Liverpool FC Forum

by **ConnO'var** » Fri Oct 19, 2007 1:38 am

see ya mate

by **112-1077774096** » Fri Oct 19, 2007 1:48 am

hello_red wrote:
peewee wrote:wow, some people on here seem to think they know better than people who have gone the game since before they were even born, and they don't even go the games now. but they think their opinion is better than others, unbelievable.

I am still amazed that people doubt the 'doom mongers' when they can see for themselves, in black and white how far away we were last season from the top two, and how we have stumbled this season already.

whatever the reasons for this (and its been done to death already) those facts remain intact, we haven't been able to do it, and mick i am with you, i think we have had a strong enough team to win it but lackluster performances and mystifying decisions from the manager have blown it.

and again as with other posters who have this opinion, I am not calling for rafas head, simply calling for him to start using it

was that a dig at my post?

no mate, someone elses, it was aimed at zaras comments

by **hello_red** » Fri Oct 19, 2007 2:34 am

ahh right

I think though that alot has to be said about getting behind the team when the chips are down. The only people capable of pulling through this down turn is the players and the management. All the fans can do is show there support. But I do think that rotation can be a problem and the manager does over complicate matters sometimes but he is the man for the job. He did wonders with a very poor squad in the 2004-05 and 2005-06 seasons. Escpecially in the league during the 05-06 season.

by **112-1077774096** » Fri Oct 19, 2007 3:15 am

hello_red wrote:ahh right

I think though that alot has to be said about getting behind the team when the chips are down. The only people capable of pulling through this down turn is the players and the management. All the fans can do is show there support. But I do think that rotation can be a problem and the manager does over complicate matters sometimes but he is the man for the job. He did wonders with a very poor squad in the 2004-05 and 2005-06 seasons. Escpecially in the league during the 05-06 season.

i think the manager and the players have to understand also that the fans can get annoyed. I agree that the fans have to get behind them, but also the fans have a right to express displeasure at performances and tactics, at the end of the day they are paying to be there.

if the team looks disinterested then they deserve all the criticism that comes their way, if the manager sets up defensively and drops players and messes around and we drop points because of it then he deserves criticism.

it is wrong however to give criticism if none is due, but i feel the last few weeks it has been due and gives a good indication to the manager and players that people are not happy

by **hello_red** » Fri Oct 19, 2007 3:22 am

yeah fair point peewee. I have had some moans about the setup etc etc to people i know and who i work with and the general mood is the same. We need to perform this next week or will be out of contention! Need to win against Arsenal at Anfileld, a must! And I dont wanna think about Everton away :angry:

by **112-1077774096** » Fri Oct 19, 2007 4:02 am

two hard games mate that may make or break our season, i know some will say its only two games and we will still be in it, but we will only still be in it if other fail, in fact we are in that position already

by **maguskwt** » Fri Oct 19, 2007 5:33 am

Wilhelmsson wrote:If a manager is making on average 2.1 changes on the Sunday and then 4.4 changes on the Wednesday and another 2.1 a week later, then that’s a total of 8.6 changes in a week.

well that's the thing... some people like to combine these changes from league matches to cup matches to league matches hence over emphasising rotation... well maybe it's true it has a knock on effect...but one needs to talk more in context (like how bob is pointing out about the team selection for portsmouth... even though I still think it was a mistake not playing torres) instead of looking at the combined stats of changes and say rafa is over-rotating... for me it is quite sensible if rafa want's to change abit more for other competitions depending on where he wants the team to focus on...i.e. if he wants his first choice players to be at full strength for league matches then why not... and IMO the teams that he put out for the league are more or less sensible and not manychanges.

I'd also like to point out that in recent times both man united and chelsea ( yeah the one with possibly the biggest squad in europe) have fallen short in the CL even when they won the league. What I'm saying is that because they play a more consistent line up doesn't mean that they win everything. And this shows when you look at man u's performance against milan when they look a step behind. It is extremely difficult for a team to win both competitions nowadays. Instead for us we reached 2 CL finals in 3 seasons (not to mention an FA Cup trophy in between) while falling short in the league. (On a side note to a few, is this such a bad record in his first 3 seasons that we're calling for his head now?) And if rafa is supposedly emphasising on the leauge right now I don't see why he shouldn't rest players for other compeitions because in truth we still don't have a squad as strong as chelsea's.

p.s. I think this will be my last post discussing "rotation" for a long while...

by **heimdall** » Fri Oct 19, 2007 2:08 pm

The Grudge wrote:
s@int wrote:
redtrader74 wrote:
s@int wrote:
JamCar05 wrote:
s@int wrote:Reina ,Finnan ,Carragher ,Agger ,Arbeloa ,Pennant ,Sissoko ,Alonso ,Benayoun ,Voronin ,Crouch

Our team against Portsmouth

Reina - didn't play in the internationals
Carra - retired from internationals
Arbeloa-didn't play in the internationals
Pennant -didn't play in the internationals
Sissoko - didn't play in the internationals
Alonso - was sent off so hardly played in the internationals
Crouch - didn't play in the internationals

Voronin - no idea
Benayoun - no idea
So that leaves Finnan and Agger ?

