Liverpool FC Forum

by **redtrader74** » Mon May 28, 2007 9:58 pm

s@int wrote:So what people are saying is that most of Xabi's best work goes unnoticed, and its because we have bad forwards that he's only made one assist. Who's fault is it that he's slow - gods? So last season when he made 6 assists it was because we had much better strikers I suppose?

Well as he cant run or make any goals we may aswell sell him then?

I think what i said was quite simple, quicker forwards, with better movement would highlight Xabi's abilty. In my post i included Kewell and Garcia who played a lot more last season than this. So yeah we had forwards last year more suited to exploit Xabi's talent. I hope that is clear.

by **Red Dotty** » Mon May 28, 2007 9:58 pm

No he stays for me

we have no reason to sell quality players, that should not be what we are about. We have enough frinch has beens that can be off loaded to create space.

We have know got the finacial backing and hopefully the people at the top to push us forward.

We need his quality on the pitch.
:bowdown

And just to add i hate british press fecking scum. :angry:

by **aCe'** » Mon May 28, 2007 10:10 pm

redtrader74 wrote:
s@int wrote:
If we swapped Xabi for Eto, then who is going to put in the clever passes for Eto to score? Not really Gerrards strength, Mascherano, i don't think so.

Not really Alonso's strength either mate, Alonso made 1 assist all season. So not many clever passes from him either!

An assist means that a goal has been scored,my point exactly, the forwards are not good enough to utilise the best of Xabis talent, which are passing and vision.

alonso is not a playmaker... his clever passes as you call them have been lacking this season.. he plays too deep for his own good and has been dissapointing to say the least when we go forward... dont expect him to get an assist every game playing in the center alongside gerrard as he most certainly is NOT that kind of player... coming forward and passing to open up defenses... i think gerrard would do a better job providing striker with clear-cut scoring opportunities but thats just me...
we all obviously rate alonso but point is... you dont have to have 4 quality midfielders with wonderful / different abilities to challenge for the title...it helps but its never a must !

sabre ... dont know if you are reading this but... sorry mate still dont know what you mean ?! you made me compare our central midfieders to Arsenals, ManUtds and even Barcelonas and turns out we have more depth than all htose big clubs even if we do sell alonso.... ronaldinho is no cenral midfielder so dont give me no "is ronaldinho a striker then ?" craap..

we were specifically talking about depth in central midfield and barcelona ONLY have thiaggo motta, xavi, deco and iniesta as established 1st team central midfielders 3 of which are played ...add to that players like edmilson and marques who are only played there as cover and you'll see they are defeiitely lacking in that holding midfield department ! Alonso would start EVERY game for Barcelona if he moves !
Manutd won the league with a center midfield quartet of Scholes-Carrick-Fletcher-Oshea ... hardly comparable to our Gerrard-Mascherano-Sissoko-Alonso eh ?! even withhout alonso in the picture... put on lucas instead and we still look better equped than the mancs in the center of the park !

Alonso..played alongside mascherano would NEVER provide what Gerrard does in terms of overall ability and attacking threat...also..Gerrard in the right is a waste of talent that to me...is no longer necessary..
having said that, i still think that a gerrard-alonso partnership against weaker opposition in the league wouldnt be such a bad idea... but against most top sides ...we will needd mascherano in that holding position...

sell alonso or no...i still expect us to be a better team next season !

by **LFC2007** » Mon May 28, 2007 10:24 pm

aCe' wrote:... but against most top sides ...we will needd mascherano in that holding position...

I disagree, I see no reason why Alonso would lack the ability to play in the holding role next season. He will, in all likelihood, play better than he has done this season, especially with no world cup to hinder pre-season preparations.

Likewise when you say:

"Alonso would start EVERY game for Barcelona if he moves"

I disagree.
No player is guaranteed a starting position in any team, he'd have to first adapt then compete with the rest of the players in his position if he moved to Barca - something I do not see happening in any case.

by **Sabre** » Mon May 28, 2007 10:31 pm

I give up.

by **account deleted by request** » Mon May 28, 2007 10:35 pm

aCe' wrote:
redtrader74 wrote:
s@int wrote:
If we swapped Xabi for Eto, then who is going to put in the clever passes for Eto to score? Not really Gerrards strength, Mascherano, i don't think so.

