Liverpool FC Forum

by **maypaxvobiscum** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 9:42 pm

Bad Bob wrote:
god_bless_john_houlding wrote:so bob you're under the impression that you go 1-0 down in goals and players and you don't try and score you just soak up pressure and hope to nick one on the break?

OK let's just take that point..."on the break" what break do you have with Benayoun, Riise and Kuyt as the attacking three? Break...they'd be lucky to break sweat. The forward three should of been Gerrard, Babel and Torres that way you have a bit of pace to break on.

Babel didn't get a touch prior to the substitution and we couldn't keep the ball. He's also a liability defensively and, for all of his pace, he's fairly easy to neutralize if defenders can match his pace (like United's can) and if they show him onto his weak foot. The smart move was and is to bring Benayoun on. He's good in possession, can track back and can bring teammates into play effectively. It was the right substitution without question.

you know GBJH, you remind me of someone who would go into a war without any strategy and just run into the line of fire. you're expecting rafa's substitutions to show intent and attack all the time and be passionate bla bla bla. reading your posts is almost like reading some bush propaganda. but have you not heard that brains are better than brawn?

by **Judge** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 10:19 pm

maypaxvobiscum wrote:
Judge wrote:the system is predictable at best, which is why we dont get better results against the better teams above us at present.

i would like to see more of a mix, with invention and to feet swift passing. a settled team is a better one thru the whole season, which is why i hate rotation (cue big mick )

passion to get the ball back is also what i would like to see more of. a team cant score against you if they dont have the ball. our system fails there a little, imo

1) kuyt to distract the keeper thus making him come out of his box. as soon as it happens, pass the ball to alonso.

2) during corners, scare opponents by threatening to pull down their shorts if they jump.

thats 2 for you judge.

thought we did those already, but kuyt so cack he gets that wrong and scares his own team with that face

by **Judge** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 10:20 pm

god_bless_john_houlding wrote:
Pepe25 wrote:GBJH ------ I HAVEN'T A CLUE WHO DEAN HORSEFIELD IS !!!!!!!! Dont know who i was on about ........anyhow i agee KLOSE would be a really good signing

There is a GEOFF Horsefield.

I'd go for Klose (there may be better around) but from what I've seen of him in Europe or international level, he'd do OK.

its Horsfield

and he used to play for Guiseley some years back

i watched him play when guiseley got the the first round proper of the FA cup, only to lose 1 nil to chester

the game was played at macclesfield

my old school played for guiseley, which is why i went to it

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Tue Apr 01, 2008 12:23 am

Bad Bob wrote:
god_bless_john_houlding wrote:so bob you're under the impression that you go 1-0 down in goals and players and you don't try and score you just soak up pressure and hope to nick one on the break?

OK let's just take that point..."on the break" what break do you have with Benayoun, Riise and Kuyt as the attacking three? Break...they'd be lucky to break sweat. The forward three should of been Gerrard, Babel and Torres that way you have a bit of pace to break on.

Babel didn't get a touch prior to the substitution and we couldn't keep the ball. He's also a liability defensively and, for all of his pace, he's fairly easy to neutralize if defenders can match his pace (like United's can) and if they show him onto his weak foot. The smart move was and is to bring Benayoun on. He's good in possession, can track back and can bring teammates into play effectively. It was the right substitution without question.

bob you want us to break, there's no point breaking with Benayoun, Kuyt and Riise. They have no pace between them and wouldn't of scored if they played for a million years against United.

I don't care if Babel doesn't touch the ball for 89 minutes and 59 seconds, but if for the one second he does touch it, it goes in, I'd idolise him. But if he didn't touch the ball, why did he turn Wes Brown inside out on a few occasions, he had a chance which he should of banged in and also when you're getting beat what's the point in defending even more. I'd rather see us get beat 100-0 but at least look like we're trying to get into the game, than get beat 1-0 and be happy because it's not an embarrasing scoreline. It's the same result either way....A DEFEAT. But if Benayoun is going to come on then take Alonso or a defender off. At least look as if you're going to try and get back into the game. We've proven over the years that when we attack sides we look more threatening.

