Liverpool FC Forum

by **112-1077774096** » Thu Oct 18, 2007 6:51 am

The_Rock wrote:
peewee wrote:wow, some people on here seem to think they know better than people who have gone the game since before they were even born, and they don't even go the games now. but they think their opinion is better than others, unbelievable.

I am still amazed that people doubt the 'doom mongers' when they can see for themselves, in black and white how far away we were last season from the top two, and how we have stumbled this season already.

whatever the reasons for this (and its been done to death already) those facts remain intact, we haven't been able to do it, and mick i am with you, i think we have had a strong enough team to win it but lackluster performances and mystifying decisions from the manager have blown it.

and again as with other posters who have this opinion, I am not calling for rafas head, simply calling for him to start using it

Dude....lets see how we perform against eversh1t..... I think its no point as this argument will never end. BTW i am in your anti-rotation bandwagon.....

I think rafa has finally learnt his lesson (as he has had been bashed from every angle by the press, ex-players and fans)...We should see the strongest possible team against eversh1t and the rest of the league games....

Walk on......

Eversh1t 0 - LFC 3 (Crouch, Riise and Gerrard).....

lets hope so mate

as for the bandwagon I am merely the navigator, bigmick is the driver and the wagon owner

by **ConnO'var** » Thu Oct 18, 2007 8:47 am

peewee wrote:
The_Rock wrote:
peewee wrote:wow, some people on here seem to think they know better than people who have gone the game since before they were even born, and they don't even go the games now. but they think their opinion is better than others, unbelievable.

I am still amazed that people doubt the 'doom mongers' when they can see for themselves, in black and white how far away we were last season from the top two, and how we have stumbled this season already.

whatever the reasons for this (and its been done to death already) those facts remain intact, we haven't been able to do it, and mick i am with you, i think we have had a strong enough team to win it but lackluster performances and mystifying decisions from the manager have blown it.

and again as with other posters who have this opinion, I am not calling for rafas head, simply calling for him to start using it

Dude....lets see how we perform against eversh1t..... I think its no point as this argument will never end. BTW i am in your anti-rotation bandwagon.....

I think rafa has finally learnt his lesson (as he has had been bashed from every angle by the press, ex-players and fans)...We should see the strongest possible team against eversh1t and the rest of the league games....

Walk on......

Eversh1t 0 - LFC 3 (Crouch, Riise and Gerrard).....

lets hope so mate

as for the bandwagon I am merely the navigator, bigmick is the driver and the wagon owner

And I am another passenger....

by **66-1112520797** » Thu Oct 18, 2007 9:00 am

ConnO'var wrote:
peewee wrote:
The_Rock wrote:
peewee wrote:wow, some people on here seem to think they know better than people who have gone the game since before they were even born, and they don't even go the games now. but they think their opinion is better than others, unbelievable.

I am still amazed that people doubt the 'doom mongers' when they can see for themselves, in black and white how far away we were last season from the top two, and how we have stumbled this season already.

whatever the reasons for this (and its been done to death already) those facts remain intact, we haven't been able to do it, and mick i am with you, i think we have had a strong enough team to win it but lackluster performances and mystifying decisions from the manager have blown it.

and again as with other posters who have this opinion, I am not calling for rafas head, simply calling for him to start using it

Dude....lets see how we perform against eversh1t..... I think its no point as this argument will never end. BTW i am in your anti-rotation bandwagon.....

I think rafa has finally learnt his lesson (as he has had been bashed from every angle by the press, ex-players and fans)...We should see the strongest possible team against eversh1t and the rest of the league games....

Walk on......

Eversh1t 0 - LFC 3 (Crouch, Riise and Gerrard).....

lets hope so mate

as for the bandwagon I am merely the navigator, bigmick is the driver and the wagon owner

And I am another passenger....

And I'm the on board mechanic.