Not really Alonso's strength either mate, Alonso made 1 assist all season. So not many clever passes from him either!

An assist means that a goal has been scored,my point exactly, the forwards are not good enough to utilise the best of Xabis talent, which are passing and vision.

alonso is not a playmaker... his clever passes as you call them have been lacking this season.. he plays too deep for his own good and has been dissapointing to say the least when we go forward... dont expect him to get an assist every game playing in the center alongside gerrard as he most certainly is NOT that kind of player... coming forward and passing to open up defenses... i think gerrard would do a better job providing striker with clear-cut scoring opportunities but thats just me...
we all obviously rate alonso but point is... you dont have to have 4 quality midfielders with wonderful / different abilities to challenge for the title...it helps but its never a must !

sabre ... dont know if you are reading this but... sorry mate still dont know what you mean ?! you made me compare our central midfieders to Arsenals, ManUtds and even Barcelonas and turns out we have more depth than all htose big clubs even if we do sell alonso.... ronaldinho is no cenral midfielder so dont give me no "is ronaldinho a striker then ?" craap..

we were specifically talking about depth in central midfield and barcelona ONLY have thiaggo motta, xavi, deco and iniesta as established 1st team central midfielders 3 of which are played ...add to that players like edmilson and marques who are only played there as cover and you'll see they are defeiitely lacking in that holding midfield department ! Alonso would start EVERY game for Barcelona if he moves !
Manutd won the league with a center midfield quartet of Scholes-Carrick-Fletcher-Oshea ... hardly comparable to our Gerrard-Mascherano-Sissoko-Alonso eh ?! even withhout alonso in the picture... put on lucas instead and we still look better equped than the mancs in the center of the park !

Alonso..played alongside mascherano would NEVER provide what Gerrard does in terms of overall ability and attacking threat...also..Gerrard in the right is a waste of talent that to me...is no longer necessary..
having said that, i still think that a gerrard-alonso partnership against weaker opposition in the league wouldnt be such a bad idea... but against most top sides ...we will needd mascherano in that holding position...

sell alonso or no...i still expect us to be a better team next season !

I agree with most of your post Ace, but as I have said before I consider Alonso a deep lying playmaker (your point about playing too deep) who has to play deep because of his lack of mobility and speed.

Fabrigas is a player who should at least be comparable with Alonso, however Fabrigas has made 14 assists this season (even with Henry missing for most of the season)or maybe Gilberto Silva as he only made 2 assists, he did score 10 goals though.Gary Speed of Bolton with 8 goals and 5 assists. Campo of Bolton 5 assists. Or (sorry about this one ) P.Neville 5 assists.Carsley 4 assists.

I don't dispute Alonso is one of our best players however, I just think if we had to sacrifice one of our best players to strengthen in other areas, he or Sissoko would be my choice. I don't know how much money Rafa will get ,I hope he gets enough that such sacrifices are not needed but if they are.....

by **Penguins** » Mon May 28, 2007 10:40 pm

I just think he is playing too deep and does lack pace to get forward as much as he needs too.
This season other teams has put pressure on him when he gets the ball and he is slow and not very mobile to get out of situations and the time he needs to spread his passes isn't there.
He has great vision, passing ability and creativity but he always takes to much time deciding what to do with the ball and this makes his passing less accurate.
But with more pace, which is vital in the PL, he would be world class.
He would do superbly in Spain and italy where you are allowed more time on the ball. And he will be doing well in the CL also for the same reasons.

by **aCe'** » Mon May 28, 2007 10:41 pm

LFC2007 wrote:
aCe' wrote:... but against most top sides ...we will needd mascherano in that holding position...

I disagree, I see no reason why Alonso would lack the ability to play in the holding role next season. He will, in all likelihood, play better than he has done this season, especially with no world cup to hinder pre-season preparations.

