation and Europe.

The major factor that clearly makes him a strong contender to keep his job is his European record. A defeat to Arsenal could end all optimism that is surrounding us at the moment. That UTD performance and defeat demonstrated that we are a million miles away from them. They beat us in second gear and would have won regardless of the idiot Mascherano.

We have not beaten teams like Wigan, Birmingham, Luton, Man City, Reading, West Ham, Villa this season and that to me is the major concern. A lot of fans are reeling out the argument that if a few of our draws were wins we would be closer? If we were good enough those draws would be wins, no ifs, no buts.

Do we play good football now? That is what I would like to hear some views on. Why is it that we are so technically inferior to UTD and ARSENAL?

The only 3 times Rafa has been able to by players worth more than 10 mill are Alonso, Mascherano and Torres he has bought very wisely.

The reason he has bought so much dross is because when he came here he had a squad of . Now bar a couple of players only imo we are close to having a squad capable of winning the prem league and having euro success.

I dont like to compare ourselves to other clubs as i couldnt give a about them but if we take a quick look at Mourinhos first season he bought Robert Huth, Kezman, Del Horno, Maniche where are they now?

The grass is always greener on the other side. Rafa has bought bad players sometimes but they have always done a job and then they have left quite sharpish.

We are close.

Good post, red. And very valid indeed. I noticed how the detractors dodged this one.

It wasn't dodged at all, it was answered and brushed aside as .

[LFC2007]

Ryan Taylor? 

[bigmick]

I have to say as well on the question of Anelka, I thought it was amazing that Chelsea were able to sign him practically without any opposition. He was obviously going to go on the bench once Drogba came back until and unless Drogba fecks off, and I think he would have bitten our hands off if we'd gone in for him. He is proven top quality if he can get his head right, and the thought of him and Torres up front with Gerrard bombing on in behind them might just have done the trick as far as that is concerned. Fifteen million or whatever it was would have been a fair wedge, but I would have thought you could have got back at least half of that by selling Crouch in the Summer.

If indeed Drogba does feck off I reckon Anelka will look cheap by this stage next season. Him, and players like him are what we need. Players who can hurt the top teams, playing together regularly. Do you need four strikers if you've got two absolutely top class ones, with kids/Kuyt to cover and you've got the option of playing 4-5-1 anyway? Not in my opinion no.

[Fo Dne]

Ryan Taylor? 

What about him? Watch the lad play.

You're only as good as the players you're providing for and the players who give it back to you, or don't in many cases.

Unfortunately for Taylor he's not got the chance to prove what a good player he is because Bruce is a fool.

You can always spot a player by how much time they have on the ball and whether they pick a pass. Taylor, like Bullard, Ashton, Sidwell, Kitson and load of others do.

[LFC2007]

They're good players, and improvements on some of the players we have in our squad, but they're not top class - which is what we need.

[The_Rock]

One more point I'd like to make, everyone is saying about Chelsea this and Chelsea that, well unless I watch a different Liverpool side to rest of you, I saw Liverpool dominante 180 minutes against Chelsea this year in the league.

Thats because of average gant...... If mourinho was still at chelsea...they would have won the league cup and be leading the premier league now.....

Yeah money is not the only stuff....but it does help a club if they have a sh1t load of it....

its a combination ...good manager  + good players + $$$ = you are the champ.

[maguskwt]

No, it's a key reason that determines the level of success a club has, especially in the Premier League and top level European leagues where top class is at its most distinct.

No-one, not a soul on this forum is using a lack of transfer funds as the sole reason for our lack of success in the league - not even Lando.

There are numerous reasons for our lack of success in the league, but the inability to spend on the same level as the Manc's and Chelsea relative to their respective levels upon Rafa's arrival, is a key reason. Not the reason (excuse - as you prefer to call it), by which you imply 'sole', but a very significant reason.

precisely...

money is not a good excuse is therefore wrong... because money is a good reason...

money makes the world go round...

[bigmick]

Money is a valid reason for not winning the Premiership, that's why Reading will never win it. That said, barring the Arabs taking over and going stupid, the money situation isn't going to change anytime in the near future so does this mean we are going to have to accept the fact that we will never ever challenge for the title again?

I think we've now proven that given our resources, it is impossible to build two teams at the same time which can compete with the bigger spenders. Perhaps it's time to build just the one team and concentrate our money and efforts on that. It's got to be worth a go lets be honest.

[ConnO'var]

He's had more than enough to build an excellent squad.

What people find annoying is when he goes and spends £2,000,000 on Palletta, 1,800,000 on Leto and 9,000,000 on Kuyt when taking their wages into account aswell you could probably have Anelka for that.

Also when players like Crouch are signed when there are better options for around the same fee, also Skrtel and others.