( That keeps the wagon rolling smoothly )

by **112-1077774096** » Thu Oct 18, 2007 9:07 am

and we keep on picking up passengers as we go

by **zarababe** » Thu Oct 18, 2007 9:21 am

red37 wrote:
zarababe wrote:I seek refuge in here for now for the doom merchants prevail in too many places for now! I don't wnat to read the self righteous drivel and opinions of others on here - some balanced views some down right ****, whoc frankly don't see it like I do - bring on Paul Tompkins I say we need rationalisation of a situation being blown out of proportions.

Been blowing for 17 years and counting...But you know, there is a better way to make your point. One that includes and embraces the inherently differing opinions of everybody, and not just those who you are dismissing as "not on your wavelength" - That sounds terribly vain.

vain who meeee :Oo:

Lol I see how that may sound having reading it again - and of course everyone should have their own view on this - but at this moment I have heard every angle of both sides and well - this thread is that haven - or was should I say. Its become exhaustive.

As for Paul Tompkins 'boolocks' or not Mick, it's a view point to be considered in the scheme of things, as is wait and see!

Where we have waited 17 years - having the right man now and patience won't kill us ! That is whether we go to the games or not.

I'm Passenger no .. whatever you lot are on !

by **112-1077774096** » Thu Oct 18, 2007 9:25 am

yeah lets wait for ever on the off chance that man utd and chelsea and arsenal suddenly become really cr@p to give us a chance

by **account deleted by request** » Thu Oct 18, 2007 9:36 am

Much as I would like to join you band of reprobates, I still believe sensible rotation is necessary if we are to compete in more than one competition and also have players who represent their countries. I think we had a team good enough to challenge if not actually win the league in the last couple of seasons but it was the players as much if not more than the rotation that cost us.

I also think that Rafa has made a few big errors when it came to buying players that have cost us dearly both in time lost, and points. Gaps that should have been filled either wern't or the wrong type of player was brought in. We bought too many average squad players and not enough first teamers.

Our best players have lost form at vital parts of the seasons (usually the begining)and have performed no-where near their best when we needed them most.

Rotation has cost us points but its the players that have cost us titles.

by **112-1077774096** » Thu Oct 18, 2007 9:56 am

s@int wrote:Rotation has cost us points but its the players that have cost us titles.

doesn't that go hand in hand mate, i don't understand what you are getting at here. I think you are saying the players failure to kill games off has cost us titles, but i think the points lost against teams we shouldn't have lost points against is a bigger factor. i personally think those dropped points have come from unfamiliarity in the ranks mate and putting in players who struggle to adapt to different players around them.

as an example saint, every time the midfield is rotated, well.... lets explain it this way, lets say gerrard plays every game and the other position is rotated between momo, xabi and mash. every week gerrard is not only playing with a different player, but he is also playing with a different type of player, a player who behaves differently and has different attributes, this doesn't allow him to settle and be confident in the player around him and means every week he also has to change his own game.

i agree with dropping players for injury and dropping players who play poorly, i don't agree with dropping players just or the sake of it, i really do not see the plus points ( i know the old "we will be fitter at the end of the season, but then all I can see it fit to battle for 4th place again because we have dropped so far behind when we have rested players earlier when they are not even tired)

by **66-1112520797** » Thu Oct 18, 2007 10:09 am

I'm Passenger no .. whatever you lot are on !

Boring !

I thought the Argies were more exciting than that.

by **account deleted by request** » Thu Oct 18, 2007 10:38 am

peewee wrote:
s@int wrote:Rotation has cost us points but its the players that have cost us titles.

doesn't that go hand in hand mate, i don't understand what you are getting at here. I think you are saying the players failure to kill games off has cost us titles, but i think the points lost against teams we shouldn't have lost points against is a bigger factor. i personally think those dropped points have come from unfamiliarity in the ranks mate and putting in players who struggle to adapt to different players around them.

as an example saint, every time the midfield is rotated, well.... lets explain it this way, lets say gerrard plays every game and the other position is rotated between momo, xabi and mash. every week gerrard is not only playing with a different player, but he is also playing with a different type of player, a player who behaves differently and has different attributes, this doesn't allow him to settle and be confident in the player around him and means every week he also has to change his own game.

i agree with dropping players for injury and dropping players who play poorly, i don't agree with dropping players just or the sake of it, i really do not see the plus points ( i know the old "we will be fitter at the end of the season, but then all I can see it fit to battle for 4th place again because we have dropped so far behind when we have rested players earlier when they are not even tired)

You can argue that we lost a few points early on through rotation only to get them back (and more ) later on in the season when other teams start to tire.

