Liverpool FC Forum

[account deleted by request]

Good post maguskwt, obviously there are a few things you say that I don't agree with

Pennant is a true winger and he's doing a good job (more effective than Gerrard as a winger IMO)

Gerrard scored 20+ goals and was Player of the Season playing right wing, and Pennant is more effective? Gerrard had one of his best ever seasons (one reason why we were a better balanced team)
Argue that Gerrard is better played in the centre but don't say Pennant is better than Gerrard was on the right mate.

gasp... I even forgot to talk about Cisse

Gerrard and Cisse (the one you almost forgot)scored over 40 goals between them, so even though Cisse wasn't by any stretch of the imagination the answer to our prayers, he got goals and some important ones too.

Talking about scorers of important goals , dont forget Garcia, he may have been a frustrating ballwaster but he knew where the net was and usually found it.

some would say rafa's team selection (or gasp... rotation

Don't forget Rafa rotated that season as well mate, (every game)

As I said before the only real improvements Rafa has made to the TEAM (not squad strengthening) is Torres and maybe Mascherano. Kuyt works hard but still needs to prove he can provide a goal threat, Crouch has taken 3 steps back from where he was 2 years ago.Is Veronin better than Fowler was for that season?

Agger I think will be a great defender but he is not as good yet as Hyypia was a couple of years ago.(my opinion)

Don't forget Sissoko was awesome that season as well, before his injuries the following year.

Yes we have more options in the squad now, don't disagree with you at all on that, but that in itself can cause more problems.........as we all know, Rafa loves to rotate.
 
If you think Riise, Aurelio, Leto etc are better than Kewell was that season, you must have a short memory.

As I said, we had a stronger better balanced TEAM 2 years ago , Gerrard was playing out of his skin as well which also helped more than a little. Maybe the return of Kewell or a masterstroke by Rafa will change things, maybe Gerrard will become Captain incredible again, or Kuyt find his shooting boots, but I don't think even that would hide the fact we still need to strengthen the Team. 

Put another way.......stick Torres in the team from two years ago and I think we would have won the league, we still have to see if this team can do it with Torres.(I still think we can)

[No Mark]

last two pages of this thread.

I agree wholeheartedly with the comments reguarding the team of the 2005/06 season. Gerrard, Sissoko, Alonso, Kewell was an awesome midfield and with Gerrard on the right and Kewell on the left we had real balance between defence and attack. Although they are not the fastest and typical wingers, they were great footballers with great ability and because of this, we hardly ever lost the ball in midfield, which in turn led us to dominate most games.

Most midfielders lose the ball on the wings, we didn't. We dominated across the entire middle of the park and we looked a proper footballing team. My only criticism is that season, we didn't have trouble creating chances, we had trouble scoring them. If you remember we won a lot of games 1 - 0, and if you think back, remember how often you cursed Crouch or Morientes for missing sitters? When Fowler returned, he operated the striker role with a lot more maturity and goal scoring prowess and the run in to the end of the season, we were a joy to watch. Thats why I wholeheartedly agree with Saints comments about us winning the league that year if Torres was on the payroll.

Last season was a significant step back in terms of team development. Yes, we reached the Champions League Final (again!!) and yes, we finished 3rd again, but the team was a lot less assured that year and Rafa made some pretty dire mistakes in the transfer market with the signings of Gonzalez, Bellamy, Pennant and dare I say it, Dirk Kuyt? 

I'm not knocking Kuyt totally. He's a hardworking, run himself into the ground, never give up type of player that is useful at any club. However last year after the demotion of Fowler, Cisse and Morientes being run out of town, we needed a proper goalscoring forward, and Kuyt, sadly will never get 20 + league goals in England. We needed Torres ( or Anelka, or Owen, or Eto'o, or Ruud, or (whisper it quietly - Andrew Johnson) ) that summer but unfortunately it didn't quite happen.

