Liverpool FC Forum

by **stmichael** » Mon Nov 05, 2007 3:18 pm

Bammo wrote:I only caught the MOTD2 highlights but Guthrie looked to be playing really well for Bolton. Does anyone know if he's been on form or was that game a one-off? He's the type of player that we could do with in future - attack minded and good at passing. Of course, that all depends on if he can consistently perform.

I always have the worry with our players going on loan that if they're any good they leave permanently.

He seems to have grown up a bit physically and it's excellent to see that he's now started in each of Bolton's last 5 or 6 games. He did OK yesterday. He's taking Bolton's setpieces and his delivery wasn't bad. He was desperately unlucky not to score with a cracking left foot shot from distance that hit the post.

I think chances are we're more likely to see him move on for a few million but he may have a future if we offload a couple of squad players in the summer. However it's more likely that he'll move on. If a player such as Stephen Warnock couldn't make the grade (albeit in a different position) I doubt whether Guthrie will, especially given our resources in central midfield.

by **JoeTerp** » Mon Nov 05, 2007 4:23 pm

stmichael wrote:
Bammo wrote:I only caught the MOTD2 highlights but Guthrie looked to be playing really well for Bolton. Does anyone know if he's been on form or was that game a one-off? He's the type of player that we could do with in future - attack minded and good at passing. Of course, that all depends on if he can consistently perform.

I always have the worry with our players going on loan that if they're any good they leave permanently.

He seems to have grown up a bit physically and it's excellent to see that he's now started in each of Bolton's last 5 or 6 games. He did OK yesterday. He's taking Bolton's setpieces and his delivery wasn't bad. He was desperately unlucky not to score with a cracking left foot shot from distance that hit the post.

I think chances are we're more likely to see him move on for a few million but he may have a future if we offload a couple of squad players in the summer. However it's more likely that he'll move on. If a player such as Stephen Warnock couldn't make the grade (albeit in a different position) I doubt whether Guthrie will, especially given our resources in central midfield.

After this season (maybe even in january), I think Momo will be seen as surplus to requirements and sold (I hope there are as many buyers as there were this summer). Lucas and Guthrie can compete for the 4th CM slot, and the "loser" can play in the domestic cup games. Guthrie might be the best footballer of the youth cup winning sides, but Anderson and Hammill might have the better chance of breaking through, Kewell is oldish and brittle, Babel isnt an out and out winger, no one is SOLD on Leto, and Anderson offers much more of a goal threat than Pennant. I would like to see Rafa try a 4-3-3 next year but play Pennant and Babel as the wide striking winger-forwards instead of Kuyt and Voronin

by **username** » Mon Nov 05, 2007 4:39 pm

Bammo wrote:I only caught the MOTD2 highlights but Guthrie looked to be playing really well for Bolton. Does anyone know if he's been on form or was that game a one-off? He's the type of player that we could do with in future - attack minded and good at passing. Of course, that all depends on if he can consistently perform.

I always have the worry with our players going on loan that if they're any good they leave permanently.

Bolton fans love him, they wanna buy him in jan, called him motm easiley yesterday.

by **Paul C** » Mon Nov 05, 2007 4:39 pm

The problem is that their is so much money at stake these days, even just 3 points can make a difference at the end of the season, I think that it would make more sense to have a second team in the lower divisions like Real Madrid do to play the youngsters, this would allow the development of young players.

I read that Rafa has signed 20 youth players in two and a half years, look at how many have come close to breaking into the first team in the league.......................... NONE!!!

Things need to change as having no quality players coming through the ranks since Gerrard in 1999 is p1ss poor :angry:

by **mungi** » Wed Nov 07, 2007 10:36 am

Paul C wrote:The problem is that their is so much money at stake these days, even just 3 points can make a difference at the end of the season, I think that it would make more sense to have a second team in the lower divisions like Real Madrid do to play the youngsters, this would allow the development of young players.

I read that Rafa has signed 20 youth players in two and a half years, look at how many have come close to breaking into the first team in the league.......................... NONE!!!