If you have'nt bought the right player there is no upside. You either don't play them and gain no benefit, or you play them and they let you down. It doesn't matter how fit you are, if your not good enough, or playing a role you arn't suited to.

Yes Rafa gets shut quick when he realises they are cr@p, but by that time another season has gone by.

Where I have doubts about rotation is not the games in which we use sensible rotation and maybe drop a couple of points, its the effect it seems to have on players form. We seem to get a lot of key players losing form for long periods rather than just for the odd couple of games.

I don't think Rafa drops players just for the sake of it mate, he has his reasons. We may not see them, but he's not just dropping players for nothing. Maybe he thinks to technically or looks to future games too much, but I don't believe he doesn't have a reason.

The problem as I see it is the players he brings in with notable exceptions arn't, or haven't been up to it. Kuyt and Crouch have hardly scored this season. Hyypia has started to look as if his best days are behind him, and because we have no option he has had to play 2 games a week, which can't help him.

I understand what you are saying about players not only having to adapt to different formations, tactical plans and positions, but also to different partners. Thats why they train and practise every week mate.

by **112-1077774096** » Thu Oct 18, 2007 10:50 am

wouldn't it be nice to not need to get those points back mate, wouldn't it be nice of those points later in the season were a bonus?

and maybe he does have reasons for dropping players, but if that reason is so they are fresh later in the season then i don't see that as good reason, we did it last season and still looked knackered in athens, to me its a pointless exercise mate, i just don't understand the logic in dropping points now just to try and win points later, it doesn't make sense, points are points mate whenever they come.

with regards to the players training and practicing, yes they do but that is very different to actual match conditions, the fact remains that the players look like strangers a lot of the time and i attribute this to rotation mate and not know if your playing or who you will be playing agaisnt on a weekly basis.

by **maguskwt** » Thu Oct 18, 2007 10:52 am

peewee wrote:
s@int wrote:Rotation has cost us points but its the players that have cost us titles.

doesn't that go hand in hand mate, i don't understand what you are getting at here. I think you are saying the players failure to kill games off has cost us titles, but i think the points lost against teams we shouldn't have lost points against is a bigger factor. i personally think those dropped points have come from unfamiliarity in the ranks mate and putting in players who struggle to adapt to different players around them.

as an example saint, every time the midfield is rotated, well.... lets explain it this way, lets say gerrard plays every game and the other position is rotated between momo, xabi and mash. every week gerrard is not only playing with a different player, but he is also playing with a different type of player, a player who behaves differently and has different attributes, this doesn't allow him to settle and be confident in the player around him and means every week he also has to change his own game.

i agree with dropping players for injury and dropping players who play poorly, i don't agree with dropping players just or the sake of it, i really do not see the plus points ( i know the old "we will be fitter at the end of the season, but then all I can see it fit to battle for 4th place again because we have dropped so far behind when we have rested players earlier when they are not even tired)

rotation is not the be-all and end-all cause of our bad performances and that is where I feel alot of ppl are too easily implying... not to mention the so-called pundits on tv.

the team under houllier dished out lacklustre and disjointed performances. did he rotate? no.

by **112-1077774096** » Thu Oct 18, 2007 10:53 am

maguskwt wrote:
peewee wrote:
s@int wrote:Rotation has cost us points but its the players that have cost us titles.