I am happy however with start we made this year, and more importantly the transfers that Rafa masterminded in the summer. He got rid of the players who he made mistakes with - Gonzalez, Bellamy, etc. And he brought in top quality players in Maschereno(jan I know), Torres and Babel. Plus a few tasty squad additions in Yossi and Voronin and wtih what we recouped, he balanced the books exceptionally well.

Personally, I'd like to see Rafa revert to his tried and tested method of the 4-5-1 of previous seasons, some say its too negative, but it depends on how attacking we are, it can easliy be interpreted as 4-3-3. At present, Torres is are onyl striker who looks like he means business and because of his 6 ft frame and uncanny ability to hold players off (unusual for a Spaniard), I feel he can fufill the lone striker role he often played at Madrid. I know he has been in the papers saying how he prefers the 4-4-2 because he doesn't have to come looking for the ball like at Athletico, but with all due respect, he wouldn't have to come anywhere with Gerrard, Alonso and Yossi pulling the strings. I'd go with Gerrard on the right(shock horror!?!?), Riise on the left (switched with babel) and Alonso and Maschereno in the middle with Yossi as the link up man in the Attacking midfielder role. I think Yossi is a very clever little player but Rafa is not getting anywhere near his best out of him in the right or left channels. The attacking midfield role is tailor made for Yossi with his deft touch and perfect throughballs.


However Rafa's the boss and I bet we all have different idea's.


I don't know exactly whats going wrong at the moment. Rotation, Pako leaving and the players underperforming could all be contributing factors, however I feel we are heading in the correct direction under Rafa but I feel because of his controversial methods (rotation etc) he comes in for unnecessary and unfair criticism most of the time. He's done exceptionally well in his short time here, but as most of us know, Liverpool fans demand the best. I have no doubt thats what he will deliever. Eventually.

[66-1112520797]

I agree wholeheartedly with the comments reguarding the team of the 2005/06 season.

I honestly struggle to remember the team we played the season  before last and the games we played and performed. Bad memory on my part.

I barely remember last season and the way we played and performed, but I do remember our form didnt pick up until Gerrard was moved to the center. The feeling around here about Gerrards position is pretty split. For me he is the best central midfielder in England bar none.

I dont want to drag Gerrards 'best position' up again, but I read that article Leon posted up written about how Gerrard lacks discipline, to be a true central midfielder ... I think thats utter tosh, infact I think his discipline in that role has steadily improved over the last year and a half. At the moment the lad has had a dip in form, and thats all thats wrong with him at the moment.

Note: Saint, I think your correct in saying that Gerrard is more effective than Pennant on the right. Was it 23 goals ? Thats end product ! Something I'm afraid Pennant will never have, which is a shame because thats the one aspect of Jermaine's game that would make him a great player.

That said still, I'd still stick with Pennant on the wing. He is a jinky little player and still has his uses and along with Arbeloa has been one of our better performers this season, albeit not great.

Rafa has been critisised alot around here lately IMO rightly so, questions had to be asked, and yet to be answered on the pitch as of late. One thing I think may help the team perform better and the man himself, is to give Babel a shot upfront with Torres. Go back to making the midfield relatively solid until at least Kewell comes back, play Aurelio left mid and let the young Dutchman partner Torres upfront for a few games. I think there is more to see in Babel and in time I'm hoping he'll explode into the player he expects to be. I think with his pace, and directness and the ever impressive Nando, they'll frighten many defences over the season.

I've never had the confidence in Kuyt, to rely upon him game after game to win us games. But as I've been told before, 'he's not on the pitch to do that'? Huh okay then. Crouch hasnt even got a look in but he'd be my 1st choice after Babel and Torres, as he is completey different to the first pairing, and would offer us another dimension and then there's Voronin who IMO seems average on the whole, looks good in some games, and non-existant in others.

I'm just hoping this international break has the apparently opposite effect on the players when they group back up this time around.

