Liverpool FC Forum

[maguskwt]

So, what the whole rotation debate now seems to hinge on is whether you think that making significant changes to the side for cup competitions has a negative knock-on effect on our league performances.

if you look at the league match dates it's pretty regular...1 match a week, except for Sep 1 to Sep 15... my  point here is they're playing regulalry enough with only around 2 changes per week...

IMO if professional footballers cannot adapt to this much change mentally they should not be called professional footballers...

[Bad Bob]

So, what the whole rotation debate now seems to hinge on is whether you think that making significant changes to the side for cup competitions has a negative knock-on effect on our league performances.

if you look at the league match dates it's pretty regular...1 match a week, except for Sep 1 to Sep 15... my  point here is they're playing regulalry enough with only around 2 changes per week...

IMO if professional footballers cannot adapt to this much change mentally they should not be called professional footballers...

I'm not sure if I was clear, so let me explain it better.  There are those who think that the changes that Rafa makes when we go from league matches to cup matches and back again has a knock-on effect.  These people will concede the point that Rafa has picked a fairly settled side in our 8 league games to date but would suggest that swapping out 5-6 players for a midweek cup tie (Champions League or Carling Cup) sandwiched in between two league matches (and most of our season to date has seen us playing two games a week in various competitions...with the international breaks thrown in as well), disrupts the team's flow.

So, if Gerrard, for instance, partners Mascherano in CM in the league on Saturday but than has Sissoko next to him on Wednesday for a CL match, he'll have a harder time finding his rhythm when partnered with Mascherano again in the league the following Sunday, or so goes the argument.  For some, the fact that Arsenal, for instance, plays virtually the same team in the Champions League as they do in the league (they do, I checked) has played an important role in their bright start because it has allowed them to get into a rhythm and build momentum.  That's the argument, mate.

[bigmick]

Bob's analysis is spot on, and it's very difficult for me to imagine how anybody can look at those stats (and bearing in mind if you include "forced" changes we are up and over 70 in thirteen games) and not come to the conclusion that just maybe we have overdone it a bit.

It seems to me that this season we are going for one last attempt to see if we can make the theory work. We've tried mass rotation before and it appears not to have been overly beneficial (although somebody will point out the record points total season before last no doubt) and this season we are going about it slightly differently. We are mass rotating in everything other than the league, in which we are just rotating on the high side of normally. I'm afraid that this new experiment is also doomed to fail, as I don't think it's possible to average changing in excess of half the team every single game and still play with the maximum amount of fluency. I think it's absolutely impossible, a suicidal policy and in my view we have almost proved it to be so already this season.

My hope is that once Rafa has realised that it won't work, he'll change tack (there's a distinct possibility bordering on probability in my view that this may already have happened). Hopefully then, we'll get to see how good the team really is.

Remember, I'm not asking for the same team in every single game, I'm not saying we can't cope with any rotation whatsoever, and I'm not saying we don't take into any account in any way shape or form how the opposition set up. All I am asking for, and I think many others are asking the same, is that we give the team a chance to gel. We don't need to make six and seven changes every single game so lets not do it. Use the Carling Cup to feck about in, and in the other games go with somewhere very close to your team you started the last game with. It's about to happen I think.

[Igor Zidane]

excellent stats bob and thanks alot... I didn't see that thread before.

so here is how the stats look like...

58 changes from last match in 13 games...4.4 changes per game

17 league match changes in 8 games... 2.1 changes per league game...

well I guess my empirical study of saying rafa mostly rotates the second striker, LW for the league and more for other competition is not far off Wilhelmsson...

I do think that overall rafa rotates a bit too much.. given the first line of stats (and this could mean he's giving far more priority to the league)... but for the league his rotations are sensible IMO and the reason for the team's lacklustre performance should not fall solely on rotation... that is all I wanna say...

It is important to note that I have only listed "unforced" changes rather than ones due to injury or suspension (I did that because it's the unforced changes that are being debated when we talk about rotation).  So, when people quote higher numbers of changes for the season so far, they are generally lumping in the changes due to injury/suspension as well.

In general, though, your conclusions are sound: Rafa is making a fair few changes from game to game--especially at LM and up top--but is keeping a fairly settled side in the league.  So, what the whole rotation debate now seems to hinge on is whether you think that making significant changes to the side for cup competitions has a negative knock-on effect on our league performances.