doesn't that go hand in hand mate, i don't understand what you are getting at here. I think you are saying the players failure to kill games off has cost us titles, but i think the points lost against teams we shouldn't have lost points against is a bigger factor. i personally think those dropped points have come from unfamiliarity in the ranks mate and putting in players who struggle to adapt to different players around them.

as an example saint, every time the midfield is rotated, well.... lets explain it this way, lets say gerrard plays every game and the other position is rotated between momo, xabi and mash. every week gerrard is not only playing with a different player, but he is also playing with a different type of player, a player who behaves differently and has different attributes, this doesn't allow him to settle and be confident in the player around him and means every week he also has to change his own game.

i agree with dropping players for injury and dropping players who play poorly, i don't agree with dropping players just or the sake of it, i really do not see the plus points ( i know the old "we will be fitter at the end of the season, but then all I can see it fit to battle for 4th place again because we have dropped so far behind when we have rested players earlier when they are not even tired)

rotation is not the be-all and end-all cause of our bad performances and that is where I feel alot of ppl are too easily implying... not to mention the so-called pundits on tv.

the team under houllier dished out lacklustre and disjointed performances. did he rotate? no.

he did to an extent added to the fact he played many players out of position

by **bigmick** » Thu Oct 18, 2007 10:59 am

This "train and practice" one is a baffling one for me though Saint. I know you've got more sense than to suggest very much is going on in training once the season is fully underway. There'll be a few five a sides, some working on set-pieces, some pattern of play stuff, some videos, plenty of gym work, some individual coaching etc etc but I'd be very surprised if there are any full-scale matches on full sized pitches, and if anybody was to claim that there was anything whatsoever which resembled a full-blown competitive match, I'd be staggered.

We're all familiar with blokes who come back from long term injuries, talking about "well it's all very well being up to it in training but you have to play matches to get match fit". What I think they meant by this was that you needed to play, to get sharp, to get accustomed to the rhythm of the team, the pace of the game, to anticipate what your teammates are going to do in a given moment. Now I know that some Rafa devotees would have us believe that many long held truisms are actually now merely the ramblings of long obsolete has-beens and maybe this is another. Just like it is seemingly a myth to suggest that Keegan and Toshack had an "understanding", a "telepathy" which was built up from playing together. As I've said before maybe Dalglish didn't actually sense when and where Rush was going to run, and the Welshman didn't anticipate the little through ball. Maybe it wasn't really a partnership built up over time, and maybe you could have rotated them for a couple of matches, stuck them back together and bingo!, they could read each other instantly.

I accept that sometimes your memory can play tricks on you, but those maybe's just don't hold true for me though.

by **account deleted by request** » Thu Oct 18, 2007 11:10 am

peewee wrote:wouldn't it be nice to not need to get those points back mate, wouldn't it be nice of those points later in the season were a bonus?

and maybe he does have reasons for dropping players, but if that reason is so they are fresh later in the season then i don't see that as good reason, we did it last season and still looked knackered in athens, to me its a pointless exercise mate, i just don't understand the logic in dropping points now just to try and win points later, it doesn't make sense, points are points mate whenever they come.

with regards to the players training and practicing, yes they do but that is very different to actual match conditions, the fact remains that the players look like strangers a lot of the time and i attribute this to rotation mate and not know if your playing or who you will be playing agaisnt on a weekly basis.

I agree mate it would be nice to pick up the points , and I am pretty sure when Rafa picks the team he expects to get those points. Most teams he picks are good enough to get the job done. Portsmouth, Birmingham etc we were all disapointed that Gerrard and Torres didn't play from the start, but the teams he put out were good enough to win those games. That they didn't is down to the players.

I think he made a mistake not playing them but if I am honest I also think we should have won anyway.

Would playing Gerrard have made much of a difference anyway. People are saying drop him or move him out to the wing already!

If Gerrard gets injured is that it ? Our season is over? Torres hits a bad patch, should we just pack up and forget about football. We should have a team that is capable of beating Birmingham without either of our star players.

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