[maguskwt]

well saint... if you're gonna give me that 23-goal-gerrard stat (same way rafa did)... then I've got very little chance to refute that...   

in all honesty though I think that Gerrard would have scored just as many that season whether he played central midfield or right wing... it was his break out season so to say which started with the previous season and the inspiring performance in istanbul.

For wingers though, I don't really rate them on the goals alone even though I do admit that it's end product. There are wingers that score alot of goals like christiano ronaldo and there are those that just provide for others to score... I have to agree that if pennant can chip in with some goals then he would be really great but as long as he's playing his guts out and providing assists, penetration and opportunities for others (like in the first few games this season) then I would be more than happy with him.

All in all I think that this team can be a very balanced team...even more than 2 seasons ago... but it still remains a potential... hopefully everything will click after the international break and we will able to push for the title all the way this season...

btw... why the did mclaren play gerrard for 90 mins when the points are already in the bag... 

[Lando_Griffin]

Remember "In Rafa we Trust"..............no....anyone, how fickle we suporters r. im the same its beco it means so much 2 us these r the times when i wish i was just a fan

I admit some of his decissions baffle me but he hasnt been helped by injuries either

carragher
Gerrard
Alonso
Agger
Torres (& these r are star players.....not bit parts)
& now Kuyt & Torres
Kewell (who lets not 4get is still a world class talent when he plays)

& were only in October

lets get behind the man whos gaVe so much 2 this club oVer 3 years

Yes lets all bury our heads in the sand and be happy clappy it will all magically work itself out, you'll see...

Wake up dude, Rafa is a stubborn and is no where near the genius most people believe, with the amount of money he has spent we should be a hell of a lot better.

"What Rafa has given to the club", oh has he not been collecting a big fecking pay check then, he's only doing his bloody job, he probably doesn't give a toss about Liverpool, he's just waiting for Real Madrid to really come asking and to lure them it's all about the champions league, how else do you explain Dudek!! 

Nope I'm fed up with Rafa now and no I'm not being fickle, I've been off with him for a long time now.

Imbecile.

[zarababe]

Remember "In Rafa we Trust"..............no....anyone, how fickle we suporters r. im the same its beco it means so much 2 us these r the times when i wish i was just a fan

I admit some of his decissions baffle me but he hasnt been helped by injuries either

carragher
Gerrard
Alonso
Agger
Torres (& these r are star players.....not bit parts)
& now Kuyt & Torres
Kewell (who lets not 4get is still a world class talent when he plays)

& were only in October

lets get behind the man whos gaVe so much 2 this club oVer 3 years

Yes lets all bury our heads in the sand and be happy clappy it will all magically work itself out, you'll see...

Wake up dude, Rafa is a stubborn and is no where near the genius most people believe, with the amount of money he has spent we should be a hell of a lot better.

"What Rafa has given to the club", oh has he not been collecting a big fecking pay check then, he's only doing his bloody job, he probably doesn't give a toss about Liverpool, he's just waiting for Real Madrid to really come asking and to lure them it's all about the champions league, how else do you explain Dudek!! 

Nope I'm fed up with Rafa now and no I'm not being fickle, I've been off with him for a long time now.

Imbecile.

Double embecile - where are these 'fans' carwling out from !

Sometimes this place feels alien - am I logged on to a Liverpool Supporters site or has all sense of reality been lost  Rafa Benitez: one of the most repected managers in the world - lives and breathes football and then theres this lot          

[Kharhaz]

Double embecile - where are these 'fans' carwling out from !

A lot of people on here are instantly judging new posters as sudden Liverpool fans. There are many people who have supported Liverpool all there life and have only just come across this website and therefore giving there views which may or may not agree with long term members. Lets not be so harsh on new members with an opinion.

[zarababe]

Oh so I am still logged on to a Liverpool FC site

[Emerald Red]

Double embecile - where are these 'fans' carwling out from !

A lot of people on here are instantly judging new posters as sudden Liverpool fans. There are many people who have supported Liverpool all there life and have only just come across this website and therefore giving there views which may or may not agree with long term members. Lets not be so harsh on new members with an opinion.

