Liverpool FC Forum

by **RedorDead** » Mon May 28, 2007 12:37 pm

Bamaga man wrote:
RedorDead wrote:
Sabre wrote:I meant no disrespect to Carra and Steve. Steve is world class, the best player of LFC, and Carra is a legend. But they cannot win all by themselves. They need to be surrounded by great players too, and a good manager of course.

And they would also need world class strikers to put the ball in the back of the net, something we havn't had for three seasons now. Kuyt and Crouch are great "second" strikers but we need that deadly finisher to make a serious assault on the premiership.
For me Gerrard in the middle is better paired with Mascherano or Sissoko then he would be with Alonso and I personally would always pick Gerrard over Alonso to start in the middle, so that said would it not be worth swapping Alonso and a few quid for Eto'o who could truly make a difference?

I dont think Kuyt is what we need either but thats another tangent altogether. I'd rather keep Xabi than Kuyt.

I dont think Bellamy is what we need either, I'd only hang on to Crouch personally. Fowler, Kuyt and Bellamy could all go in my book.

Our strikers are the weakest link in the team.

While I admit that we need to strengthen our stikers (the whole point of my post really) I can't see us replacing Kuyt, Fowler and Bellamy. Voronin is coming in but I don't know too much about what style of player he is......he paired Shev for Ukraine so I guess he plays off a finisher like Crouch and Kuyt do...that still leaves us in need of that 25 goal a season man. We need 4 strikers, three of those we have in my opinion in Voronin, Crouch and Kuyt....we just need to splash big on the fourth.

by **Sabre** » Mon May 28, 2007 12:41 pm

RedorDead wrote:
Sabre wrote:I meant no disrespect to Carra and Steve. Steve is world class, the best player of LFC, and Carra is a legend. But they cannot win all by themselves. They need to be surrounded by great players too, and a good manager of course.

And they would also need world class strikers to put the ball in the back of the net, something we havn't had for three seasons now. Kuyt and Crouch are great "second" strikers but we need that deadly finisher to make a serious assault on the premiership.
For me Gerrard in the middle is better paired with Mascherano or Sissoko then he would be with Alonso and I personally would always pick Gerrard over Alonso to start in the middle, so that said would it not be worth swapping Alonso and a few quid for Eto'o who could truly make a difference?

Yes Bigmick, I can see your point, and we agree more than we disagree on this.

If someone thinks, Rafa for instance, that the swap is going to be GOOD for LFC, then sell Alonso sooner rather than later. But I'm not so sure it will be as "harmless" swap as it may seem.

After all, if Barcelona, who was out of Europe in quarter of finals, is willing to make a swap like that, then we should ask why they would do that. Because Eto'o is their only top striker. Gudjohnssen certainly isn't top class. Saviola is good, but not as good as Eto'o... and if they sell Eto'o, they'd need a top striker as much as we do now.

What I don't want next season are Arbeloas, Josemis and Nuñezs. Average-semigood Spanish players are not good enough for LFC. What we need is to keep our best, send what's really replaceable, buy a top striker, strenghten the wings, give extra depth to the squad and start winning every title they throw at our face.

That said, if it is TRUE that losing Alonso for a Striker is a good swap, then let's do it. But is it true? I cannot say it's not true, but I can't say I'm sure it's true neither.

Ah Bigmick, my point on the Steven, Carra, Owen, point is precisely that having 3 great players isn't enough, even if one of them is the best striker I've seen the last decade in Spain (Owen). My point is that we must get used to this: when

Mascherano is sat down, you won't see a Zenden in the middle. You'll see an Alonso. Then rotations will work.

When you sit down, Carraguer, you won't see a Palleta, but a proven centre back. Then rotations will work.

And for Sissoko, yes, the fact he's replaceable, doesn't mean I don't rate him. I'm not surprised whatsoever a big club like Juventus is interested, because he's a ball winner, not perhaps a holding midfielder because he lacks some things for that, but definitely a very very very useful player to have, and that I wouldn't sell cheap.

by **66-1112520797** » Mon May 28, 2007 12:49 pm

RedorDead wrote:
Bamaga man wrote:
RedorDead wrote:
Sabre wrote:I meant no disrespect to Carra and Steve. Steve is world class, the best player of LFC, and Carra is a legend. But they cannot win all by themselves. They need to be surrounded by great players too, and a good manager of course.

And they would also need world class strikers to put the ball in the back of the net, something we havn't had for three seasons now. Kuyt and Crouch are great "second" strikers but we need that deadly finisher to make a serious assault on the premiership.
For me Gerrard in the middle is better paired with Mascherano or Sissoko then he would be with Alonso and I personally would always pick Gerrard over Alonso to start in the middle, so that said would it not be worth swapping Alonso and a few quid for Eto'o who could truly make a difference?

I dont think Kuyt is what we need either but thats another tangent altogether. I'd rather keep Xabi than Kuyt.