Things need to change as having no quality players coming through the ranks since Gerrard in 1999 is p1ss poor

but those players that are coming over r 16, 17 and 18 yr olds. u cant expect them to break into the first team. give them a couple years, then make a comment on them. many of them come from outside england as well, so it might take more time.

by **stmichael** » Fri Jan 18, 2008 3:35 pm

After all the recent events, to me this whole argument is yet another reason why getting rid of Rafa would have been complete nonsense.

He's invested in LOTS of youngsters, bringing in some of the premier talent in the world while they're still in their teens. This is the way some of the most successful teams in the world are run (think Barca, Arsenal). Get a lot of young, promising players in your academy while they're relatively cheap, and then mold them into a team. Of course, since younger players are difficult to predict on the development curve, many of them won't work out, but you've only spent a tiny fraction of what you would have to buy a 1st teamer if they do work out. It's medium-risk (in that many will fail, but it's not that expensive), high-reward activity. If you buy 10 of the best youngsters in the world for 250,000-500,000 each, and only 1 becomes world class (say, worth 15 million +) and two become decent squad players (say, worth 3 million) and the other 7 completely fail, you've still done very, very well.

The problem with this strategy, which I believe Rafa is pursuing, is that it takes lots of time. Worse, if you change managers in the middle of it, it could turn out to be a giant waste, as who knows if the next manager will have the same views or perceive the younger players as having potential. I know people are sitting around saying "Why are none of the youth team and reserves moving up to the squad then?" but you have to remember that Rafa's only had a few years and most of the players we're talking about are still in their late teens. I truly believe that Rafa is attempting to enact a sort of "Wengerisation" of Liverpool by bringing in these young players and molding them into the kind who can bring the League back to Liverpool, not just for an odd year now and again, but who can reestablish the kind of dynasty we saw here back in the 70's.

And, more to the point: there are really only two ways to get the truly world-class players required to win the League nowadays. One is to have an owner with bottomless pockets and spend millions and millions of pounds picking up the cream of the player crop from all over the world (see Man U, Chelsea). Obviously, we do not have that kind of owner. The other is to buy these players when they are still younger and thus more of a risk, but are substantially cheaper. I feel that Rafa is right to pursue the latter strategy, and I think that we must give him more time to see it pay off.

The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has limits.

by **Big Niall** » Fri Jan 18, 2008 3:50 pm

Anyone can buy a bunch of young players from around the world - it doesn't make a genius who needs to stay in the job until they mature. Only time will tell whether they are good buys or poor ones .

people were creaming theselves when we got Pongolle and Le tellec who had been stars at an underage international tournament, while Ferguson had apparantly wasted his money by spending a few more million on just one player - Ronaldo.

and there is little to suggest that Rafa is any better than another manager in bringing through such talent.
Rafa should be judged on results - nothing else.

by **JoeTerp** » Fri Jan 18, 2008 4:22 pm

to play devils advocate, it seems that we have quite a bit of flops in the bringing in of this young talent, Leto and El Zhar are already 21 now and I would class them as highly unlikely to make the breakthough into regular first team action, with Leto having a very slightly better chance. Fransico Duran, would hate to be critical of a young player for being hurt, but he is also competing for time in the holding role of central midfield, which doesn't look like it will have many openings for a while. Jordy Brouwer = absolute sh!te, just not good enough, worse than Kuyt, and he plays against reserve competition.

Ryan Crowther, brought in this summer, haven't seen much of him to be fair, but it might be telling of his ability that he can't beat out ray putterill for playing time in the reserves, I think he might have had a small injury spell

Huth and San Jose, seem to play well in the reserves, but it seems that Skrtel and Agger are going to be the long term future of the club, Hobbs is probably better than both of them, Carra will be at the club until he can't walk anymore, so these kids wouldn't see any time until they are 24 or 25, odds are we would have purchased a better more experienced CB by then anyway, and players are only going to put up with being on loan for so long.

Antwi has potential, we will have to see how he looks after picking up a season of league 1 experience, but again there is only a 4 year difference between him and Agger and Skrtel, and he would also have to compete against Hobbs, Huth, San Jose, Ayala, Big Joe Kennedy, and Miki Roque.

