Liverpool FC Forum

[ivor_the_injun]

I'm not going to get into an argument about it, as I think they've both been disappointing on the whole, but I do think Alonso has been that bit better than Stevie this season.

He's a wonderful player though. I don't care about matches we've won or lost with him in or out of the side - for me, we're a better side with him in it and in form. Ditto Gerrard, so don't think I'm having a pop at him. I think the three best players at the club, in no order, are Stevie, Carra and Xabi. Without any of these in the side, the team's quality, rigidity and rhythm dips a hell of a lot for me.

When Alonso's passing game clicks and he unfussily breaks up play while staying on is feet, you don't notice him. When he's missing, or his form dips (and I called for him to be dropped last September-ish such was his poor start to the season), you really, really notice it. Both in defence and attack, his passing keeps things ticking along, something Sissoko and Zenden just don't bring to the side. If people want to bring stats up, I'm sure you'll find several games where our possession percentage is dominant with Alonso in the side, helping pin sides back behind the ball. With a big signing up front to help make better use of this sort of dominance, yes, we'd miss him. F*ck yes.

Mascherano looks a fabulous player to me, and if we haven't already, we should get him signed up long term. But if you have a player like Alonso on your books, and sizeable investment behind you, why the hell would you sell him? We need a squad of excellent players, not just a first 11. After the season we've had, I'm stunned people are suggesting we cut corners in an area that we have such great depth - there's a part to play for all of them over a long, competitive-on-all-fronts season, which is exactly what we should be aiming for.

[Scottbot]

We need a squad of excellent players, not just a first 11. After the season we've had, I'm stunned people are suggesting we cut corners in an area that we have such great depth - there's a part to play for all of them over a long, competitive-on-all-fronts season, which is exactly what we should be aiming for.

I'm not sure selling one of our centre-mids is really cutting corners Ivor lad. I can't see how Rafa can keep them all happy? Especially not with the Braziallian lad coming in. Gerrard, Alonso, Mascherano and Sissoko are all starting players. If not here, then at another BIG club. I figure one of them will have (or want) to go this off-season.

[ivor_the_injun]

Well, you certainly don't sell from the top of the list, and however much I rate Mascherano, I still have Stevie and Alonso as the first choice central mid pairing.

With that in mind, if one had to go, it'd be Sissoko.

[66-1112520797]

I'm not going to get into an argument about it, as I think they've both been disappointing on the whole, but I do think Alonso has been that bit better than Stevie this season.

He's a wonderful player though. I don't care about matches we've won or lost with him in or out of the side - for me, we're a better side with him in it and in form. Ditto Gerrard, so don't think I'm having a pop at him. I think the three best players at the club, in no order, are Stevie, Carra and Xabi. Without any of these in the side, the team's quality, rigidity and rhythm dips a hell of a lot for me.

When Alonso's passing game clicks and he unfussily breaks up play while staying on is feet, you don't notice him. When he's missing, or his form dips (and I called for him to be dropped last September-ish such was his poor start to the season), you really, really notice it. Both in defence and attack, his passing keeps things ticking along, something Sissoko and Zenden just don't bring to the side. If people want to bring stats up, I'm sure you'll find several games where our possession percentage is dominant with Alonso in the side, helping pin sides back behind the ball. With a big signing up front to help make better use of this sort of dominance, yes, we'd miss him. F*ck yes.

Mascherano looks a fabulous player to me, and if we haven't already, we should get him signed up long term. But if you have a player like Alonso on your books, and sizeable investment behind you, why the hell would you sell him? We need a squad of excellent players, not just a first 11. After the season we've had, I'm stunned people are suggesting we cut corners in an area that we have such great depth - there's a part to play for all of them over a long, competitive-on-all-fronts season, which is exactly what we should be aiming for.

Most of what you've said is pretty much spot on Ivor except for the the " passing game clicks " this season it hasnt, not when compared to seasons prior to that.

Now I like Xabi, I think he's a wonderful player too, and I havent said sell him at anyone time ( I dont think). But I have suggested in definately thinking about it, if it involves a possible move for a World class striker.

Reason being and like I've said already, the team has largely been built around him for the last three years. Arguably our best player (Gerrard) has been moved around the pitch to accomodate Xabi, as their own partnership didnt work, and people on these boards came up with the conclusion that Gerrard wasnt disciplined enough to play in that role with Alonso. So you'll find those same people around here are the ones who advocate that Gerrard is best deployed out wide.