I dont think Bellamy is what we need either, I'd only hang on to Crouch personally. Fowler, Kuyt and Bellamy could all go in my book.

Our strikers are the weakest link in the team.

While I admit that we need to strengthen our stikers (the whole point of my post really) I can't see us replacing Kuyt, Fowler and Bellamy. Voronin is coming in but I don't know too much about what style of player he is......he paired Shev for Ukraine so I guess he plays off a finisher like Crouch and Kuyt do...that still leaves us in need of that 25 goal a season man. We need 4 strikers, three of those we have in my opinion in Voronin, Crouch and Kuyt....we just need to splash big on the fourth.

I agree mate I cant see us selling Kuyt, thats just my opinion and I'm probably/definately in the minority on that one. But yes a world class striker is definately needed.

Back to Alonso though, well Gerrard actually I think this season and last. Rafa has largely built the team around Xabi more than anyone else. Its a detriment to Stevie's abilitiy but he's the one who is often shuffled around the team pack. He is our best player our best midfielder, and a central one, I think the team should be built around him. Make him the vulcrum of the team and I believe our chances of winning the league will improve greatly. Him and Alonso never really worked for whatever reason, and it does look as though Mascha compliments him better.

If I were Rafa and of course taken into considerations the money of a sale or part exchange, the thought of accomodating Xabi and Gerrard in the same midfield together would also cross my mind in where the pair of the fit into a balanced midfield. I dont mind 4-5-1 formation, but again I dont think it gets the best out of Gerrard in the 'hole' role. This post sounds so pro Gerrard, but I think its about time he's played in his proper position, and the team under Benitez should be built around him. Give it a go Rafa ! You might just reap the reward from it.

But in saying all that I do believe in strength and depth in the squad, so if it were upto me, and Xabi was happy playing second fiddle to Gerrard and possibly Mascha. I'd happily keep him and sell Kuyt to raise the funds to buy a world class striker.

by **Sabre** » Mon May 28, 2007 12:55 pm

I wouldn't sell Kuyt neither. He's not world class, but he plays in the orange, which is not Madagascar national team. He's nor world class, but definitely good enough for LFC. I can only see his value raising next season.

Bellamy is a player I can't say a bad thing about him in the pitch, but is more replaceable. And God is leaving. So there's no need to sell Kuyt, at the least, he'll be very important in rainy away matches against Bolton!

by **aCe'** » Mon May 28, 2007 12:55 pm

Sabre wrote:
RedorDead wrote:
Sabre wrote:I meant no disrespect to Carra and Steve. Steve is world class, the best player of LFC, and Carra is a legend. But they cannot win all by themselves. They need to be surrounded by great players too, and a good manager of course.

And they would also need world class strikers to put the ball in the back of the net, something we havn't had for three seasons now. Kuyt and Crouch are great "second" strikers but we need that deadly finisher to make a serious assault on the premiership.
For me Gerrard in the middle is better paired with Mascherano or Sissoko then he would be with Alonso and I personally would always pick Gerrard over Alonso to start in the middle, so that said would it not be worth swapping Alonso and a few quid for Eto'o who could truly make a difference?

Yes Bigmick, I can see your point, and we agree more than we disagree on this.

If someone thinks, Rafa for instance, that the swap is going to be GOOD for LFC, then sell Alonso sooner rather than later. But I'm not so sure it will be as "harmless" swap as it may seem.

After all, if Barcelona, who was out of Europe in quarter of finals, is willing to make a swap like that, then we should ask why they would do that. Because Eto'o is their only top striker. Gudjohnssen certainly isn't top class. Saviola is good, but not as good as Eto'o... and if they sell Eto'o, they'd need a top striker as much as we do now.

What I don't want next season are Arbeloas, Josemis and Nuñezs. Average-semigood Spanish players are not good enough for LFC. What we need is to keep our best, send what's really replaceable, buy a top striker, strenghten the wings, give extra depth to the squad and start winning every title they throw at our face.

That said, if it is TRUE that losing Alonso for a Striker is a good swap, then let's do it. But is it true? I cannot say it's not true, but I can't say I'm sure it's true neither.

Ah Bigmick, my point on the Steven, Carra, Owen, point is precisely that having 3 great players isn't enough, even if one of them is the best striker I've seen the last decade in Spain (Owen). My point is that we must get used to this: when

Mascherano is sat down, you won't see a Zenden in the middle. You'll see an Alonso. Then rotations will work.

When you sit down, Carraguer, you won't see a Palleta, but a proven centre back. Then rotations will work.