Besian Idrizaij started the season with a hat trick in 23 minutes, but can't get a game at palace, even in the face of our terrible strikeforce situation, his future is sadly increasingly dimming. (but I am not ready to blow out his candle quite yet)

Anderson still has promise, but from what the Swansea fans say, they love him, think he will be a very good championship player, maybe even a lower table prem type player, but lacks that something special to break into a world class team lineup. Maybe they are overrating what that means, I mean all he has to do is beat out Pennant FFS, so I think he has hope.

Guthrie, Hammill, and somewhat Darby and Lindfield each have hope.

Once we sell Carson, it will be a good bit of business

High hopes for Insua as well as Pacheco, Bruna, Amoo, Pourie, Ecceston, Ajdarevic, possibly Bouzanis.

I think that the Lucas and Babel policy is probably the best policy, although they are expensive, you already know they are on the brink of world class, and there is still a year or two to mold them in your way, and they are already good enough to earn time with the first team. Milan did this with a bigger name in Pato, and I watched his debut, he LOOKS THE BUSINESS.

It seems that we have trouble with the transition phase between reserve and first team, a lot of it having to do with the fact that we have so many 1st teamers, and loan experience isn't as good because you aren't being brought up in the rafa way, playing against lesser competition, and you aren't becoming familiar with your LFC teammates.

This is why I would like to see us sell off Riise, momo, Kuyt, Voronin, and focus on only buying one world class 23-28 year old, while buying only the best of the best of the 15-18 and have the Anderson, Hammill, Guthrie, Lindfield, Insua, Pacheco, Bruna, Hobbs of the team be the players to fill out the depth of the squad

by **stmichael** » Fri Jan 18, 2008 4:31 pm

JoeTerp wrote:to play devils advocate, it seems that we have quite a bit of flops in the bringing in of this young talent, Leto and El Zhar are already 21 now and I would class them as highly unlikely to make the breakthough into regular first team action, with Leto having a very slightly better chance. Fransico Duran, would hate to be critical of a young player for being hurt, but he is also competing for time in the holding role of central midfield, which doesn't look like it will have many openings for a while. Jordy Brouwer = absolute sh!te, just not good enough, worse than Kuyt, and he plays against reserve competition.

Ryan Crowther, brought in this summer, haven't seen much of him to be fair, but it might be telling of his ability that he can't beat out ray putterill for playing time in the reserves, I think he might have had a small injury spell

Huth and San Jose, seem to play well in the reserves, but it seems that Skrtel and Agger are going to be the long term future of the club, Hobbs is probably better than both of them, Carra will be at the club until he can't walk anymore, so these kids wouldn't see any time until they are 24 or 25, odds are we would have purchased a better more experienced CB by then anyway, and players are only going to put up with being on loan for so long.

Antwi has potential, we will have to see how he looks after picking up a season of league 1 experience, but again there is only a 4 year difference between him and Agger and Skrtel, and he would also have to compete against Hobbs, Huth, San Jose, Ayala, Big Joe Kennedy, and Miki Roque.

Besian Idrizaij started the season with a hat trick in 23 minutes, but can't get a game at palace, even in the face of our terrible strikeforce situation, his future is sadly increasingly dimming. (but I am not ready to blow out his candle quite yet)

Anderson still has promise, but from what the Swansea fans say, they love him, think he will be a very good championship player, maybe even a lower table prem type player, but lacks that something special to break into a world class team lineup. Maybe they are overrating what that means, I mean all he has to do is beat out Pennant FFS, so I think he has hope.

Guthrie, Hammill, and somewhat Darby and Lindfield each have hope.

Once we sell Carson, it will be a good bit of business

High hopes for Insua as well as Pacheco, Bruna, Amoo, Pourie, Ecceston, Ajdarevic, possibly Bouzanis.