But, you know what, reading the additional posts made in the last few days has convinced that, despite what "brigade" we've been lumped into, most of us broadly agree.  The general consensus really does seem to be that, while a limited rotation policy makes absolute sense for a team that plays as many matches as we do in a year, perhaps Rafa does overdo it a bit at times and that our form would improve if he decided to stick with a more or less settled side (ie. no more than a couple changes from match to match) for the next few weeks.

That's the b all and end all i think bob , most of us are not pro or anti rotationalist . I think we pretty much agree that rotation will take place and are happy for it to do so ,but it's how much and when is the crux really . Unless your a mr heimdall and want the manager sacked and bring Neil warnock in instead.

There you go i said i wanted to keep out of the rotation debate until after chrimbo , but you just get drawn into the debate don't you. Never mind ,maybe we can go on a long unbeaten run and the said Mr hiemdall can come back with a better reason to sack rafa.

[The Grudge]

REALITY CHECK!!

We are not a club in crisis...far from it!

OK we have drawn a few games we expected to win,but Jeeeeezuz bloooming chriiist,to hear you lot on here you would think it was the 38th game of the season and we were on the verge of relegation!
On the contrary people we are 4th in the league with a boatload of games to go and the potential to do a lot better!
Consider the fact that we have been playing cr@p and are still in the top 4...Consider the fact we can only get better then consider the fact that we just may be in touching distance of the league title with a few games to go later in the season?

Heimdall for that post above you should be put put in the stalks and humiliated with rotten eggs and tomatoes...but im going to do something much worse than that...I've E mailed Sesame street and the Muppet show and told them that one of their puppets is on the run and living in Norway..Guess what,They are coming to get you!

Apparently big bird is livid!

[jeff capes]

lol i can't believe this post is still up.

i have been away for a while but notice a couple people is ver angry with me.

strangely they have not said why  but apparently its me thats thick.

i would like to the  opportunity to explore the reasons.

or should just post some pointless insults without actually having the ability to communicate why i'm unhappy.

[Bad Bob]

Bob's analysis is spot on, and it's very difficult for me to imagine how anybody can look at those stats (and bearing in mind if you include "forced" changes we are up and over 70 in thirteen games) and not come to the conclusion that just maybe we have overdone it a bit.

It seems to me that this season we are going for one last attempt to see if we can make the theory work. We've tried mass rotation before and it appears not to have been overly beneficial (although somebody will point out the record points total season before last no doubt) and this season we are going about it slightly differently. We are mass rotating in everything other than the league, in which we are just rotating on the high side of normally. I'm afraid that this new experiment is also doomed to fail, as I don't think it's possible to average changing in excess of half the team every single game and still play with the maximum amount of fluency. I think it's absolutely impossible, a suicidal policy and in my view we have almost proved it to be so already this season.

My hope is that once Rafa has realised that it won't work, he'll change tack (there's a distinct possibility bordering on probability in my view that this may already have happened). Hopefully then, we'll get to see how good the team really is.

Remember, I'm not asking for the same team in every single game, I'm not saying we can't cope with any rotation whatsoever, and I'm not saying we don't take into any account in any way shape or form how the opposition set up. All I am asking for, and I think many others are asking the same, is that we give the team a chance to gel. We don't need to make six and seven changes every single game so lets not do it. Use the Carling Cup to feck about in, and in the other games go with somewhere very close to your team you started the last game with. It's about to happen I think.

Looking at the schedule for the rest of the month, Mick, I'm not so sure that you'll get your wish.  Consider that we have a derby on Saturday straight off another international break.  We all now how vital it will be to supporters to have a strong showing against the cross-town rivals and to get our season back on track, so I expect that Rafa may gamble a little bit with the fitness of his stars and play close to his best side.  But, then we have a significant midweek trip to Istanbul before next weekend's clash with Arsenal at Anfield.  Given the physical nature of the derby and its proximity to the international break, the significant toll the travel to Turkey and the match itself will have and the need to have strong team ready for Arsenal, I would be very surprised if Rafa didn't make at least 5-6 changes for the Besiktas match and hope for the best.

[Bad Bob]

lol i can't believe this post is still up.

i have been away for a while but notice a couple people is ver angry with me.

strangely they have not said why  but apparently its me thats thick.

i would like to the  opportunity to explore the reasons.

or should just post some pointless insults without actually having the ability to communicate why i'm unhappy.

How's about you AND EVERYONE ELSE AROUND HERE just stick to talking footy and spare everyone the petty insults and name-calling.  If you must vent your spleen, do it via PM and leave the thread for those that actually want to have a civil debate. Capisce? 

[jeff capes]

if you look at my post all it says is i want owen back

theres is not even a hint of insult at another forum member.

the insults was thrown at me but unexplained.