Likewise when you say:

"Alonso would start EVERY game for Barcelona if he moves"

I disagree.
No player is guaranteed a starting position in any team, he'd have to first adapt then compete with the rest of the players in his position if he moved to Barca - something I do not see happening in any case.

gerrard - alonso partnership didnt work and rafa doesnt fancy the partnership !

barcelona... play 3 in the center... Xavi and Deco ad XXX iwth Iniesta a possible replacement for Xavi, Deco and to a lesser extent Ronaldinho !

thiago motta is their only holding midfielder given Xavi's modified position... they are often found playing marques or edmilson in that position due to injury or tactical reasons but comeon ...in all seriousness... motta or alonso... motta is obviously no barcelona quality and is probably one of their worst players if not the one... Alonso would be perfext for barcelona... would make a difference there and would go on to become a great player for them....
i hate barcelona... would hate for Alonso to join them ...but ... he would make thier team that much better !

by **LFC2007** » Mon May 28, 2007 10:54 pm

I agree with you, he would make their team much better.

But that is not to say he will start EVERY game.

Nor is it to say he will settle there.

But I think Rafa will play Alonso and Gerrard together at times next season, I think they can play together.

Although Alonso lacks pace, he has the ability and savvy nature to be able to boss the area just ahead of the defence.

With a good pre-season I expect his fitness levels to be bang on come this August.

by **aCe'** » Mon May 28, 2007 10:55 pm

s@int wrote:
aCe' wrote:
redtrader74 wrote:
s@int wrote:
If we swapped Xabi for Eto, then who is going to put in the clever passes for Eto to score? Not really Gerrards strength, Mascherano, i don't think so.

Not really Alonso's strength either mate, Alonso made 1 assist all season. So not many clever passes from him either!

An assist means that a goal has been scored,my point exactly, the forwards are not good enough to utilise the best of Xabis talent, which are passing and vision.

alonso is not a playmaker... his clever passes as you call them have been lacking this season.. he plays too deep for his own good and has been dissapointing to say the least when we go forward... dont expect him to get an assist every game playing in the center alongside gerrard as he most certainly is NOT that kind of player... coming forward and passing to open up defenses... i think gerrard would do a better job providing striker with clear-cut scoring opportunities but thats just me...
we all obviously rate alonso but point is... you dont have to have 4 quality midfielders with wonderful / different abilities to challenge for the title...it helps but its never a must !

sabre ... dont know if you are reading this but... sorry mate still dont know what you mean ?! you made me compare our central midfieders to Arsenals, ManUtds and even Barcelonas and turns out we have more depth than all htose big clubs even if we do sell alonso.... ronaldinho is no cenral midfielder so dont give me no "is ronaldinho a striker then ?" craap..

we were specifically talking about depth in central midfield and barcelona ONLY have thiaggo motta, xavi, deco and iniesta as established 1st team central midfielders 3 of which are played ...add to that players like edmilson and marques who are only played there as cover and you'll see they are defeiitely lacking in that holding midfield department ! Alonso would start EVERY game for Barcelona if he moves !
Manutd won the league with a center midfield quartet of Scholes-Carrick-Fletcher-Oshea ... hardly comparable to our Gerrard-Mascherano-Sissoko-Alonso eh ?! even withhout alonso in the picture... put on lucas instead and we still look better equped than the mancs in the center of the park !

Alonso..played alongside mascherano would NEVER provide what Gerrard does in terms of overall ability and attacking threat...also..Gerrard in the right is a waste of talent that to me...is no longer necessary..
having said that, i still think that a gerrard-alonso partnership against weaker opposition in the league wouldnt be such a bad idea... but against most top sides ...we will needd mascherano in that holding position...

sell alonso or no...i still expect us to be a better team next season !

I agree with most of your post Ace, but as I have said before I consider Alonso a deep lying playmaker (your point about playing too deep) who has to play deep because of his lack of mobility and speed.