I think that the Lucas and Babel policy is probably the best policy, although they are expensive, you already know they are on the brink of world class, and there is still a year or two to mold them in your way, and they are already good enough to earn time with the first team. Milan did this with a bigger name in Pato, and I watched his debut, he LOOKS THE BUSINESS.

It seems that we have trouble with the transition phase between reserve and first team, a lot of it having to do with the fact that we have so many 1st teamers, and loan experience isn't as good because you aren't being brought up in the rafa way, playing against lesser competition, and you aren't becoming familiar with your LFC teammates.

This is why I would like to see us sell off Riise, momo, Kuyt, Voronin, and focus on only buying one world class 23-28 year old, while buying only the best of the best of the 15-18 and have the Anderson, Hammill, Guthrie, Lindfield, Insua, Pacheco, Bruna, Hobbs of the team be the players to fill out the depth of the squad

Good post.

Of course the main problem with these players is that the majority of them are foreign. The main concern is that we have won the youth cup 2 years on the bounce with some good young English kids and they are nowhere to be seen. Of the English kids, only Guthrie is playing at the highest level at the moment, and even he isn't a regular in the Bolton side.

Fortunately they are bringing in a rule about "home grown" players which will include any young player from overseas who has played for the club for three years at under-18s level.

by **jedwards** » Fri Jan 18, 2008 4:32 pm

It would be difficult for Rafa to take an approach like that now. His not won the title yet and it would be a huge task convince fans that a side was being built to win a title in 2, 3, or 4 years time. Like you say an approach like this has to be done when someone first arrives at the club. For Wenger its not just been about going out and signing young talent. The whole football culture and mentality has been changed at arsenal from the top straight down to the bottom. Those kids are playing the same way as the first team do and thats why they never look out of place. Its like they do 11 a side football on a 5 a side pitch.

Personally if I saw the same quality of kids coming through and the football was top quality then I would have a lot more hope for the future. As long as we were challenging and still getting good runs in Europe I would be supportive of such a scheme.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I totally agree with you, I do not think that Benitez will produce a team that will win the league. He has been buying a lot of young players since he became a LFC manager, and so far no one has managed to come through apart from Jack Hobbs although his chances has been very limited under Benitez.

Since Houlier and Benitez have been in charged, LFC had bought so many young players, but their respective systems had failed to produce more the five real good players, Houlier had inherited a very good pool of very promising players (British grown) which they were developed during Ray Evans, but soon idiot Houlier got rid of them one by one, on the cheap, to be replaced by very expensive below average players from France, and Benitez is no different, he is buying very average Spanish players and our squad is littered with those kind of players whether they are first team players or youth!!. As for the youth they just come here at LFC spend some two three years, never get developed and then of loaded cheaply to other clubs from their respective Countries, no thanks to Houlier and in particular Benitez, who has wasted some much of the club's money on his youth policy, which it had been a total failure, and on top of that he got rid of "Steve Highway" who was responsible for producing so many how grown talents in past years, while he was in charge of LFC youth system.

It is simply you can not compare this idiot Benitez with A. Wenger of Arsenal, the latter man does spot the right talent, and has a huge ability to develop these raw talent into top stars, if not a very good players, and the same applies to Ferguson of M.utd. LFC in the past years had been the masters for producing so many top talents, and we were hardly buying in bulk as we do now, however, we did buy then, but it was only very good quality, but these days under Benitez, we just buys in quantity, but a very low grade quality. THIS IS WHAT BENITEZ IS FOR YOU, NEGAITVE TACTICS, BAD YOUTH DEVELOPMENT SYESTEMS, BAD TEAM SELECTION ON WEEKLY BASIS, BAD PERFORMANCES, BAD RESULTS IS GUARANTEED, WASTE OF MONEY ALSO IS GUARANTEED.
:angry:

by **JoeTerp** » Fri Jan 18, 2008 4:54 pm

Here is a little FA youth cup study, just some names that jump out at me from looking at the squads of the teams that made it to the finals (which we have won two years in a row):
05/06: Micah Richards, Michael Johnson, Daniel Sturridge, ( I think we beat Gareth Bale's Southampton in the semis)
04/05: Gareth Bale, Theo Walcott
03/04: Craig Gardner, Agbonlahor, Andrew Taylor
02/03: David Wheater, Andrew Taylor, Kiernan Richardson, Paul McShane, Chris Eagles
01/02: Wayne Rooney
00/01: Steve Sidwell, Jermaine Pennant, Hoyte,
99/00: Gary McSheffrey, Steve Sidwell, Aliadiere
98/99: Kirkland, Joe Cole, Carrick, Stephen Bywater
97/98: Dunne, Osman,
96/97: Kewell, Paul Robinson, Woodgate, Alan Smith,
95/96: Carra, Ownen, Lampard, Rio Ferdinand
91/92: Neville, Savage, Butt, Beckham, Giggs, Scholes

look here to find more because I am sure there are ppl on here who will recognize more names than I can

by **Paul C** » Fri Jan 18, 2008 8:52 pm

I've said it once and I'll say it again, we'd spent £19m on an academy to save money in the future on home grown talent but nothing has been produced since Steven Gerrard back in 1999, I'd love to know how much Rafa has spent on players under 21 that haven't even had a sniff in the first team.

So far I haven't seen anything which has excited me, ok the FA youth cup side of 2 seasons ago was excellent but how many of them have made the next step, the likes off Barnett, Anderson, Hamill, etc haven't been given a chance.

Like in Spain I'd like to see a 'B team' to help our young players get experience, the FA needs to start looking at some kind of system or the future of young HOME GROWN talent looks very bleak imo because of all the foreign players!!

by **Scottbot** » Sat Jan 19, 2008 12:36 am

I took me nan to the Saints for the FA Cup win over Leicester a couple of weeks back. Hammill played the full 90 minutes for Saints, he looked like a good little player, quite brash, confident and happy to have a go at his opposite man every time he got the ball. Typical scouser really, reminded me of a young David Thompson. Hard to say from one live match but i think he's probably found his level at Saints, maybe lower Prem could be it, saying that, i'd have him ahead of Leto.

by **Paul C** » Sat Jan 19, 2008 1:29 am

mungi wrote:
Paul C wrote:The problem is that their is so much money at stake these days, even just 3 points can make a difference at the end of the season, I think that it would make more sense to have a second team in the lower divisions like Real Madrid do to play the youngsters, this would allow the development of young players.

I read that Rafa has signed 20 youth players in two and a half years, look at how many have come close to breaking into the first team in the league.......................... NONE!!!

Things need to change as having no quality players coming through the ranks since Gerrard in 1999 is p1ss poor

but those players that are coming over r 16, 17 and 18 yr olds. u cant expect them to break into the first team. give them a couple years, then make a comment on them. many of them come from outside england as well, so it might take more time.

Yeah but Rafa has brought in loads of youngsters over the four years he's been at Anfield and none have cut the mustard, a lot of them were brought four years ago when they were 15 and 16 (Hobbs, Anderson, Roque, etc) so at the age of 19 they should be at least making a couple of subs or knocking on the door but none are.

Jack Hobbs is a prime example, he came in for a few games but looked out of his depth and he's 20 this year.

I feel Rafa is just signing a load of youngster with the attitude "well at least one of them will come good" but the problem is that so far their hasn't been a diamond in the rough :no

So far imo Rafa has wasted money on youth that isn't good enough to play in the first team, it's no good just buying players who will play in the reserves then get loaned out to smaller clubs but end up getting sold on cos their not good enough, this has happened too much in the past and like I say we spent £19m on an academy when Houllier was here and what for? cos we'd not developing talent.

Oh by the way my cousin is the goalie for the under 10's so keep your eye out, you'll know him from the bright red hair and 'no fear' attitude

It needs to improve! :;):

by **Kharhaz** » Sat Jan 19, 2008 1:35 am

Oh by the way my cousin is the goalie for the under 10's so keep your eye out, you'll know him from the bright red hair and 'no fear' attitude

It needs to improve!

His hair?

Liverpool FC Forum

Youth development.... - reserve/youth team discussion

Who is online