Hardly a side overworked by international duty ?

No, and that' exactly why Rafa picked some of these players ahead of Torres and Gerrard, who had both played a lot (as far as my memory serves) in the previous internationals (Gerrard even carrying a toeinjury).

I'm sorry mate I don't really understand your point?

The original post was pointing out that the other teams could play their best team as they were not involved in the international break, we on the other hand had more players involved, Agger, Finnan, Gerrard, Torres, Voronin and Benayoun, speculating on his behalf, its the reason why the last four players on the list didn't start that game.

I am even more confused now mate

Only Gerrard and Torres didn't start the game against Portsmouth from that list? Gerrard was recovering from a broken toe and Torres from a bad knock. Obviously they were both fit to play some part as they did come on as subs.

The mancs had Rooney , Neville ,Park, Hargreaves, Saha missing.

We were two possibly three players away from our best team, and only a few had played in internationals. Wheres the difference? Or are we saying if Gerrard and Torres don't play we may as well not turn up?

Maybe if you stop comparing LFC to man utd in so many ways you would make a good mod!

Oh and by the way lad if you look back at all your posts,most are derogatory of LFC yet praise the Mancs??

Just an observor here after all...but its hardly sufficient that our mods have no faith in LFC and prefer to share their wealth of interest making other teams look better,while sh,itting all over the thing they profess to promote...ie LIVERPOOL FOOTBALL CLUB!

Maybe that and this is what it has come to..maybe i am actually out of touch on football but i LOVE liverpool and always will!

Maybe i am wrong but i trust my club ,manager and players and feel that come season end LFC will be up there!
Where will the rotation arguement go then ,who will talk about it?...Put your names up?

Who will say now that come season end we will be out of the league because of rotation??

I say we wont be out of it and will be up there fighting!Easy to chat about it now so early on!
Whos against me and LFC??

I am against you if that is your attitude NEVER against LFC.

by **heimdall** » Fri Oct 19, 2007 2:14 pm

I totally agree that we need to get behind the team for this coming week, but hand on heart if we don't play a hell of a lot better than we have been it could all go very very wrong.
I apologise if I come over as over negative in my last few posts but I just can't see a light at the end of the tunnel at the moment, I have lost all confidence in Rafa and it seems to me that the players have as well, that is of course an opinion and I hope it's wrong. I think Paco was a vital link to the team and I also think over rotation is decimating team morale and cohesion.

by **Sabre** » Fri Oct 19, 2007 2:23 pm

heimdall wrote:I totally agree that we need to get behind the team for this coming week, but hand on heart if we don't play a hell of a lot better than we have been it could all go very very wrong.
I apologise if I come over as over negative in my last few posts but I just can't see a light at the end of the tunnel at the moment, I have lost all confidence in Rafa and it seems to me that the players have as well, that is of course an opinion and I hope it's wrong. I think Paco was a vital link to the team and I also think over rotation is decimating team morale and cohesion.

I don't have problems with criticism when it's boxed in a more balanced way like this, I just have a problem when people insult the manager, or, for that matter, any player of the club like Crouch, for instance.

by **dawson99** » Fri Oct 19, 2007 2:25 pm

its peoples perogotives to have a moan. i do think crouch should be sold, i dont like his attitude. i think rafa has made some booboos... but.

i seriously think tomorrow is our turning point. our players havent looked 'up for it' lately. this wont happen come 12.45 tomorrow!

by **JamCar05** » Fri Oct 19, 2007 5:02 pm

s@int wrote:
redtrader74 wrote:
s@int wrote:
JamCar05 wrote:
s@int wrote:Reina ,Finnan ,Carragher ,Agger ,Arbeloa ,Pennant ,Sissoko ,Alonso ,Benayoun ,Voronin ,Crouch

Our team against Portsmouth

Reina - didn't play in the internationals
Carra - retired from internationals
Arbeloa-didn't play in the internationals
Pennant -didn't play in the internationals
Sissoko - didn't play in the internationals
Alonso - was sent off so hardly played in the internationals
Crouch - didn't play in the internationals

Voronin - no idea
Benayoun - no idea
So that leaves Finnan and Agger ?

