Liverpool FC Forum

by **bigmick** » Wed Oct 24, 2007 9:59 am

This thing about not being bigger than the club is just a smokescreen though surely. Nobody is saying Gerrard is bigger than the club, least of all Gerrard himself. What people are saying tis that it was a silly substitution to make, which it definately was in my opinion.

Lucas did very well when he came on, but this notion that he turned the game on its head is utter nonsense. We were creating and missing chances in abundance before he came on, and had Riise moved out of the way instead of blasting over from Kuys pullback, Gerrard himself would probably have given us the lead a couple of minutes before he came off. That Gerrard was at the time of his substitution the dominant force on either team is surely beyond dispute isn't it? really?

Now like I say the Brazillian did well and it was a brave move by rafa to hand him his debut at such a time. I'd like to see more of him, but perhaps alongside the captain in some position or other not instead of him.

I know there is a determination to side with Rafa against all criticism which is admirable. But surely people can at least concede that given we won it in the dying seconds and then had to survive an extremely convincing penalty appeal at the other end, it's not being over critical to say that we won the game not because of a substitution but because it was our day.

by **account deleted by request** » Wed Oct 24, 2007 10:33 am

I was as surprised and upset as anyone when Gerrard was brought off , but in hindsight I think that maybe Gerrard sometimes adds too much urgency to our play when a calmer more deliberate approach might pay better dividends.

Having said that, the number of times Gerrard has pulled us out of the sh1t with great late goals can't be argued with either.

Bottom line if we had lost or drawn, if Lucas had played cr@p, if Gerrard had demanded a transfer, maybe I would be ranting and raving about Rafa's decision, as we won I am happy to give Rafa the benefit of any doubt, he made a brave decision, it worked, Lucas played well, Gerrard has taken it like a man. Time to move on!

by **66-1112520797** » Wed Oct 24, 2007 11:14 am

making that decision played a big part in our victory at Everton...

True enough it did, but would Rafa acknowledge the decision IF we'd had lost ?

by **matt74** » Wed Oct 24, 2007 11:26 am

A few times I have wondered whether Rafa had the guts to sub Gerrard in a big game. So i was torn when he came off. on the one hand I could seel long term advantages in Gerrard realising that even he has to fight for his place and it also sends a message to the rest of the team that Rafa is in charge and anybody can be dropped or subbed. This is important for players like Crouch who will appreciate that if Kuyt/Torres or Voronin don't perform he will get another opportunity.

On the other hand it was against 10 man Everton, Gerrard was the best player on the pitch at the time and Sissoko had been pretty awful. I think it was the right decision but at the wrong time....

Fortunately Rafa got away with it.

by **Leonmc0708** » Wed Oct 24, 2007 11:55 am

Bamaga man wrote:
making that decision played a big part in our victory at Everton...

True enough it did, but would Rafa acknowledge the decision IF we'd had lost ?

So now you want to cain him about stuff that might have happened ?

by **66-1112520797** » Wed Oct 24, 2007 12:02 pm

Leonmc0708 wrote:
Bamaga man wrote:
making that decision played a big part in our victory at Everton...

True enough it did, but would Rafa acknowledge the decision IF we'd had lost ?

So now you want to cain him about stuff that might have happened ?

No but its easier for a manager to come out and say

making that decision played a big part in our victory at Everton...

than it is to admit or even acknowledge you've done something wrong. I.E leaving Torres benched against Pompey and Brum.

Obviously there is no guarantee we'd won either fixture, but the probability would of been a hell of a lot higher.

p.s I've noticed you added a rare smiley, I reckon my pictures of myself intimidate you.

by **Igor Zidane** » Wed Oct 24, 2007 12:19 pm

Bamaga man wrote:
Leonmc0708 wrote:
Bamaga man wrote:
making that decision played a big part in our victory at Everton...

True enough it did, but would Rafa acknowledge the decision IF we'd had lost ?

So now you want to cain him about stuff that might have happened ?

No but its easier for a manager to come out and say
making that decision played a big part in our victory at Everton...

than it is to admit or even acknowledge you've done something wrong. I.E leaving Torres benched against Pompey and Brum.

Obviously there is no guarantee we'd won either fixture, but the probability would of been a hell of a lot higher.

I don't understand where your coming from on this Bm . We all agree that rafa makes the decisions , we all agree that if the substitution hadn't of come off then would have been severly critisized. The substitution did come off ,we won the game and yet wrongly imo rafa is still getting critisized for what might of happend. Well stevie might have missed the header in istanbul or smicer might have put the ball in row z.

It's all ifs and buts , we won , the sub was proved right because we won. If we had lost or drew ,well critisism would be justified. You know aswell as me football is full of what might have beens , but this one came off and it worked.

by **66-1112520797** » Wed Oct 24, 2007 12:33 pm

getting critisized for what might of happend

I critised it straight after the game.

