Liverpool FC Forum

by **lakes10** » Wed Aug 01, 2007 10:47 am

to start with none on the Rafa out stuff.

ok so this a bit of a down post.

Say we still do not close the gap this year , the new owners have put a lot of money into our club, how long do you think they will give the Boss and his team to get to the top.

With the amount of new player we have right now i am not sure we can get them to gel right away and i fear that it might be at least 10 games into the new football year till they gel, by that time we could be only looking at a top 3 or 4 place.

Must of us know Rafa has screwed up some games with the team he has picked, must of them have been when we have played a weak side where we should win easy and we stick out a half side and get a draw.

I not think he will get away with this under the new owners, if this did happen i could see them bring in someone to sit next to Rafa
Our new owners seem to understand football very well, not like some other clubs new owners. I also feel that they would like to see a few more English players in our team but I don’t think that is going to happen .

What will the new owners be happy with this year and next year?? F.A cup? CL.cup?? or the title, I just hope they dont think we can get all 3 or 4 in the space of one year.
when you look at them and hear them talk I just get the feeling (that I love) that they think that can rule Football for many years, I hope they are right but new money is coming into football all the time and there is only about 40 top players in the world to go around.

A club that is going to win the Title needs a good start and that is going to be hard to do when you got a team with a lot of new players, you could say that we have been lucky and that most of our new guys have been with us for a few weeks now but in truth we don’t know what the team is going to be and it is until there is a fixed 11 we will knew if they are going to gel.

Already I feel that time is running out for some players, Dirk Kuyt is a great work house but needs to be putting the ball in the net..

Ryan Babel looked out of his depth and I hope he gets the support that he needs to be a great player.
Harry Kewell is on his last chance with us and needs a few great games to save his spot in the team.

This year with the new owners here Liverpool FC is far more that a Football Club it a Business, if a Business is not getting the results that you need you make changes right away, you don’t not sit there and think “give it time it will work” you act now and make the cuts and changes to turn the Business around, Rafa and the team can not slip up, if they do they might find themselves on a disciplinary.

by **bigmick** » Wed Aug 01, 2007 11:28 am

As an add-on edit before we go any further, I must say Lakesy mate that this is a top-class topic starter.

What it's all about this season is the way we approach things. Expecting Rafa to win the title simply because we have spent more money than usual (although once again nowhere near what Man Utd have spent, and still as an accumalative figure a country mile behind what Chelsea have laid out in the last couple of seasons) is delusional. Expecting him to launch some type of title push though is probably realistic, and a failure so to do would have one or two dogs barking at the door. My suspicion is however that the new owners are too smart to be pushed into any knee-jerking.

What is a title push? Well I think it's being involved at some stage other than in the first two weeks of the season for a start, and in with a mathematical/theoretical chance with a dozen or so games to go. If we are able to do that, and to progress on from our frankly fairly abysmal league effort last term, then I for one think Rafa should be given at least a three year spell with the increased finances available to see if he can bring the league title home.

The key as I've said is the way we approach things. If we still go into Away games against middle ranking teams playing with a lack of ambition and a defensive outlook, then that would be a definate minus against the manager in my view. Similarly, if we were to see the same type of selectorial silliness which we saw at the start of last season derailing our title aspirations before we have even left the station, then I wouldn't be alone in calling for a reality check.

To tell the truth though, I don't think those things will happen. I think that we have a fantastic manager who is tactically astute, a good buyer and one who will not let his occasional stubborness get in the way of the team achieving its realistic goals.

Though there have been many excellent posts on the subject of rotation in support of Rafa's policy over the last couple of seasons (and Espionage's last one in the rotation thread is a very well reasoned and thoughtful contribution, even though it's wrong of course

) I actually think it's an old debate, old news. There are things we know for certain about how to win the Premiership, and although the goalposts constantly move some things hold true as a constant. We know for instance that the team that wins it cannot afford to draw lots of games even Away games agaisnt middle ranking sides. Rafa commented the season before last as we drew nearly all of our opening games that "I remember when this happened with Valencia, we went on to win the title" (it's not an exact quote but is the thrust of what he said). He was of course as history has proven, incorrect in his assessment. You need to go to places like Villa, Middlesboro, City, West Ham etc etc and win more often than not if you are serious about winning the league. This is because you can be certain that Man Utd and Chelsea will do precisely that. You need of course to go to places like Sheffield Utd and win every single time but don't get me started on that one again. Now Rafa is an analytical manager and he will know this from his studies. Going unbeaten Away from Home all season and drawing every game is nowhere near good enough, you must win a large number of games on the road.