Hardly a side overworked by international duty ?

No, and that' exactly why Rafa picked some of these players ahead of Torres and Gerrard, who had both played a lot (as far as my memory serves) in the previous internationals (Gerrard even carrying a toeinjury).

I'm sorry mate I don't really understand your point?

The original post was pointing out that the other teams could play their best team as they were not involved in the international break, we on the other hand had more players involved, Agger, Finnan, Gerrard, Torres, Voronin and Benayoun, speculating on his behalf, its the reason why the last four players on the list didn't start that game.

I am even more confused now mate

Only Gerrard and Torres didn't start the game against Portsmouth from that list? Gerrard was recovering from a broken toe and Torres from a bad knock. Obviously they were both fit to play some part as they did come on as subs.

The mancs had Rooney , Neville ,Park, Hargreaves, Saha missing.

We were two possibly three players away from our best team, and only a few had played in internationals. Wheres the difference? Or are we saying if Gerrard and Torres don't play we may as well not turn up?

Saint mate, I'm sorry if I wasn't being very clear with my point (but i was tired and had to make it short

). I was just trying to point out, that Torres and Gerrard were spared because of their involvement in the internationals (where Torres got a knock and Gerrard carried an injury), and in this way trying to justify, why Rafa decided as he did. Obviously they were able to play some part, but if Rafa thinks they weren't up to the full 90 minutes, then I choose to respect this decision of his. The reason I'm bringing this up, is that most posters on this forum seem convinced, that we would have won against Portsmouth, had they been on the field from the beginning on. This might be true, but we'll never know that now.

What I don't understand, is why you brought forward the comparison with the manc's team and thus try to show, that we had as few players in our starting eleven who had been involved in the internationals as them. Are you thereby implying, that we should have been able to win against Portsmouth, as the mancs won their game against Everton? In that case I don't understand it, as the mancs were lucky to scrape a 1-0 win, which we almost did aswell when Voronin hit the bar (although admitted, we could quite easily have lost the game aswell). It's all about margins some times. You can't just say, that if we are missing (about) the same amount of players as the mancs, we should automatically get the same result as them. It all depends on who you're up against, how the players perform on the given day etc.

This got a bit longer and more complicated than I wanted it to, so if I misunderstood you or have made you more confused, I apologize in advance

by **Sabre** » Fri Oct 19, 2007 6:56 pm

Some fresh translated quotes from Rafa to Radio Marca

Rafa on the international friendly games

(Spain played against Finland a friendly that is considered useless)

"I've had at my disposal 4-5 players this week, you hardly can prepare well a match that way"

"And what's worse, players go to their countries and they can't even train on their own and they're given free days. I need this time to work"

"They could have played the game before and leave us a whole week to work, but no, they set a pointless friendly on wednesday. That spoils all my schedule"

Rafa on Torres

"Torres wants to play the derby and it's forcing the recovery process to achieve that, but it will be complicated to reach in time for the game" -- I wouldn't take too literally this answer, it's a common practice to say around here that a player won't be ready and then in the match day be ready by surprise

Rafa on his future

If I don't have unexpected problems, I expect to fulfill my whole contract in Liverpool.

Rafa on the Raul controversy (he's not been summoned by Aragones and the Madrid press is fuming

"Everything is magnified too . In England something similar happens. More calmness is needed"

No questions on rotation, sorry :laugh:

by **red37** » Fri Oct 19, 2007 7:16 pm

Sabre wrote:

"I've had at my disposal 4-5 players this week, you hardly can prepare well a match that way"

Been here before...bodes well doesn't it.

"Torres wants to play the derby and it's forcing the recovery process to achieve that, but it will be complicated to reach in time for the game" -- I wouldn't take too literally this answer, it's a common practice to say around here that a player won't be ready and then in the match day be ready by surprise

Subs bench? We need his craft and threat - but at what price?

If I don't have unexpected problems, I expect to fulfill my whole contract in Liverpool.

But don't rule the notion completely out of hand...'If' being the interesting bit.

Sorry sabre - me teas ready! And im not at liberty to make full sense on an empty tank!

