Liverpool FC Forum

[JamCar05]

Reina ,Finnan ,Carragher ,Agger ,Arbeloa ,Pennant  ,Sissoko ,Alonso  ,Benayoun ,Voronin ,Crouch

Our team against Portsmouth

Reina - didn't play in the internationals
Carra - retired from internationals
Arbeloa-didn't play in the internationals
Pennant  -didn't play in the internationals
Sissoko - didn't play in the internationals
Alonso - was sent off so hardly played in the internationals
Crouch - didn't play in the internationals

Voronin - no idea
Benayoun - no idea
So that leaves Finnan and Agger ?

Hardly a side overworked by international duty ?

No, and that' exactly why Rafa picked some of these players ahead of Torres and Gerrard, who had both played a lot (as far as my memory serves) in the previous internationals (Gerrard even carrying a toeinjury).

I'm sorry mate I don't really understand your point?

The original post was pointing out that the other teams could play their best team as they were not involved in the international break, we on the other hand had more players involved, Agger, Finnan, Gerrard, Torres, Voronin and Benayoun, speculating on his behalf, its the reason why the last four players on the list didn't start that game.

I am even more confused now mate 

Only Gerrard and Torres didn't start the game against Portsmouth from that list?  Gerrard was recovering from a broken toe and Torres from a bad knock. Obviously they were both fit to play some part as they did come on as subs.

The mancs had  Rooney , Neville ,Park, Hargreaves, Saha missing.

We were two possibly three players away from our best team, and only a few had played in internationals. Wheres the difference? Or are we saying if Gerrard and Torres don't play we may as well not turn up?

Saint, my original point was that the international break disrupts any team's rhythm (two weeks with no league matches must have an effect).  But, it especially disrupts the rhythm of teams with high numbers of internationals, as we saw with 3 of the Big Four.

In our case, Rafa opted to rest Gerrard, Torres, Babel, Mascherano and Kuyt due to their involvement in international action.  To varying degrees, all are players who can arguably claim a spot in our Best 11.  Ergo, the international break had an effect on team selection against Portsmouth.  Yet, when people saw the teamsheet and especially after the result, the criticism of the team selection was deafening, with many a poster dismissing the international break as a lame excuse for Rafa to tinker with the team.  The implication was that Rafa had worried too much about player fitness coming off of the international matches and that he had not fielded a team that was capable of winning on the day.

Comparing Chelsea's approach against Blackburn that day is interesting, then, as it was quite different from ours: while Rafa decided to chop and change in order to field his freshest 11, Jose decided to stick with his core team, despite the squad's tremendous strength in depth.  Indeed, Mourinho still opted to play six players (Cech, Terry, A. Cole, J. Cole, SWP and Shevchenko) who had been heavily involved in international matches, along side squad players like Sidwell and Alex.  The result?  A tepid 0-0 home draw with Blackburn, which kind of puts our result against Portsmouth and Rafa's team selection on the day into perspective.  Maybe fielding key players coming off the back of two gruelling international matches wasn't necessarily a recipe for success?

In the case of the Mancs away to Everton, Ferguson opted to field almost his strongest available team, after injuries are considered.  Besides the unusual move of playing Evra at LM and Silvestre at LB, the team that day looked much like the teams put out in league fixtures before the international break.  He could afford to do this because only Van Der Sar, Ferdinand, Vidic, Ronaldo and Tevez had actually played for their countries during the break (Brown and Evra traveled but didn't play)--and only in one match in the case of both Vidic and Tevez (although the latter did fly to Australia to do so).  Nonetheless, the Mancs also struggled on the day, requiring a late winner to take all 3 points at Goodison.  So, I think it is fair to say that the international break disrupted the Mancs as well, despite the fact that they had the likes of Scholes, Giggs and Carrick to call on for fresh legs.

Indeed, of the Big Four, only Arsenal could field a team comprised of regular first teamers who had not been heavily involved in international duty.  Of their line-up that day, only Hleb and Van Persie had played in both of their international matches during the preceeding fortnight (Spurs had four players).  Fabregas, in fact, played only 20 minutes in Spain's second match.  Is it any wonder they ran out 3-1 winners on the day?

So, given the team selections and performances of the Top Four sides on the day, I think it's reasonable to suggest that international breaks do monkey with a team's preparations and rhythm, leading to some less than stellar football in the first game back.  Of course, I hope that we rise above all that and absolutely muller the bitters tomorrow but, if we don't, I hope people will at least consider the impact of the international break this time around when passing judgment on our performance.