In knowing this, I expect him to play with a much more attacking outlook this season and I expect us to win many more games away from Anfield. Similarly, knowing that he needs to win much more often, I expect him to rotate much less than we have seen in the past. I am pretty sure that he knows in his heart of hearts that he made a complete and utter nonsense of it last season and I would be absolutely staggered if we saw anything like the same musical chairs that took place in our dressing room.

I expect us to be more attacking, to play with a much more settled team, and to make a much better fist of it in the league. We have the right manager, and you can't really ask him to do much more than that IMHO.

by **account deleted by request** » Wed Aug 01, 2007 11:31 am

Until the new stadium is built, as long as Rafa gets us top 4 and CL spot I don't think the new owners will be unduly concerned. Once the stadium is built the pressure will be on to fill it and keep it filled, and then we may see additional pressure placed on Rafa to win cups and titles.

Transfer wise I think if the signing don't work out it will be a case of reducing his transfer money rather than shipping Rafa out.

Bottom line he needs to get minimum 4th spot every year or he could be out sooner than he expects or wants.

by **lakes10** » Wed Aug 01, 2007 11:36 am

I fear the rotation just as much as i fear Rafa's stubborness.....heres to a good start:D

by **lakes10** » Wed Aug 01, 2007 11:37 am

s@int wrote:Until the new stadium is built, as long as Rafa gets us top 4 and CL spot I don't think the new owners will be unduly concerned. Once the stadium is built the pressure will be on to fill it and keep it filled, and then we may see additional pressure placed on Rafa to win cups and titles.

Transfer wise I think if the signing don't work out it will be a case of reducing his transfer money rather than shipping Rafa out.

Bottom line he needs to get minimum 4th spot every year or he could be out sooner than he expects or wants.

4th spot? only if the gap is closer, we can not be 20 points away at the end of the year.

by **account deleted by request** » Wed Aug 01, 2007 11:39 am

lakes10 wrote:
s@int wrote:Until the new stadium is built, as long as Rafa gets us top 4 and CL spot I don't think the new owners will be unduly concerned. Once the stadium is built the pressure will be on to fill it and keep it filled, and then we may see additional pressure placed on Rafa to win cups and titles.

Transfer wise I think if the signing don't work out it will be a case of reducing his transfer money rather than shipping Rafa out.

Bottom line he needs to get minimum 4th spot every year or he could be out sooner than he expects or wants.

4th spot? only if the cap is closer, we can not be 20 points away at the end of the year.

I think we will win it, or at the very least make a good challenge. The 4th spot minimum, was how I think the new owners will view it.

by **bigmick** » Wed Aug 01, 2007 11:40 am

Another thing I would like to add is about the young fella Babel. Now I must confess to never having heard of him before we signed him up, nor of seeing him in any of the pre-season friendlies so far, but I wouldn't be in a rush as some are to pass judgement on him.

Being the type of player he is by all accounts (a genuine speed merchant, young, slippery, inexperienced) it's quite normal for players like this to not only take a bit of time to settle, but also to look pretty bad while they're doing it. When things happen at a hundred miles an hour, a miscontrol can make a bloke look like he's never kicked a ball in his life before (anyone who ever watched Cisse play would know what I mean) but often the reality is that such players are very much creatures of confidence and they need to get a couple of performances in to show their true mettle.

Though I have been known to steam into early judgements, I think that in the case of Babel it really is probably a bit "early", if you get my drift.

by **Red Dotty** » Wed Aug 01, 2007 11:48 am

I am not sure we are being a little down on our PL expectations and the squad.

My own opinion is that the spine of the squad has good experience and knowledge of teams in the PL know i.e

Reina
Finnan
Carra
Agger
Riise
Gerrard
Mascharano
Sissoko
Alonso
Crouch
Pennant
Kewell

the list of players above have got good knowledge of the other teams and i feel out of all the players he has signed the only 3 that could be regulars in the squad will be Torres,Bab,Beny

they have the qaulity if not the experience to have an impact on the games. In the last few season the squad rotation at the begining of the season has been where we have lost ground, but again the players are aware of this know and have a better understanding of it.

Also positions are really under pressure with the injection of money and quality

I am very optimistic about this coming season just need a good start and i feel we could really push on a make a challenge, we could get second place.

Come on you reds times are good players under contract, investment and a new stadium i am gonna be singing my heart out

:bowdown

by **Lando_Griffin** » Wed Aug 01, 2007 12:26 pm

Finally a good thread!

I think that, provided Rafa shows improvement over last season (let's be fair, 3rd spot in the circumstances isn't really THAT bad!) then the new owners will give him the chance to succeed.