[Wilhelmsson]

Wilhelmsson mate... I'm sorry to say that I will not go to the extent of proving you wrong. I believe and am serious about what I just posted and I believe I've explained why. And if you're observing the team selections abit more properly you will understand the pattern I'm talking about.

Perhaps you should explain a bit about how you got to that stat of 70 odd changes in just 13 games. Don't get me wrong... I'm not saying those stats are wrong or anything (not yet)... but I do suspect that those stats are taken out of context and are from people that I just mentioned, overzealous "pundits" making a meal out of rotation because it's the fashionable thing to do (precisely those that I'm bored of hearing from)... If it's a stat that you personally researched, then fair enough... but do explain a bit about how you got to that conclusion or how you agreed to that conlcusion instead of plucking it from a secondary source and tossing it around like a weapon.

I know what the point you’re making and it’s true to a certain extent, but the impression I was given from reading your post suggests that a large proportion of rotation is from the LW/CF positions.

This is true to a certain degree, but Reina has been rotated for a carling cup match, there have been changes in the mid week matches in various positions, so whilst I accept there has been rotation in the LW/CF positions (more than I like, I am still yet to be convinced this is a stone, cold fact).

I’ve calculated it for myself and I am still off of the mark, Rafa has made a total of 81 changes and if you take out the players who were suffering from fatigue, suspension or injury, there is still a high percentage. I believe almost sixty percent of Rafa changes have been tactical and not through injury, suspension or fatigue.

That is still a high percentage in just thirteen matches; it’s an alarming fact and has subsequently highlighted the very fine points of rotation, whilst marring it with flaws of the rotation system.

excellent stats bob and thanks alot... I didn't see that thread before.

so here is how the stats look like...

58 changes from last match in 13 games...4.4 changes per game

17 league match changes in 8 games... 2.1 changes per league game...

well I guess my empirical study of saying rafa mostly rotates the second striker, LW for the league and more for other competition is not far off Wilhelmsson...

I do think that overall rafa rotates a bit too much.. given the first line of stats (and this could mean he's giving far more priority to the league)... but for the league his rotations are sensible IMO and the reason for the team's lacklustre performance should not fall solely on rotation... that is all I wanna say...

Bob has indeed provided good and wholesome information which only adds to my point that wholesale rotation is becoming rather similar to the strange case of Dr. Jekyll and Mr Hyde. The league rotations on paper do not seem bad, but subsequently wholesale changes between various competitions has upset the flow and balance of the team or as BMick likes to say, the ‘rhythm’ of the team.

If Rafa is going to continue rotating at the rate in which he does, then he needs a steady mix of pragmatism and common sense.

If a manager is making on average 2.1 changes on the Sunday and then 4.4 changes on the Wednesday and another 2.1 a week later, then that’s a total of 8.6 changes in a week.

Effectively Rafa is ripping up a large proportion of the team and changing it completely. I’ll grant him the defence that there have been some injuries in the camp, but even when taking such inevitable happenings into account, there is still a large percentage of change. The fact is for every two players Rafa rotates in the league, he rotates another four in various competitions.

Whilst I accept that rotation is not the root cause of the loss of form and with it confidence to win matches, it is a factor and I’d say it’s a trigger factor of some kind or another.

The players need to feel settled and it’s hard to settle when you are constantly rotated. Sure the players need a kick up the Jacksey for not pulling their weight, rotation can’t be lending them any favours either.

Ultimately I have come to the conclusion that Rafa needs to be heavier handed with his players, if they do not pull their weight then these players need to be warned, if a warning doesn’t register, then the bench will, but Rafa needs to steady the ship, the season is young, a few matches of playing a combination of the same players I believe will help get the team back on the track.

The aim is to secure as many points as possible in earlier and middle part of the season, making sure there is a comfortable distant between #1 and #2 and then when the players start feeling fatigue is the time to make such changes.

May I just suggest that I am not condoning the ‘play your best eleven week in week out’ I’m simply suggesting that Rafa should calm down with wholesale changes and steady the ship and once it is steady and back on course, keep the ship sailing ahead, instead of lumping all the coal in at once and finding out, there is none left and subsequently, the ship runs out of fuel and steam to power it along.

I’m sorry for such a long post, if you do not read it, I completely understand and I’d like to say sorry in advance for any grammar mistakes and spelling errors, I am feeling rather poorly as of late).