Well put Bad Bob. This is (sort of) the same I was trying to say in my post a bit further up on the page, though I probably wasn't very precise on that occasion 

[account deleted by request]

Bob and JamCar05 thanks for the further explanations . The point I was struggling to make is we have a core of  first team players that arn't playing internationals, and just like any other successful team have to cope with international breaks . We are at no greater disadvantage than the other top teams, all teams (even small teams like Everton) have players who go away on international duty, the difference is that we have the luxury of having decent players to replace or rest our international players if required, small teams may not.

Rafa chose not to start Gerrard and Torres, I am sure with hindsight he would have made a different  decision.

[Wilhelmsson]

The original post was pointing out that the other teams could play their best team as they were not involved in the international break, we on the other hand had more players involved, Agger, Finnan, Gerrard, Torres, Voronin and Benayoun, speculating on his behalf, its the reason why the last four players on the list didn't start that game.

I am even more confused now mate 

Only Gerrard and Torres didn't start the game against Portsmouth from that list?  Gerrard was recovering from a broken toe and Torres from a bad knock. Obviously they were both fit to play some part as they did come on as subs.

The mancs had  Rooney , Neville ,Park, Hargreaves, Saha missing.

We were two possibly three players away from our best team, and only a few had played in internationals. Wheres the difference? Or are we saying if Gerrard and Torres don't play we may as well not turn up?[/quote]
Saint, my original point was that the international break disrupts any team's rhythm (two weeks with no league matches must have an effect).  But, it especially disrupts the rhythm of teams with high numbers of internationals, as we saw with 3 of the Big Four.

In our case, Rafa opted to rest Gerrard, Torres, Babel, Mascherano and Kuyt due to their involvement in international action.  To varying degrees, all are players who can arguably claim a spot in our Best 11.  Ergo, the international break had an effect on team selection against Portsmouth.  Yet, when people saw the teamsheet and especially after the result, the criticism of the team selection was deafening, with many a poster dismissing the international break as a lame excuse for Rafa to tinker with the team.  The implication was that Rafa had worried too much about player fitness coming off of the international matches and that he had not fielded a team that was capable of winning on the day.

Comparing Chelsea's approach against Blackburn that day is interesting, then, as it was quite different from ours: while Rafa decided to chop and change in order to field his freshest 11, Jose decided to stick with his core team, despite the squad's tremendous strength in depth.  Indeed, Mourinho still opted to play six players (Cech, Terry, A. Cole, J. Cole, SWP and Shevchenko) who had been heavily involved in international matches, along side squad players like Sidwell and Alex.  The result?  A tepid 0-0 home draw with Blackburn, which kind of puts our result against Portsmouth and Rafa's team selection on the day into perspective.  Maybe fielding key players coming off the back of two gruelling international matches wasn't necessarily a recipe for success?

In the case of the Mancs away to Everton, Ferguson opted to field almost his strongest available team, after injuries are considered.  Besides the unusual move of playing Evra at LM and Silvestre at LB, the team that day looked much like the teams put out in league fixtures before the international break.  He could afford to do this because only Van Der Sar, Ferdinand, Vidic, Ronaldo and Tevez had actually played for their countries during the break (Brown and Evra traveled but didn't play)--and only in one match in the case of both Vidic and Tevez (although the latter did fly to Australia to do so).  Nonetheless, the Mancs also struggled on the day, requiring a late winner to take all 3 points at Goodison.  So, I think it is fair to say that the international break disrupted the Mancs as well, despite the fact that they had the likes of Scholes, Giggs and Carrick to call on for fresh legs.

Indeed, of the Big Four, only Arsenal could field a team comprised of regular first teamers who had not been heavily involved in international duty.  Of their line-up that day, only Hleb and Van Persie had played in both of their international matches during the preceeding fortnight (Spurs had four players).  Fabregas, in fact, played only 20 minutes in Spain's second match.  Is it any wonder they ran out 3-1 winners on the day?

So, given the team selections and performances of the Top Four sides on the day, I think it's reasonable to suggest that international breaks do monkey with a team's preparations and rhythm, leading to some less than stellar football in the first game back.  Of course, I hope that we rise above all that and absolutely muller the bitters tomorrow but, if we don't, I hope people will at least consider the impact of the international break this time around when passing judgment on our performance.[/quote]
I don’t feel anyone is disputing the fact that International breaks has an effect on team rhythm, it sure does IMO, especially if a vast majority of the team are regulars at International level. This aside, MU, Chelsea and Arsenal have all had problems from International matches and this did not stop them winning the Premiership.

International breaks are few and far between, it’s not as though International breaks are a regular occurrence are they? IMO it’s Rafa’s whole sale changing and the players not pulling their weight have been the main two factors to our recent slump in form.