I feel it's slightly unfair to judge Rafa by saying "This is his 4th year now...", when it's only this close season he's had anywhere near the amount of wonga to spend as his counterparts.

I don't think we will win the title this season. But I would expect a better campaign and points haul, with more attacking, exciting football along the way.

by **stmichael** » Wed Aug 01, 2007 12:57 pm

Lakes in positive post shocker.

Nah good post mate. This sums up exactly why I don't see why people were getting annoyed with Mcmanaman's comments yeterday. He was just stating the bleeding obvious. This is the first season when Rafa has really been able to compete financially with the United and Chelsea's of this world and we should be grateful for that. Had the Americans not put their hands in their pocket and we'd had the same transfer budget as previous seasons, we'd have been outspent by West Ham, Man City, Tottenham and even Fulham this summer (they've unbelievably spent nearly £25m).

As we stand, there are no excuses for not putting in a sustained challenge this season. There has been no international summer tournament so all the players have had a full pre season (Mascherano aside). We have added well in the attacking department. Torres is an exceptional player who obviously needs to hit the ground running, mainly because of his price tag. How anyone can say Babel is "out of his depth" after three games is beyond me. Voronin has looked good but obviously it's early to judge him aswell. Benayoun is a decent player who will be a far more consistent performer than Garcia was, but without offering the same goal threat. I still think we need cover in the defence though, which is why I hope the Heinze deal goes through in the end.

As Bigmick said, away at Villa we need to put down a marker. Play Kewell and Pennant wide with Stevie and Xabi in the centre and really go at them. If we win then don't change the team for the Chelsea game the week after. Get off to a bad start and we're already playing catch up, especially as we'll be a game behind with having to play a midweek CL qualifier.

Getting my bets in early, if we lose at Villa, I predict three Kuyt isn't good enough threads, 1 we wasted our money on Torres, 7 did we need Benayoun's and 2,333,436 we need Quaresma's.

by **Red Dotty** » Wed Aug 01, 2007 1:01 pm

stmichael wrote:Lakes in positive post shocker.

Nah good post mate. This sums up exactly why I don't see why people were getting annoyed with Mcmanaman's comments yeterday. He was just stating the bleeding obvious. This is the first season when Rafa has really been able to compete financially with the United and Chelsea's of this world and we should be grateful for that. Had the Americans not put their hands in their pocket and we'd had the same transfer budget as previous seasons, we'd have been outspent by West Ham, Man City, Tottenham and even Fulham this summer (they've unbelievably spent nearly £25m).

As we stand, there are no excuses for not putting in a sustained challenge this season. There has been no international summer tournament so all the players have had a full pre season (Mascherano aside). We have added well in the attacking department. Torres is an exceptional player who obviously needs to hit the ground running, mainly because of his price tag. How anyone can say Babel is "out of his depth" after three games is beyond me. Voronin has looked good but obviously it's early to judge him aswell. Benayoun is a decent player who will be a far more consistent performer than Garcia was, but without offering the same goal threat. I still think we need cover in the defence though, which is why I hope the Heinze deal goes through in the end.

As Bigmick said, away at Villa we need to put down a marker. Play Kewell and Pennant wide with Stevie and Xabi in the centre and really go at them. If we win then don't change the team for the Chelsea game the week after. Get off to a bad start and we're already playing catch up, especially as we'll be a game behind with having to play a midweek CL qualifier.

Getting my bets in early, if we lose at Villa, I predict three Kuyt isn't good enough threads, 1 we wasted our money on Torres, 7 did we need Benayoun's and 2,333,436 we need Quaresma's.

You forgot the 50 Raffa's got to go threads

:wwww

by **redtrader74** » Wed Aug 01, 2007 1:14 pm

Lets not beat round the bush here, the new owners will be happy if they are making money, and with the amateurish small time way the Club had been run, in the short to medium term the possibilities to exploit the non-existent marketing are huge. The TV Channel, the Web site, Mega stores, World wide Marketing all have huge spare capacity.

To sustain that, pitch side Rafa has to ensure CL football each year, therefore at least 4th spot, with a decent run, QF, SF, F in cups. If we do that the new stadium will also be full every week.

Thats not to say Rafa will be happy with that, because i am sure he wants to win trophies, but the owners in reality will be concerned with the bottom line, and for the time being average success would probably keep them happy.