Money doesn't make a signing good or bad. Being successfull does. Torres cost a bomb, was worth every penny, Reina was signed for a good amount and is worth that and more. No-one remembers or talks about a fee unless its money wasted. Rafa's wasted far to much, much like Houllier in his later years.

He's not signing enough players of the right quality. We'd rather he spent £30,000,000 on two great players who will improve the team than £6,000,000 on youth players who will (might (but never do) make it), then the remaining then the remaining 24,000,000 on players the same quality as Bellamy and Sissoko etc.

Also, this summer, we had Sissoko, Mascherano, Alonso and  Gerrard as centre midfielders, why the balls go out and sign Lucas Leivia for £5,700,000 as good as he  may be, lets asume he's as good  as Alonso or  Mascherano (he's not, but lets say he  is) Whats the point in that when we're crying out for other players? Signing a player to effectively be fourth choice.  I actually think Lucas is  a better player than Sissoko... but Sissoko is a very decent fourth choice, why tamper with it?

My points simple,  he's got to deal with the weaker area's first, he hasn't done it. Its cost us another crack at the title. We've now lost Riise and Finnan due to form and age aswell and Hyypia is finally past his dominant best so there is more positions we need to improve on next season.

Agreed....

Good post.

150 million pounds
= 10 x 15 million pound players
= 7 x 20 million pound players + 1 x 10 million pound players

I'm not suggesting that we buy 7 players with all that money of course as I don't think that we needed 7 top class players back then. But 5 twenty million pound players into the 1st team would have done us a world of good. And 50 million quid on a host of youngsters and back up players would have been adequate I would have thought.

All hindsight of course but 150 million could have done us a world of good.....

Kudos to Rafa for re-couping half of that..... but it doesn't detract from the fact that he could have done better with the 150 million quid he did spend.

[maguskwt]

Money is a valid reason for not winning the Premiership, that's why Reading will never win it. That said, barring the Arabs taking over and going stupid, the money situation isn't going to change anytime in the near future so does this mean we are going to have to accept the fact that we will never ever challenge for the title again?

I think we've now proven that given our resources, it is impossible to build two teams at the same time which can compete with the bigger spenders. Perhaps it's time to build just the one team and concentrate our money and efforts on that. It's got to be worth a go lets be honest.

well big mick i think that this is where a manager has to make a decision and this is where the fine line is... if you build one team, you're taking alot of risks especially if you're in multiple competitions... an injury to one or two key players and you will pay the price dearly...and in modern day football injuries will happen... the nightmare of not even finishing 4th will then become a real possibility... building a squad with more options and possibilities like rafa is doing now gives you more insurance... it might make the probability of winning the league less... but it also prevents the team from suffering a total failure... and for a club like Liverpool not qualifying for the champion's league is an absolute disaster... this is surely the predicament that rafa is facing right now... Liverpool with so much tradition and pedigree demands for competing for the title with the rest of the elite... at the same time we are not up there with the mancs and the chelseas in terms of financial muscle and therefore cannot afford to miss out on the champions league...

[maguskwt]

Agreed....

Good post.

150 million pounds
= 10 x 15 million pound players
= 7 x 20 million pound players + 1 x 10 million pound players

I'm not suggesting that we buy 7 players with all that money of course as I don't think that we needed 7 top class players back then. But 5 twenty million pound players into the 1st team would have done us a world of good. And 50 million quid on a host of youngsters and back up players would have been adequate I would have thought.

All hindsight of course but 150 million could have done us a world of good.....

Kudos to Rafa for re-couping half of that..... but it doesn't detract from the fact that he could have done better with the 150 million quid he did spend.

what I don't like about this kind of criticism is that reality is not as simple as that... which you also admit by saying it's all hindsight Conn...

in reality you don't get 60 million to spend in one pre-season at liverpool...
in reality you're not assured of getting 3 players each worth 20 million AND everyone of them to be a guaranteed success..
in reality... you have to look at the coming season and ensure that your team is competitive and at least reach the champion's league spot...

so what do you do? you MINIMIZE the risk... and that's exactly what rafa is doing...

well of course if you have the eyes of the stu, then things will be different... you will be able to snatch up all the guaranteed successes before they cost too much.

I'm afraid this is a prime example of how armchair criticism is easy and real life situation is not that simple...

of course I'm not saying rafa is perfect in the transfer market. but no manager is... but he's doing pretty well considering the budget that's available to him... with the amount of money we spend we won the champions league, the fa cup and went to another champions league final and guaranteed a champions league spot every season... which other team who spent as much as us can do that?

modern day football with its business oriented nature is not just reliant on the league anymore as much as we like to win the league the most... and the more people realise that the better...