When really I think he's better off in the middle. Now his partnership hasnt work with Alonso, and I think its now time for our manager to try and build the team around Gerrard. After all his game IMO is better suited to the Prem than Alonso's is, build the team around him !

If Alonsos' passing game isnt " clicking " and his compatibility isnt working with Gerrard. Then why not try Mascha who's game does seem to compliment Gerrards a little better. Granted his passing isnt as good, but surely as a midfield pairing its better to have the two working in tandem, doing what each does best, than a midfield paring thats never really worked for whatever reasons.
To me, Mascha and Gerrard both on form is better than having Mascha and Xabi on form, as its too defensive. Or Xabi and Gerrard together, one usually performs and the other doesnt, if they both clicked as a partnership I'd happily say play em, but they dont.

[Sabre]

Reason being and like I've said already, the team has largely been built around him for the last three years. Arguably our best player (Gerrard) has been moved around the pitch to accomodate Xabi, as their own partnership didnt work, and people on these boards came up with the conclusion that Gerrard wasnt disciplined enough to play in that role with Alonso. So you'll find those same people around here are the ones who advocate that Gerrard is best deployed out wide.

Wrong.

Can you explain me why do you think Gerrard has been moved to accommodate Xabi?

Xabi and Gerrard are compatible, and if Mascherano had been here instead of Xabi, Gerrard would have played in the right and as an attacking midfielder aswell.

Why? because quite simply he was the only one who could do the job, he was the only one good enough to do that. Alonso can't play as a right midfielder. Alonso would be completely LOST as an attacking midfielder.

So if you think that the Alonso departure will mean that Gerrard won't move from the middle any more, then that's not right IMHO. Gerrard won't play more in the right when there's a winger and a right midfielder in our squad. And we haven't a right midfielder a la Arteta (who's versatile).

If Rafa wanted to play the 451, the only option for the AM position was Gerrard or Luis Garcia.

So Gerrard has played other positions because he's excellent and he could do the job. Cover that positions with good enough players and Gerrard will return to the CM position, with Mascherano, OR with Alonso.

But it's completely untrue that the squad has been built around Alonso, and if many people thinks that, then I can see why there's much talk about Alonso as of late.

[Scottbot]

Arguably our best player (Gerrard) has been moved around the pitch to accomodate Xabi, as their own partnership didnt work, and people on these boards came up with the conclusion that Gerrard wasnt disciplined enough to play in that role with Alonso. So you'll find those same people around here are the ones who advocate that Gerrard is best deployed out wide.

I was a big fan of Gerrard out wide in 05/06 and it was pretty difficult to argue with the evidence. He had a bloody awesome season on the flank, the best of his career. However, this season you can see he has refined his game somewhat, he has played with more discipline, kept it simple and rediscovered the defensive part of his game. I'm happy to concede he should be back in the middle based on his performances this past season.

[whylongball?]

Interesting thread!
I think we would miss him despite being unhappy with some of his occasional shitty performances. He still very young  and i think he can still improve a lot which can be scary!
For any players, you need competition to bring out the best. That reason alone should guarantee Alonso's place next season. Not to mention any injury that may happen to SG. Who will then provide the creativity?
I agree with people here a world class striker is a must. But selling him is a weak move.
I think Rafa should play SG + Alonso in the center most of the time and rotate as needed.

[Scottbot]

But it's completely untrue that the squad has been built around Alonso, and if many people thinks that, then I can see why there's much talk about Alonso as of late.

Not sure that's quite what people mean Sabes. saying the team is 'built around Alonso' is a bit strong particularly as Rafa is VERY much about the TEAM and not the individual. However, it is fair to say Alonso has been the fulcrum (or the quaterback) of this team (it used to be Gerrard). So much of the play goes through him, he takes the ball off the centre-halves, starts attacks and is often/usually the player the rest of the team expect to show for the ball if they need to check back inside or towards their own goal. Gerrard himself has said in the past that Xabi 'makes us tick'. I think a lot of posters would like to Stevie given this role within the team.

[66-1112520797]

Reason being and like I've said already, the team has largely been built around him for the last three years. Arguably our best player (Gerrard) has been moved around the pitch to accomodate Xabi, as their own partnership didnt work, and people on these boards came up with the conclusion that Gerrard wasnt disciplined enough to play in that role with Alonso. So you'll find those same people around here are the ones who advocate that Gerrard is best deployed out wide.

Wrong.

Can you explain me why do you think Gerrard has been moved to accommodate Xabi?