This said, of course International breaks have had an effect, but the team should be able to rise above it and shoulder on. If the current crop of players cannot handle International and club commitments, then subsequently these players need a) decide between club or country b) transfer to a club with less ambition than this club.

I know this possibly lacks perspective, but if MU, Chelsea and Arsenal can handle International breaks without going into turmoil then this team has little excuse not to follow suit.

[Bad Bob]

Bob and JamCar05 thanks for the further explanations . The point I was struggling to make is we have a core of  first team players that arn't playing internationals, and just like any other successful team have to cope with international breaks . We are at no greater disadvantage than the other top teams, all teams (even small teams like Everton) have players who go away on international duty, the difference is that we have the luxury of having decent players to replace or rest our international players if required, small teams may not.

Rafa chose not to start Gerrard and Torres, I am sure with hindsight he would have made a different  decision.

But, does your second paragraph not contradict your first, mate?  If, as you say, we have the luxury of having decent players to replace or rest our international players, why would Rafa have made a different decision on resting Gerrard and Torres in hindsight?  After all, they had both been involved in those international matches, whereas we had decent (not equal) players in their positions who were well rested.  It would seem to be an entirely logical time to rest them, based on the very argument you've presented: we've got the depth to cover for their absence.

[Wilhelmsson]

As I have already said, there are plenty of threads 'offering' an opinion or two on what 'is going wrong' etc etc., some of us are content with watching and seeing what happens, and yes believe the Bioss will deliver the success we want.

without reading

I seek refuge in here for now for the doom merchants prevail in too many places for now! I don't wnat to read the self righteous drivel and opinions of others on here - some balanced views some down right ****, whoc frankly don't see it like I do - bring on Paul Tompkins I say we need rationalisation of a situation being blown out of proportions.

Choosing to wait and see what happens is indeed your prerogative and one you are more than entitled too, but people are more than entitled to vent their feelings on the forum at any time they choose, that is these people’s prerogative.

You sound more self righteous than anyone other member I have come across and I have read all but two of your posts. FWIW I’d like to have a discussion come the end of the season with you regarding this season, it should an interesting discussion.

As for Tomkins, the man writes a good piece, but I find he is a person who will defend the inexcusable to the death and for that I can see why he was offered a journalist job on the official forum.

[zarababe]

wow, some people on here seem to think they know better than people who have gone the game since before they were even born, and they don't even go the games now. but they think their opinion is better than others, unbelievable.

I am still amazed that people doubt the 'doom mongers' when they can see for themselves, in black and white how far away we were last season from the top two, and how we have stumbled this season already.

whatever the reasons for this (and its been done to death already) those facts remain intact, we haven't been able to do it, and mick i am with you, i think we have had a strong enough team to win it but lackluster performances and mystifying decisions from the manager have blown it.

and again as with other posters who have this opinion, I am not calling for rafas head, simply calling for him to start using it

was that a dig at my post?

no mate, someone elses, it was aimed at zaras comments   

I object to being reffered to as 'people'  and will be reporting this 'dig' to all ... 20 moderators on here 

[JamCar05]

Bob and JamCar05 thanks for the further explanations . The point I was struggling to make is we have a core of  first team players that arn't playing internationals, and just like any other successful team have to cope with international breaks . We are at no greater disadvantage than the other top teams, all teams (even small teams like Everton) have players who go away on international duty, the difference is that we have the luxury of having decent players to replace or rest our international players if required, small teams may not.

Rafa chose not to start Gerrard and Torres, I am sure with hindsight he would have made a different  decision.

But, does your second paragraph not contradict your first, mate?  If, as you say, we have the luxury of having decent players to replace or rest our international players, why would Rafa have made a different decision on resting Gerrard and Torres in hindsight?  After all, they had both been involved in those international matches, whereas we had decent (not equal) players in their positions who were well rested.  It would seem to be an entirely logical time to rest them, based on the very argument you've presented: we've got the depth to cover for their absence.

Your welcome Saint  Again I have to agree with Bad Bob though (Oh dear God, it sounds as if I'm totally sucking up to him - I swear, it has got nothing to do with the fact, that he's a moderator on the forum   )

Btw, I'm not having a dig at you in any way Saint, it is just that I was indeed thinking the exact same thing as Bad Bob when I read your last post.

[LFC2007]

You sound more self righteous than anyone other member I have come across and I have read all but two of your posts.

[account deleted by request]

Bob and JamCar05 thanks for the further explanations . The point I was struggling to make is we have a core of  first team players that arn't playing internationals, and just like any other successful team have to cope with international breaks . We are at no greater disadvantage than the other top teams, all teams (even small teams like Everton) have players who go away on international duty, the difference is that we have the luxury of having decent players to replace or rest our international players if required, small teams may not.