But now I'm questioning it Igor, I havent critised it, but merely asking a hypethetical quesrtion.

by **Igor Zidane** » Wed Oct 24, 2007 12:50 pm

Bamaga man wrote:
getting critisized for what might of happend

I critised it straight after the game.

But now I'm questioning it Igor, I havent critised it, but merely asking a hypethetical quesrtion.

Fair enough mate , questioning the sub . The hypothesis can be applied both ways, what if gerrard had stayed on and broken his leg or given a penalty away and so on . I like 99.9% of the fans thought wtf is rafa doing ,but when we won i didn't find it hard to say ,good shout rafa that paid off lash. Not knell rafa if stevie would have stayed on we still would have won ,but earlier and better. 3pts are 3pts at the end of the day. I know how you feel about some of rafa's methods and on some i agree with you. You may call it happy clappy to give the boss credit ,but i think it works both ways . Whilst questioning some decisions is obviously justified ,i think giving credit where it's due is also.

by **Leonmc0708** » Wed Oct 24, 2007 12:51 pm

Bamaga man wrote:p.s I've noticed you added a rare smiley, I reckon my pictures of myself intimidate you.

Where ?

I need a good laugh . . .

by **Big Niall** » Wed Oct 24, 2007 1:00 pm

I think it was wrong of Lineker to say that it was bizarre, maybe Gary thinks that SG is untouchable despite some poor performances for lfc and england.

by **66-1112520797** » Wed Oct 24, 2007 1:04 pm

Igor Zidane wrote:
Bamaga man wrote:
getting critisized for what might of happend

I critised it straight after the game.

But now I'm questioning it Igor, I havent critised it, but merely asking a hypethetical quesrtion.

Fair enough mate , questioning the sub . The hypothesis can be applied both ways, what if gerrard had stayed on and broken his leg or given a penalty away and so on . I like 99.9% of the fans thought wtf is rafa doing ,but when we won i didn't find it hard to say ,good shout rafa that paid off lash. Not knell rafa if stevie would have stayed on we still would have won ,but earlier and better. 3pts are 3pts at the end of the day. I know how you feel about some of rafa's methods and on some i agree with you. You may call it happy clappy to give the boss credit ,but i think it works both ways . Whilst questioning some decisions is obviously justified ,i think giving credit where it's due is also.

Fair enough mate.

I agree with you about 'credit where its due' honestly. And I give it, credit

.

But I suppose as we won by a whisker I feel it was more luck, ontop of that Moyes' desicion to stay with two up top after they went down to 10 men, more so than Rafa's decision. The substitution though in the end paid off, thank God and Rafa

Ps Leon check the 'what you look like thread, you'll sh.it yourself.

by **account deleted by request** » Wed Oct 24, 2007 1:08 pm

Big Niall wrote:I think it was wrong of Lineker to say that it was bizarre, maybe Gary thinks that SG is untouchable despite some poor performances for lfc and england.

I dunno mate, my first thoughts when he subbed Gerrard were CRAZY, STUPID, BIZARRE. We won so I can rationalise it, but it was certainly a big big gamble by Rafa, and one that would have put his decision to rest Torres for a couple of games in the shade if we had lost.

by **Emerald Red** » Wed Oct 24, 2007 1:48 pm

Ciggy wrote:I am not siding with Rafa here but the fact we didnt beat Birmingham, Tottenham, Marselle or Everton with him on the pitch for 70 minutes either.

Maybe Rafa took him off for the others to pull their weight or maybe just maybe we play better without him at times.

I was Fuckin livid with gerrard the way he spoke to Voronin and Torres in the Spurs game escpecially the abuse he gave to Voronin for not passing the ball to him then the next thing you know we where getting beat because Voronin shit himself passed the ball and Gerrard missed.

Maybe our players feel inferior to him at times.
And maybe Gerrard is a little jelous of Torres getting all the attention and is the new boy wonder now.

And he's not THE MAN anymore.

If what you say is true, then God help us as a team.

The Everton game took place last Saturday, so maybe it's time to put the issue or debate about Rafa's strange tactics to bed and look forward to tonights CL game. It's a must win. It will be interesting to see how the team is set up tonight, that's for sure. That's what I love about Rafa: he keeps use guessing and on our toes. Every game is like a box of chocolates - you never know what you're gonna get. Now all I'm waiting on Rafa to say this in an interview one day. Rafa Gump.

by **burjennio** » Wed Oct 24, 2007 2:01 pm

Every game is like a box of chocolates - you never know what you're gonna get.

I never understood that line - surely it tells you on the packet what kinda chocolates ur gonna get

slightly off topic sorry

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