Fabrigas is a player who should at least be comparable with Alonso, however Fabrigas has made 14 assists this season (even with Henry missing for most of the season)or maybe Gilberto Silva as he only made 2 assists, he did score 10 goals though.Gary Speed of Bolton with 8 goals and 5 assists. Campo of Bolton 5 assists. Or (sorry about this one ) P.Neville 5 assists.Carsley 4 assists.

I don't dispute Alonso is one of our best players however, I just think if we had to sacrifice one of our best players to strengthen in other areas, he or Sissoko would be my choice. I don't know how much money Rafa will get ,I hope he gets enough that such sacrifices are not needed but if they are.....

yea but when you play alonso-mascherano in the center... you expect atleast one of the 2 to come forward and support the forwards and take that odd shot or make that superb pass r get on the end of a cross... neither mascherno nor alonso provide that....gerrard does !

fabregas is a whole different story ! more comparable to a gerrard playing in the center with mascherano or deco in barcelona, even lampard for chelsea...

he dictates the tempo... makes brilliant runs and has brilliant attacking positioning... if gilberta wasnt playing alongside, i doubt hed have all that freedom ! comparable to alonso in the sense of both playing alongside good holding midfielders which should allow them to make an impact on the attacking end.. fabregas has been one of Arsenal's best player in the past couple of seasons.. and iv said it in another thread... fabre might not have the passing abilities of alonso, bt playing alongside mascherano or gilberto, id pick fabregas ahead of alonso any day of the week !

by **aCe'** » Mon May 28, 2007 10:57 pm

LFC2007 wrote:I agree with you, he would make their team much better.

But that is not to say he will start EVERY game.

Nor is it to say he will settle there.

But I think Rafa will play Alonso and Gerrard together at times next season, I think they can play together.

Although Alonso lacks pace, he has the ability and savvy nature to be able to boss the area just ahead of the defence.

With a good pre-season I expect his fitness levels to be bang on come this August.

i dont think es going anywhere... and im sure hell start many many games next season...
Question is... would we miss him if he leaves ? can we not go on to become a better team if he leaves ?
my thoughts... yes we would miss him... and yes will be a better team !

by **LFC2007** » Mon May 28, 2007 10:59 pm

It's speculating on what will happen IF he leaves, I see the likelihood of him going as <5%, therefore I wouldn't comment on how it would affect us if he did.

by **Sabre** » Mon May 28, 2007 11:03 pm

fabregas is a whole different story ! more comparable to a gerrard playing in the center with mascherano or deco in barcelona, even lampard for chelsea...

I agree Ace'. I don't use to with you as of late, but yes in this bit. Very different players. Fabregas is a not very strong, but skillful, decent dribbler, and last pass spotter player. And FWIW, he can pick some balls deep to carry them upfront. But definitely has not the role of a holding midfielder, IMHO.

Perhaps it's pointing just the obvious, but it's easier to make an assist when your natural position is between the two lines, and you visit opposition box outside often (Luis Garcia in our team, Gerrard as of late in the 451, Fabregas, Arteta) than making an assist from deep positions, that goes through the two opposition lines and is controlled by a striker. I don't see Cesc Fabregas making covers for their team mates often (to be honest a see few games of them).

Assists are good for commenting basketball and some positions. Stats are relative. All of them. The good passes stats usually puts the R and L backs as the players with most good passes. In the "lost balls" stats, strikers and attacking midfielders are the ones to lose most. Some stats are very related to the position. And certainly when he's asked to do a holding midfielder role, I wouldn't take into consideration the "assists" stat too much.

P.S. What do the stats say about Lampard. DO they say he's better than Gerrard? well, he isn't. IMHO.

by **Penguins** » Mon May 28, 2007 11:04 pm

True, even though Alonso and Gerrard hasn't worked over a long season Alonso will still get many starts.

Mascherano and Alonso could work since they haven't played together yet in that many games.
Would need some super attacking wingers though for that combination to work.

by **The Manhattan Project** » Mon May 28, 2007 11:07 pm

If we sell one of our best midfielders in order to sign a new attacker, then who's going to provide the ball to the attacker in order for him to score?

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