Rafa chose not to start Gerrard and Torres, I am sure with hindsight he would have made a different  decision.

But, does your second paragraph not contradict your first, mate?  If, as you say, we have the luxury of having decent players to replace or rest our international players, why would Rafa have made a different decision on resting Gerrard and Torres in hindsight?  After all, they had both been involved in those international matches, whereas we had decent (not equal) players in their positions who were well rested.  It would seem to be an entirely logical time to rest them, based on the very argument you've presented: we've got the depth to cover for their absence.

It probably does Bob, but when you consider that Kuyt and Crouch still haven't scored a league goal this season, I think with hindsight he might have decided to gamble with Torres' fitness and risked him missing the "vital" Coca Cola cup match instead. In just the same way that other top teams who also have adequate replacements still tend to play their key matchwinners whenever possible

[Torres 2007]

Hello

and  I refer to a comment from the original poster of this topic.........

So, again, both Benitez and Ferguson used rotation. The difference? United won the title and Liverpool didn't.

Exactly.

Rotation does effect performance and consistency. When Arsenal were so dominent, they never left out key players, ie, pires, lunberg, viera, henry, campell, always in the side, every game.

Ferguson, would keep his key players in for most games, the Neville's Rooney's Ronaldo's. etc. every match.

Im not gonna judge Rafa's selection of players, as it's obvious he knows good from cr*p in the transfer market, but I mean this is his 4th season. Mr Gerard Houllier got 4 seasons , correct me if im wrong.

But I will judge Rafa on how far off the top we are this season.

Im sorry but if its more than 10 points (like 21 last), he has to go because we are no closer to winning the league. Because that is an embarrassment.

Rafa's problem is selection of the team and Rotation.

We lost the CL final V Milan in Athens, because Rafa picked the wrong team. MIlan were there for the taking that night, them and the're 40 year old defence.

I mean, playing Zenden on the wing when he should have played Riise, and bringing on Harry Kewell who hast seen a footbaLL for 12 months twice through injury, is just totally Bizarre!

Also, I think in January, is the time for Benitez to be bold and sell Peter Crouch for say 4-5 million, and then buy back Michael Owen for around 8-9m. so owen back will not offset the budget too heavily.

Crouch is good on the deck, but has no pace, and cannot head the ball at all. for example, in the Tolouse home game, he squandered about 4 clear cut heading chances, so his height is of no advantage to him. he is not a good header. ok he might head the chandeliers all night at home when he walks through his mansion in formby, but he aint a good header. Owen when fit, is more sharper and quicker and is a far more danger than crouch.
Rafa is not beyond critisism, so dont be so nieve' boyo.

[Wilhelmsson]

You sound more self righteous than anyone other member I have come across and I have read all but two of your posts.

I know I am self righteous; you really didn’t need to point it out.

[Bad Bob]

You sound more self righteous than anyone other member I have come across and I have read all but two of your posts.

I know I am self righteous; you really didn’t need to point it out.

[Avi Cohen]

This Rafa criticism has to stop? Okay, so where's the cut off point then, lads? When we play badly ten games on the trot? Twenty? When we're knocked out of the Champions league?

Can anyone tell me what formation we were playing today against Everton? I watched the match and had no clue.

We were playing with two defencive midfielders today and with Everton down to ten men, Rafa waits 25 minutes (THAT'S 25 MINUTES, GUYS) to change the set up - and what does he do? Takes off our captain in a derby match.

Players can play badly, yes, but for six/seven games on the trot? The players can be at fault for a certain amount but IMO the team is set up all wrong. All wrong. We have no ideas going forward because it isn't worked on as hard as winning the ball back. Which is why the first instinct for one of our players when he has the ball is turn around and pass it back. No movement up front from any of our strikers.

Don't know about you but I'm getting sick and tired watching Birmingham play in the Liverpool colours.

[Sabre]

Spanish journo: Rafa, much criticism on rotation no?

Rafa: Yes, but that's not a problem

Spanish Journo: No?

Rafa: No. If I want end the criticism on rotation, I just put Gerrard on the right, the I substitute him 30 minutes before I should, and presto, no english journo will talk about rotation all the week, just Gerrard.

Spanish journo: Oh! nice move! Tactical genius indeed!

[whylongball?]

Spanish journo: Rafa, much criticism on rotation no?

Rafa: Yes, but that's not a problem

Spanish Journo: No?

Rafa: No. If I want end the criticism on rotation, I just put Gerrard on the right, the I substitute him 30 minutes before I should, and presto, no english journo will talk about rotation all the week, just Gerrard.

Spanish journo: Oh! nice move! Tactical genius indeed!

good one