Xabi and Gerrard are compatible, and if Mascherano had been here instead of Xabi, Gerrard would have played in the right and as an attacking midfielder aswell.

Why? because quite simply he was the only one who could do the job, he was the only one good enough to do that. Alonso can't play as a right midfielder. Alonso would be completely LOST as an attacking midfielder.

So if you think that the Alonso departure will mean that Gerrard won't move from the middle any more, then that's not right IMHO. Gerrard won't play more in the right when there's a winger and a right midfielder in our squad. And we haven't a right midfielder a la Arteta (who's versatile).

If Rafa wanted to play the 451, the only option for the AM position was Gerrard or Luis Garcia.

So Gerrard has played other positions because he's excellent and he could do the job. Cover that positions with good enough players and Gerrard will return to the CM position, with Mascherano, OR with Alonso.

But it's completely untrue that the squad has been built around Alonso, and if many people thinks that, then I can see why there's much talk about Alonso as of late.

Wrong ?

I think Benitez hit two birds with one stone in regards to moving Gerrard around.

To solve the problem right hand side, and in the knowledge of knowing the xabi/Stevie partnership didnt work.

Also just for the note again ah..... I dont think Gerrards as good when he's in an AM position as he is in the CM.

The same thing seems to happen with Gerrard and England in the fact that he is thought of so highly that he can play anywhere. Its exactly the same scenario, no difference what so ever. All Liverpool fans moan when Gerrards out wide left or right for England all Liverpool fans moan when the Gerrard Lampard partnership doesnt work through the middle, and guess what Lampard gets all the blame.

You say there compatible, on paper maybe. But its been put to the test enough times to show it has never really sparked even the most rosey tinted lunetter wearer could see that.

Maybe if Xabi left, Gerrard wouldnt go back to the middle, but I'd like to think otherwise because I cant see any other area on the pitch where Gerrard is as good.

Fact. The team, not squad Sabre has largely been built around Alonso. The spine of the team consists of Reina, Carra, Alonso and Kuyt. Alonso has been at the center of the midfield for long time now, and IMO the team has been built around him when it should of possibly been Gerrard, thats my opinon.

[whylongball?]

i cant believe people are saying dont sell kuyt, what exactly has he done to warrant beingin our team, apart from run around a lot, correct me if i am wrong but isnt it the strikers job to score goals, and how many has he scored?

Peewee I dont think he's great.
But then this is his 1st season, scored 12 goals out of 34 games played (soccernet) and finished top  scorer. So i think its hard to judge him just yet.
I just wish he would reserve a litle bit of his energy to score instead of running whole day

[monkey 20]

Alonso is the guy in the middle who pulls the strings. Mascherano is a great player and will be a huge asset for LFC going forward but.....he doesn't yet in my opinion have the eye for a pass that Alonso does! I think we need Alonso there for a couple of years until Mascha and this new kid from Gremio settle into life at LFC and become as a good a passer of the ball as Alonso is!

mascherano will never be as good at passing as alonso is. he bring a lot to the table though and he's good enough to be there, but xabi is a special kind of player, you'll never get a player to pass as well as him, unless that player has that potential in his game - which is not the case with mascherano.

dont get me wrong, i want to keep xabi alonso and mascherano, but if losing xabi put the club at a better advantage of winning the title with a world class striker, then so be it....i trust rafa to do what is right...

[66-1112520797]

i trust rafa to do what is right

Considering who and what we're discussing in this thread, I think thats quite right as it is a b.loody big call.

[Scottbot]

mascherano will never be as good at passing as alonso is. he bring a lot to the table though and he's good enough to be there, but xabi is a special kind of player, you'll never get a player to pass as well as him, unless that player has that potential in his game - which is not the case with mascherano.

It's a good point and highlights that everyone is talking about Masherano like he is some kind of midfield messiah. His passing has looked a little sloppy at times (Chelsea at the bridge springs to mind) and i remember everyone eulogising about Alonso in just the same way just 10 games into his Liverpool career.

[stapo1000]

the last thing we should be doing is selling world class players like alonso just cos his form was a little patchy for one season

[davo_LFC]

The thing with alonso is that he is far far more effective when he has quality around him, with two top class wingers and some strikers who can actually show some movement upfront a la eto'o then he would have a greater impact, it seems to me like he doesnt have enough options most of the time and that is largely down to some of the sh.ite he has to play with. Better players will get the best out of xabi and losing him would be a massive massive mistake in my eyes.