[Bad Bob]

Back to the subject of finding and maintaining the team's rhythm for a moment, it strikes me that if this is something that is threatened by chopping and changing the team from (midweek) cup matches to (weekend) league matches, then it surely is something that is also threatened by these international breaks.  Yet, one of my big frustrations surrounding the reaction to the Portsmouth match was the number of people downplaying the fact that that game came right on the heels of an international break.  In point of fact, Rafa took a lot of heat for not playing certain players, regardless of the strong probability that said players were some way short of peak fitness and match preparedness (two factors that would have hindered the team's ability to re-establish the rhythm it had enjoyed against Derby).

Given that we are coming to the end of a second international break I hope that some people won't be as quick to dismiss the toll this past fortnight has taken on our lads in the event of another lacklustre performance on Saturday lunchtime.  It bears remembering that, once again, our best players have been scattered to the four winds (Mascherano was playing in Maracaibo, Venezuela yesterday, FFS!) and, in many cases, have been pulling out all of the stops to try and help their countries qualify.  Exactly how much will be left in the tank when they take to the pitch on Saturday?  More pointedly, exactly how much scorn will be heaped on them and Rafa if they somehow aren't able to rise to the occasion and get a result?

[Bad Bob]

if you look at my post all it says is i want owen back

theres is not even a hint of insult at another forum member.

the insults was thrown at me but unexplained.

No you didn't insult anyone but I thought I'd take your threat to do so as an occasion to tell everyone to cool it with the insults.

As for responding to your original post...in a nutshell, I think many people thought that your valuation of Fowler in relation to Owen was, shall we say, peculiar. 

[account deleted by request]

Back to the subject of finding and maintaining the team's rhythm for a moment, it strikes me that if this is something that is threatened by chopping and changing the team from (midweek) cup matches to (weekend) league matches, then it surely is something that is also threatened by these international breaks.  Yet, one of my big frustrations surrounding the reaction to the Portsmouth match was the number of people downplaying the fact that that game came right on the heels of an international break.  In point of fact, Rafa took a lot of heat for not playing certain players, regardless of the strong probability that said players were some way short of peak fitness and match preparedness (two factors that would have hindered the team's ability to re-establish the rhythm it had enjoyed against Derby).

Given that we are coming to the end of a second international break I hope that some people won't be as quick to dismiss the toll this past fortnight has taken on our lads in the event of another lacklustre performance on Saturday lunchtime.  It bears remembering that, once again, our best players have been scattered to the four winds (Mascherano was playing in Maracaibo, Venezuela yesterday, FFS!) and, in many cases, have been pulling out all of the stops to try and help their countries qualify.  Exactly how much will be left in the tank when they take to the pitch on Saturday?  More pointedly, exactly how much scorn will be heaped on them and Rafa if they somehow aren't able to rise to the occasion and get a result?

I understand what you are trying to say Bob but don't other teams have players away on international duty as well? The mancs have just as many internationals as we do (give or take) yet they manage to put out a strong team, or are our players more delicate flowers that need careful tending?

On a side note Van Persie is out for four weeks and will miss our clash with Arsenal.

[Bad Bob]

Back to the subject of finding and maintaining the team's rhythm for a moment, it strikes me that if this is something that is threatened by chopping and changing the team from (midweek) cup matches to (weekend) league matches, then it surely is something that is also threatened by these international breaks.  Yet, one of my big frustrations surrounding the reaction to the Portsmouth match was the number of people downplaying the fact that that game came right on the heels of an international break.  In point of fact, Rafa took a lot of heat for not playing certain players, regardless of the strong probability that said players were some way short of peak fitness and match preparedness (two factors that would have hindered the team's ability to re-establish the rhythm it had enjoyed against Derby).

Given that we are coming to the end of a second international break I hope that some people won't be as quick to dismiss the toll this past fortnight has taken on our lads in the event of another lacklustre performance on Saturday lunchtime.  It bears remembering that, once again, our best players have been scattered to the four winds (Mascherano was playing in Maracaibo, Venezuela yesterday, FFS!) and, in many cases, have been pulling out all of the stops to try and help their countries qualify.  Exactly how much will be left in the tank when they take to the pitch on Saturday?  More pointedly, exactly how much scorn will be heaped on them and Rafa if they somehow aren't able to rise to the occasion and get a result?

I understand what you are trying to say Bob but don't other teams have players away on international duty as well? The mancs have just as many internationals as we do (give or take) yet they manage to put out a strong team, or are our players more delicate flowers that need careful tending?

On a side note Van Persie is out for four weeks and will miss our clash with Arsenal.