But im not sure if im comfortable reading the gaffer of late. Somethings changed somewhere in his demeanor.

by **Bad Bob** » Fri Oct 19, 2007 8:11 pm

s@int wrote:
redtrader74 wrote:
s@int wrote:
JamCar05 wrote:
s@int wrote:Reina ,Finnan ,Carragher ,Agger ,Arbeloa ,Pennant ,Sissoko ,Alonso ,Benayoun ,Voronin ,Crouch

Our team against Portsmouth

Reina - didn't play in the internationals
Carra - retired from internationals
Arbeloa-didn't play in the internationals
Pennant -didn't play in the internationals
Sissoko - didn't play in the internationals
Alonso - was sent off so hardly played in the internationals
Crouch - didn't play in the internationals

Voronin - no idea
Benayoun - no idea
So that leaves Finnan and Agger ?

Hardly a side overworked by international duty ?

No, and that' exactly why Rafa picked some of these players ahead of Torres and Gerrard, who had both played a lot (as far as my memory serves) in the previous internationals (Gerrard even carrying a toeinjury).

I'm sorry mate I don't really understand your point?

The original post was pointing out that the other teams could play their best team as they were not involved in the international break, we on the other hand had more players involved, Agger, Finnan, Gerrard, Torres, Voronin and Benayoun, speculating on his behalf, its the reason why the last four players on the list didn't start that game.

I am even more confused now mate

Only Gerrard and Torres didn't start the game against Portsmouth from that list? Gerrard was recovering from a broken toe and Torres from a bad knock. Obviously they were both fit to play some part as they did come on as subs.

The mancs had Rooney , Neville ,Park, Hargreaves, Saha missing.

We were two possibly three players away from our best team, and only a few had played in internationals. Wheres the difference? Or are we saying if Gerrard and Torres don't play we may as well not turn up?

Saint, my original point was that the international break disrupts any team's rhythm (two weeks with no league matches must have an effect). But, it especially disrupts the rhythm of teams with high numbers of internationals, as we saw with 3 of the Big Four.

In our case, Rafa opted to rest Gerrard, Torres, Babel, Mascherano and Kuyt due to their involvement in international action. To varying degrees, all are players who can arguably claim a spot in our Best 11. Ergo, the international break had an effect on team selection against Portsmouth. Yet, when people saw the teamsheet and especially after the result, the criticism of the team selection was deafening, with many a poster dismissing the international break as a lame excuse for Rafa to tinker with the team. The implication was that Rafa had worried too much about player fitness coming off of the international matches and that he had not fielded a team that was capable of winning on the day.

Comparing Chelsea's approach against Blackburn that day is interesting, then, as it was quite different from ours: while Rafa decided to chop and change in order to field his freshest 11, Jose decided to stick with his core team, despite the squad's tremendous strength in depth. Indeed, Mourinho still opted to play six players (Cech, Terry, A. Cole, J. Cole, SWP and Shevchenko) who had been heavily involved in international matches, along side squad players like Sidwell and Alex. The result? A tepid 0-0 home draw with Blackburn, which kind of puts our result against Portsmouth and Rafa's team selection on the day into perspective. Maybe fielding key players coming off the back of two gruelling international matches wasn't necessarily a recipe for success?

In the case of the Mancs away to Everton, Ferguson opted to field almost his strongest available team, after injuries are considered. Besides the unusual move of playing Evra at LM and Silvestre at LB, the team that day looked much like the teams put out in league fixtures before the international break. He could afford to do this because only Van Der Sar, Ferdinand, Vidic, Ronaldo and Tevez had actually played for their countries during the break (Brown and Evra traveled but didn't play)--and only in one match in the case of both Vidic and Tevez (although the latter did fly to Australia to do so). Nonetheless, the Mancs also struggled on the day, requiring a late winner to take all 3 points at Goodison. So, I think it is fair to say that the international break disrupted the Mancs as well, despite the fact that they had the likes of Scholes, Giggs and Carrick to call on for fresh legs.

Indeed, of the Big Four, only Arsenal could field a team comprised of regular first teamers who had not been heavily involved in international duty. Of their line-up that day, only Hleb and Van Persie had played in both of their international matches during the preceeding fortnight (Spurs had four players). Fabregas, in fact, played only 20 minutes in Spain's second match. Is it any wonder they ran out 3-1 winners on the day?

So, given the team selections and performances of the Top Four sides on the day, I think it's reasonable to suggest that international breaks do monkey with a team's preparations and rhythm, leading to some less than stellar football in the first game back. Of course, I hope that we rise above all that and absolutely muller the bitters tomorrow but, if we don't, I hope people will at least consider the impact of the international break this time around when passing judgment on our performance.

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