In my experience, new posters tend to get their opinions ignored because once their post count is looked at, they are deemed as newbies and not worth a p*ss yet.

[red37]

Rafa Benitez: one of the most repected managers in the world - lives and breathes football and then theres this lot   

Doesn't mean he calls everything right. Respect or not. He had to earn it by learning from making the odd poor decision along the way. People are wholly entitled to question his methods regardless of how well thought of he is when it goes pearshaped. Put it this way, he didn't just suddenly become this astute tactician overnight, there were plenty of these 'grey' periods from which, hopefully he appears sufficiently endowed with enough nouse to overturn. In any case he must have been suitably equipped in gaining so much of the credibility in the profession that he has done, by being able to identify mistakes and rectify them, and by and large, save for the obvious stubborn streak in him and the overfussy manner in which he affords the opposition a touch too much attention at the deficit to his own teams strengths. I believe on the whole he is on the right track at this particular club. One that so far, has equally served him as well as it has beaten him on certain occasions.  Takes time and all that...but to say he is beyond reproach based on his 'reputation' to date. I don't even think the fella himself would suggest he assumes a position upon that pedestal - just yet.

[zarababe]

No actually if you read what I 'wrote' in my sarcasm - it is about the way people are now doubting the bosses credentials - I don't look at post counts I read what ppl wrote and wondered which forum I'd ventured on.

The opening article of this thread sets the context - we need to see what happens before we pass further judgements.

[zarababe]

Rafa Benitez: one of the most repected managers in the world - lives and breathes football and then theres this lot   

Doesn't mean he calls everything right. Respect or not. He had to earn it by learning from making the odd poor decision along the way. People are wholly entitled to question his methods regardless of how well thought of he is when it goes pearshaped. Put it this way, he didn't just suddenly become this astute tactician overnight, there were plenty of these 'grey' periods from which, hopefully he appears sufficiently endowed with enough nouse to overturn. In any case he must have been suitably equipped in gaining so much of the credibility in the profession that he has done, by being able to identify mistakes and rectify them, and by and large, save for the obvious stubborn streak in him and the overfussy manner in which he affords the opposition a touch too much attention at the deficit to his own teams strengths. I believe on the whole he is on the right track at this particular club. One that so far, has equally served him as well as it has beaten him on certain occasions.  Takes time and all that...but to say he is beyond reproach based on his 'reputation' to date. I don't even think the fella himself would suggest he assumes a position upon that pedestal - just yet.

The context of this thread is clear - ther are plenty of other threads for hauling the boss down those pedestals - this thread has been a haven for some of us - I truly have wondered if this is a Liverpool forum -so scathing it has become - you don't need to read the press now its all over here too !

Read the title of the thread and understand some of us are willing to see how it turns out !

[Kharhaz]

The context of this thread is clear - ther are plenty of other threads for hauling the boss down those pedestals - this thread has been a haven for some of us - I truly have wondered if this is a Liverpool forum -so scathing it has become - you don't need to read the press now its all over here too !

Read the title of the thread and understand some of us are willing to see how it turns out !

I agree with that, I appreciate immensely what rafa has done for the club, I honestly didnt think id see Liverpool lift the European Cup in my lifetime and when we did it was the greatest feeling ive ever experienced and its because of rafa. Our recent failings is down to the players, they havent performed and they know it. Yes we have injuries but thats no excuse, they are good enough to perform and they just havent of late.

[red37]

No qualms there from me. Im in the 'lets wait and see' frame of mind as well. But i sure as hell aint going to pass up the opportunity to comment when he does make a b@lls up. Like everything ese, respect is earnt. On that score Benitez is part of the way there at this club. He will forever be admired and congratulated as being the manager overseeing a European Cup triumph, rightly so. But until he gets his act together in the League and makes Liverpool FC Champions of England again...there is still much work to be done in proclaiming him exempt from criticism.

I respect the missus - don't mean she's always right!

[Kharhaz]

My missus is always right....she told me