And what about Riise for Torres...I suppose Riise offers more of a threat? Kuyt offers more of a threat up front than Babel/Torres/Crouch? Lets face facts shall we, Benitez brought on Benayoun and Riise not to try and get into the game but to try and keep it at 1-0 which backfired because we still got stuffed and United were in cruise control for 40 minutes of the second half. The five minutes we did look dangerous, Babel and Torres were on the pitch.

by **Fo Dne** » Tue Apr 01, 2008 12:29 am

Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace....

Its all about pace. Nothing matters except pace. Pace means everything...

Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace, Pace.

THE MOST IMPORTANT THINGS IN FOOTBALL ARE PASSING, TOUCH AND MOVEMENT in order.

END OF

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Tue Apr 01, 2008 12:31 am

passing with Kuyt

touch with Kuyt

movement with Riise

by **Bad Bob** » Tue Apr 01, 2008 12:52 am

god_bless_john_houlding wrote:
Bad Bob wrote:
god_bless_john_houlding wrote:so bob you're under the impression that you go 1-0 down in goals and players and you don't try and score you just soak up pressure and hope to nick one on the break?

OK let's just take that point..."on the break" what break do you have with Benayoun, Riise and Kuyt as the attacking three? Break...they'd be lucky to break sweat. The forward three should of been Gerrard, Babel and Torres that way you have a bit of pace to break on.

Babel didn't get a touch prior to the substitution and we couldn't keep the ball. He's also a liability defensively and, for all of his pace, he's fairly easy to neutralize if defenders can match his pace (like United's can) and if they show him onto his weak foot. The smart move was and is to bring Benayoun on. He's good in possession, can track back and can bring teammates into play effectively. It was the right substitution without question.

bob you want us to break, there's no point breaking with Benayoun, Kuyt and Riise. They have no pace between them and wouldn't of scored if they played for a million years against United.

I don't care if Babel doesn't touch the ball for 89 minutes and 59 seconds, but if for the one second he does touch it, it goes in, I'd idolise him. But if he didn't touch the ball, why did he turn Wes Brown inside out on a few occasions, he had a chance which he should of banged in and also when you're getting beat what's the point in defending even more. I'd rather see us get beat 100-0 but at least look like we're trying to get into the game, than get beat 1-0 and be happy because it's not an embarrasing scoreline. It's the same result either way....A DEFEAT. But if Benayoun is going to come on then take Alonso or a defender off. At least look as if you're going to try and get back into the game. We've proven over the years that when we attack sides we look more threatening.

And what about Riise for Torres...I suppose Riise offers more of a threat? Kuyt offers more of a threat up front than Babel/Torres/Crouch? Lets face facts shall we, Benitez brought on Benayoun and Riise not to try and get into the game but to try and keep it at 1-0 which backfired because we still got stuffed and United were in cruise control for 40 minutes of the second half. The five minutes we did look dangerous, Babel and Torres were on the pitch.

Not going to bother arguing with you on this. It was the right call and you know it. BTW, I thought you were going to come on last Sunday night if Ronaldo scored against us and hold your hand up?

by **Fo Dne** » Tue Apr 01, 2008 12:56 am

god_bless_john_houlding wrote:passing with Kuyt
touch with Kuyt
movement with Riise

Anything from Babel?

by **LFC2007** » Tue Apr 01, 2008 12:57 am

by **ConnO'var** » Tue Apr 01, 2008 2:10 am

Fo Dne wrote:Its all about pace. Nothing matters except pace. Pace means everything...

THE MOST IMPORTANT THINGS IN FOOTBALL ARE PASSING, TOUCH AND MOVEMENT in order.

END OF

End of? No mate.....

Pace is not the be all and end all but in the modern game, it's an important aspect as well...

If passing, touch and movement are the most important things in football... we'd have molby, dalglish and rush still playing today.

The most important things in football is to score more goals than the opponent on the day.

END OF

by **Fo Dne** » Tue Apr 01, 2008 2:19 am

ConnO'var wrote:
Fo Dne wrote:Its all about pace. Nothing matters except pace. Pace means everything...

THE MOST IMPORTANT THINGS IN FOOTBALL ARE PASSING, TOUCH AND MOVEMENT in order.

END OF

End of? No mate.....