Personally i believe we have a genuine chance of winning the title this year, not because we are Liverpool, but because for the first time in a long time we seem to have all the tools necessary.
My only concerns are that we play players in their best positions to get the best out of them, SG middle, or RM but never up front or LW, Kuyt to play in final third, not dropping back onto Carras toes.
I understand the need to strategise and negate the opponents but this should be the case with the better teams, the poor sides need to worry about us, and they should not dictate how we set up our team, and on occasion that has seemed to happen imo.

by **Igor Zidane** » Wed Aug 01, 2007 1:17 pm

I'm pretty optamistic regarding a title challenge this year , as red dotty has said the bulk of the team are already there and i really don't think we'er that far away .Last seasons start fecked us good style , and you can blame what you want(lets not get into that one), but with the additions this year ,which a quality imo ,we can only improve.

Regarding the yanks , i don't think they have a good knowledge of footy ,but they do have a good knowledge of sports based businesses and they have taken alot of time out to have a good knowledge of LFC and there supporters ,they no what we want and i think there gonna deliver.

Rafa's been given the money this year and hopefully we will see a sustained shot at the league, the yanks know there onto a winner if they get success ,that's all they will be thinking about success = profit, and personally speaking i think Rafa's the man to bring them and us that success.

by **ivor_the_injun** » Wed Aug 01, 2007 1:18 pm

I think one very important point that needs to be made is that LFC is currently a club that has time very much on its side. Steve Finnan, at 31, is currently our oldest first team regular.

Our oldest players:

Hyypia - 33 (but rarely plays)
Finnan - 31
Carragher - 29
next oldest is Kewell - 28

Look at Chelsea's squad:
Makelele - 34
Shevchenko - 31
Ballack - 31
Lampard - 29
Carvalho - 29
Drogba - 29

Man U:
Van Der Sar - 37
Giggs - 33
Scholes - 32
Neville - 32
Ferdinand - 29
Heinze (for now) - 29
Saha - 29

Age is a funny thing in football, and I've never been a great believer in the so-called "peak" age range of 28-31. There's no denying though, once a first team regular hits 30 or 31, the manager would be a fool if he wasn't already eyeing up long-term replacements.

Last season, everything came together for Man U. If Scholes' eye problem had ruled him out for as long as it had the previous campaign, they would definitely have ended up with less points - he was that influential. Ditto with Giggs - they're a far better team with him in it, and unless one of their youngsters is a sensation from the off, they'll always be less of a threat on his wing without him. This season I think those players will still be the threat they were last year. The season after that though? I can't think of too many wingers that were still regularly flying up and down the wing at 35, put it that way. Neville, much as I hate the f*cker, has been an inspiration for them for years, but injuries have started catching up with him, and I can't see him still owning that position 2 or 3 years down the line. These are key positions, and these players will leave a void when they move on.

Chelsea I think will always chop and change their personnel, and it's just a matter of whether it clicks for them or not. Essien covered a multitude of shortcomings for them at the back last season, but they need him in the midfield, and this will be increasingly pressing as Makelele heads towards his late 30s. Lampard and Ballack's ages took me by surprise, so it's not like they've got 5 year contracts coming their way. Equally though, back in the present, I'd be stunned if Shevchenko and Ballack were as ineffective for them as they were last season. I've been very interested with their lack of spending this summer, and if the big bucks have now gone, that ageing squad is going to seriously catch them up as many of our current squad mature.

The main point here though is that you could feasibly pick a first 11 for us now, and - maybe Finnan aside - look ahead 4 years and still be playing the same 11.

That's definitely in Rafa's favour. In a way I like the fact that we haven't massively overhauled the first 11, primarily because we didn't need to, but also because it indicates that Hicks and Gillett are in this for the long haul. We needed inspiration up front - we got Torres. We needed a left winger that won't break down mid-season - we got Babel. Iffy back-up players shipped out - replace them with proven Prem quality in Benayoun and world class Brazilian youth.

Money's being spent, but it's a slow build, and although I realistically think that we haven't quite got it nailed this season, I think one or two summers down the line we're going to be where we want to be.

So, to answer Lakes' question - if we get to the point where the spine of Man U and Chelsea's current sides break up and Rafa hasn't got us in a position to win the Prem, he'll have taken us as far as he can. I think he needs the title in the next 4 years, in other words.

by **Owzat** » Wed Aug 01, 2007 1:26 pm

Assuming Rafa has improved the squad then so too should the results improve. How much is the key. If the strikers aren't scoring enough, the away defeats continue and the only thing we have to show at the end of the season is third or fourth and maybe a cup final, then we have to assess the position at the end of the season. A manager can't keep buying new players and using "players take time to settle" as an excuse for no forward progress. He's spend enough for us to reasonably expect third minimum and also if we don't finish higher, then the gap to be a point or two.

And it's also about time we started getting wins over the two teams who finished above us. One win in twelve league games against Chelsea and the mancs is not good enough - that includes six away defeats if I recall correctly

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