Saint, here's the Mancs' lineup against Everton the day we played Portsmouth:

(G) Edwin Van der Sar
(D) Wes Brown
(D) Patrice Evra
(D) Rio Ferdinand
(D) Mikael Silvestre
(D) Nemanja Vidic
(M) Michael Carrick
(M) Ryan Giggs
(M) Cristiano Ronaldo
(M) Paul Scholes
(S) Carlos Tevez

Now, I can't verify this at the moment (I'm out the door in a minute) but a quick look tells me that there are not nearly as many active internationals on that list as you might think.  Scholes and Giggs have retired.  Tevez didn't travel to Australia, I don't think.  Neither Carrick nor Brown played for England, nor did Silvestre or Evra for France.  That leaves Van Der Sar, Ferdinand, Vidic (who, if memory serves, only played one of two international matches for Serbia that break) and Ronaldo as the only players who had both traveled and played in the preceeding international matches. 

Nonetheless, they too played like rubbish that day until Vidic headed one in late on.  I think I've still got a point here.

*Add on.

Here's Chelsea's team on the same day (Sept. 15th), which only managed a 0-0 draw against Blackburn at Stamford Bridge.  Note  the likes of Sidwell, Kalou, Essien, Alex and Belletti in that line-up...players who had no international obligations.  Would some of them have gotten a game otherwise?

1 Petr Cech (G) (G)
33 Alex (D)
35 Juliano Belletti (D)
3 Ashley Cole (D)
26 John Terry (D)
10 Joe Cole (M) (M)
5 Michael Essien (M) (M)
9 Steve Sidwell (M) (M)
24 Shaun Wright-Phillips (M)
21 Salomon Kalou (S)
7 Andriy Shevchenko (S)

And here's Arsenal from the same day (they won 3-1 over Spurs).  Note that only Fabregas, Hleb and RVP would have had international commitments:

G) Manuel Almunia 24
(D) Gael Clichy 22
(D) Bacary Sagna 3
(D) Kolo Toure 5
(M) Gilberto Silva 19
(M) Vassiriki Diaby 2
(M) Francesc Fabregas 4
(M) Mathieu Flamini 16
(M) Alexander Hleb 13
(S) Emmanuel Adebayor 25
(S) Robin Van Persie

[Sabre]

Back to the subject of finding and maintaining the team's rhythm for a moment, it strikes me that if this is something that is threatened by chopping and changing the team from (midweek) cup matches to (weekend) league matches, then it surely is something that is also threatened by these international breaks.  Yet, one of my big frustrations surrounding the reaction to the Portsmouth match was the number of people downplaying the fact that that game came right on the heels of an international break.  In point of fact, Rafa took a lot of heat for not playing certain players, regardless of the strong probability that said players were some way short of peak fitness and match preparedness (two factors that would have hindered the team's ability to re-establish the rhythm it had enjoyed against Derby).

Given that we are coming to the end of a second international break I hope that some people won't be as quick to dismiss the toll this past fortnight has taken on our lads in the event of another lacklustre performance on Saturday lunchtime.  It bears remembering that, once again, our best players have been scattered to the four winds (Mascherano was playing in Maracaibo, Venezuela yesterday, FFS!) and, in many cases, have been pulling out all of the stops to try and help their countries qualify.  Exactly how much will be left in the tank when they take to the pitch on Saturday?  More pointedly, exactly how much scorn will be heaped on them and Rafa if they somehow aren't able to rise to the occasion and get a result?

A lot. I'm very worried before this derby. In derbies the "favourites" are not that favourites, and anything can happen. I'm worried because if we win, we'll see euphoria, if we don't win, many teams are in a few points and we can go lower than 4th, which will carry hysteria, so, no matter how much you want to explain the effect of international games, after a not good derby people won't hear, and will be very angry.

As for the points you make about playing in Maracaibo, Venezuela, it does affect the players, for so many reasons.

1) Jet lag, lack of sleep
2) Irregular pitches (ankles suffer), high grass slow pitches (Gato busta an excellent poster we have in peru could talk about this)
3) You don't train with your team

Not to mention when you go to Bolivia and you make your body play at 2000 m of height, your blood goes mad for some days. Denying this things have an effect is wrong, IMHO.


My point is that this internationals are really a pain in the árse.

*But* it's true all the great teams have these problems, some teams will lose a lot of internationals in Africa, some of them will be attacked as Kanoute was in Mali (another player went to the hospital), and it's true that it's not more a problem for us.

But as I've said, after not a good derby, we can't expect people hearing those reasons, and, for what is worth, I understand those passionate feelings, a derby is a derby.