Pace is not the be all and end all but in the modern game, it's an important aspect as well...

If passing, touch and movement are the most important things in football... we'd have molby dalglish and rush still playing today.

The most important things in football is to score more goals than the opponent on the day.

END OF

Ok smart

, lets go with that, why don't we just sign Torres, Owen, Yakubu, Defoe, Keane and play 10 strikers and a goal keeper?

The fact is, and its no conincidence that the best teams can all pass a ball. The great Liverpool sides were all built on passing and moving, the best teams in the world all have 11 players who good passers of a football and know where to go at what time. The more possession you have, the harder you are to beat and the more pressure you can apply to oppenents. The reason Reading were so good last season is that although they didn't have alot of players with great ability, they had quite a few and alot of them were very comfortable with the ball at there feet and they could keep the ball.

Babel loses the ball to much in the opposition half, as does Kuyt, the more passes you complete in that half of the pitch the better, you're more likely to find an opening.

Speaking as a player, theres nothing more frustrating than playing with players who keep losing the ball under no pressure or players who just can't keep the ball full stop. It pisses good players off when others don't keep the ball, you can deal with players playing the wrong pass aslong as they don't give it away. A couple of times this season (all be it at a completely different standard) We've had a lad for our Saturday team play upfront, the other week, we had a better player on the bench, absoloutely everything going forward broke down with him because he can't control or pass a ball, second half, the better player comes on we end up winning the match 4-1 and it could have been eight or nine, we also miissed a penalty.

It makes a difference, a big difference.

by **bigmick** » Tue Apr 01, 2008 3:30 am

Fo Dne wrote:A couple of times this season (all be it at a completely different standard) We've had a lad for our Saturday team play upfront, the other week, we had a better player on the bench, absoloutely everything going forward broke down with him because he can't control or pass a ball, second half, the better player comes on we end up winning the match 4-1 and it could have been eight or nine, we also miissed a penalty.

It makes a difference, a big difference.

This "better player on the bench" wouldn't be you by any chance would it Stu

by **Effes** » Tue Apr 01, 2008 3:43 am

Bad Bob wrote:1) When you are down to 10 men you play 4-4-1. End of. You don't see how it goes for an hour and then try a different approach--you stick as many men behind the ball as you can and hope to nick one from a set piece. It's ridiculous to blame Rafa for not changing things up as the game unfolded under those circumstances.

Just out of curiosity; what did Wenger do when he was 2 nil down with 10 men at Bolton?
(Granted it was only Bolton, but still...)

by **ConnO'var** » Tue Apr 01, 2008 4:48 am

Fo Dne wrote:
ConnO'var wrote:
Fo Dne wrote:Its all about pace. Nothing matters except pace. Pace means everything...

THE MOST IMPORTANT THINGS IN FOOTBALL ARE PASSING, TOUCH AND MOVEMENT in order.

END OF

End of? No mate.....

Pace is not the be all and end all but in the modern game, it's an important aspect as well...

If passing, touch and movement are the most important things in football... we'd have molby, dalglish and rush still playing today.

The most important things in football is to score more goals than the opponent on the day.

END OF

Ok smart , lets go with that, why don't we just sign Torres, Owen, Yakubu, Defoe, Keane and play 10 strikers and a goal keeper?

The fact is, and its no conincidence that the best teams can all pass a ball. The great Liverpool sides were all built on passing and moving, the best teams in the world all have 11 players who good passers of a football and know where to go at what time. The more possession you have, the harder you are to beat and the more pressure you can apply to oppenents. The reason Reading were so good last season is that although they didn't have alot of players with great ability, they had quite a few and alot of them were very comfortable with the ball at there feet and they could keep the ball.

Babel loses the ball to much in the opposition half, as does Kuyt, the more passes you complete in that half of the pitch the better, you're more likely to find an opening.

Speaking as a player, theres nothing more frustrating than playing with players who keep losing the ball under no pressure or players who just can't keep the ball full stop. It pisses good players off when others don't keep the ball, you can deal with players playing the wrong pass aslong as they don't give it away. A couple of times this season (all be it at a completely different standard) We've had a lad for our Saturday team play upfront, the other week, we had a better player on the bench, absoloutely everything going forward broke down with him because he can't control or pass a ball, second half, the better player comes on we end up winning the match 4-1 and it could have been eight or nine, we also miissed a penalty.

It makes a difference, a big difference.

Mate,

I'm not disagreeing with you that the attributes you mentioned (paasing, touch and movement) are extremely important... of course they are. And I would add another one to the mix.... game intelligence.

But you seem to suggest/imply that pace is not important at all.... or maybe you were just trying to make a point. Pace is a very important attribute,imho, that you seem to be knocking at every opportunity. I'm sure you'd agree that Gerrard, Torres, C. Ronaldo etc can be safely classified as world class players. Imagine for a minute if you were to take away their pace and make them 2 or 3 paces slower than they currently are.... would they still be as effective and devastating as they are? I don't.... they'd still be very, very good players but no longer as effective and maybe even, no longer in the realm of "world class".

There are positions in a conventional line-up, that you need pace... wingers, fullbacks being the most obvious. Why? to counteract the attacking capabilities of the opposing teams who invariably have pace in abundance.... How are you going to neutralize pacy wingers if you don't have quick players to keep up with them and vise versa? Especially in England where the game is played at a frenetic pace..... In Italy and Spain, where the pace of the game is more measured and calculated, this aspect of a player's ability is not as important but is STILL an awesome weapon to have.

Blistering pace is not required... but quickness and acceleration over short distances is well needed IMHO. Look around at the pantheon of players in the top 3 teams plying their trade in the premiership at the moment.

Centre Back
Ferdinand
Terry
Vidic
Carvalho
Gallas
Toure

Fullbacks
Evra
Wes Brown
Belleti
A. Cole
Sagna
Clichy

Wingers
Ronaldo
Giggs
J. Cole
SW Phillips
Eboue
Hleb/Walcott

Center Forwards
Saha
Rooney
Drogba
Anelka
Adebayor
The guy who broke his leg... can't remember his name.

These guys are not exactly pedestrian are they? They may not all be blindingly quick but quick nonetheless. Yes, they have other attributes as well but one common denominator is pace. I'm probably missing a few but there are very few players in this position, playing for the top 3 teams, who can be specified as slow..

I agree with you in that PACE per se, is not the be all and end all..... but it IS important.

To imply or suggest otherwise is simplistic to the extreme, I feel.

by **bigmick** » Tue Apr 01, 2008 5:44 am

Pace is important course it is. It won't make a bad player a good player, but it will make a good player who makes the odd bad decision a better one, or a good player who is difficult to play against even more difficult. Take for example Kuyt and Torres. Now if you're marking Kuyt, provided you don't get wrong side and you keep your wits about you there's half a chance you'll come out of it unscathed. If you do get wrong side or he does get slipped in by a good pass, you've got half a chance of getting to him before he gets his shot away. Contrast that with Torres, where not only have you got to be right side but you can't even afford to get marginal. You can't really pick him up in the same way as you'd pick Kuyt up, as you've got to be really carfeul of someone slipping him in 'cos you'll never catch the fecker in a million years. If he gets turned and runs towards you you've pretty much got to commit to a tackle or a block, as if you show him the outside he has the gears to just burn you off, whereas Kuyt hasn't.

Now obviously there's a World of difference between the two players in many ways, pace is just one of the many differences. I'm not having a pop at Kuyt either, Torres is very quick and you could put any number of strikers names in where Kuyts is and it's be the same situation. Would Torres's pace make Kuyt a better player? absolutely. It wouldn't make him as good as Torres is now, but it'd improve him out of all recognition course it would. If you gave Torres Kuyt's gears would it change him as a player? Absolutely, you've only got to look at the way Owen has lost some of his potency and cutting edge now his searing pace is reduced to that of a mere mortal. Doesn't mean Owen can't score a goal anymore, but it does mean he has to attack differently. he has to score more goals these days from his cleverness, his gambles on hitting spaces. Crucially it means defenders can play him different now, no longer in fear of his burning acclearation they can get in much tighter than they ever did in his younger days.

It's not the be all and end all, but pace is important to any player. There's not many footballers who wouldn't like a yard or two more afterburn that's for sure.

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