And for Sissoko, yes, the fact he's not replaceable, doesn't mean I don't rate him. I'm not surprised whatsoever a big club like Juventus is interested, because he's a ball winner, not perhaps a holding midfielder because he lacks some things for that, but definitely a very very very useful player to have, and that I wouldn't sell cheap.

sabre... what u seem to be thinking of is not only unattainable... but very obtimistic to say the least...

u want a squad of some 30 class players who are all content with being rotated at a regular basis... each position with as many players offering as many different things as possible..
each is brilliant in what they do and is hence 'indispensable' in your books... that would work... in a perfect world... if we were owned by the world bank and managed by a certain Mr. Benitez

i dont think that its healthy having 6 quality players competing for 2 spots... not when one of the 6 is miles better than the other 5 and would demand a starting position leaving 5 battling it out for 1 spot... the wages are something we all dont seem topay much attention to... but they are every bit as important as the transfer fee is imo...

im not saying that what u say is wrong... obviously u cannot go wrong saying aloso is a good player and we shouldnt be selling our best players but u r not giving any solutions...u just make matters even mre complicated...

sum it up for ya... we all wouldnt like our beloved alonso to leave, but if worse comes to worst... we'll sell him to fund a move for a player we actually NEED.. a player we cant go forward without ! and NO... buying a less expensive player just to keep a quality player in te roster wont do...been there...done that...failed miserably

not an attack sabre... just putting my thoughts across...

by **aCe'** » Mon May 28, 2007 12:58 pm

kuyt will improve ALOT next season if he is played alongside a world class striker... will get more space and can see him creating and scorig many goals... will be a big name for us if we only sign 1 striker and decide to play kuyt/crouch/voronin as 2nd strikers

by **ivor_the_injun** » Mon May 28, 2007 12:59 pm

You only realise the true value of Alonso when he's not in the side. Some people have a weird perception of him being ineffectual when he's not pinging in shots from 40 yards out, but for me he's arguably the best player at the club. He's been far better than Gerrard this season, put it that way, and it's not like Xabi's had the best season himself.

With a World Cup-free summer, he'll hopefully hit the ground running next season. If it's in a side other than ours, then I think that's a massive mistake.

by **Sabre** » Mon May 28, 2007 1:05 pm

u want a squad of some 30 class players who are all content with being rotated at a regular basis... each position with as many players offering as many different things as possible..
each is brilliant in what they do and is hence 'indispensable' in your books... that would work... in a perfect world... if we were owned by the world bank and managed by a certain Mr. Benitez

Barcelona are looking for a holding midfielder. And this are their midfielders

Marc Crosas ESP
Sousa Deco (20) POR 28 28 (0) 13 1 1
Giovanni Dos Santos MEX
Ludovic Giuly FRA 27 15 (12) 0 1 3
Andres Iniesta (13) ESP 36 27 (9) 4 0 6
Thiago Motta BRE 12 5 (7) 4 1 0
Pitu ESP
Ronaldinho Gaucho (10) BRE
Creus Xavi (8)

From them, Ronaldinho, Xavi, Deco, And Iniesta are of great level, and Dos Santos and Giuly are squad players and the others, back ups. Not to mention they have a certain Bojan in their youth team

In LFC, you have Mascherano, Alonso and Gerrard as top level in the midfield, so if you sell one of them, then you're already 2 steps below Barcelona.

Of course in football anything can happen in one match, but if we really want to compete in 3 competitions, then we need that kind of depth. That's all. And it's not unattainable, IMHO! Not now the americans have come.

If you don't want to look Barcelona, then look Arsenal and Manchester. And compare the depth.

by **112-1077774096** » Mon May 28, 2007 1:11 pm

i cant believe people are saying dont sell kuyt, what exactly has he done to warrant beingin our team, apart from run around a lot, correct me if i am wrong but isnt it the strikers job to score goals, and how many has he scored?

by **66-1112520797** » Mon May 28, 2007 1:11 pm

ivor_the_injun wrote:You only realise the true value of Alonso when he's not in the side. Some people have a weird perception of him being ineffectual when he's not pinging in shots from 40 yards out, but for me he's arguably the best player at the club. He's been far better than Gerrard this season, put it that way, and it's not like Xabi's had the best season himself.

With a World Cup-free summer, he'll hopefully hit the ground running next season. If it's in a side other than ours, then I think that's a massive mistake.

Arguably the best player at out club ?

Had a better season than Gerrard ?

I'm sorry mate but to say the least, I disagree with you there.

by **account deleted by request** » Mon May 28, 2007 1:12 pm

ivor_the_injun wrote:You only realise the true value of Alonso when he's not in the side. Some people have a weird perception of him being ineffectual when he's not pinging in shots from 40 yards out, but for me he's arguably the best player at the club. He's been far better than Gerrard this season, put it that way, and it's not like Xabi's had the best season himself.

With a World Cup-free summer, he'll hopefully hit the ground running next season. If it's in a side other than ours, then I think that's a massive mistake.

Last season we only lost 1 game when Xabi wasn't in the side, Newcastle away (I may be wrong ) So I don't really see where you get that from Ivor?

We also only lost 1 game when he came on as a sub Arsenal in the league cup.

by **kunilson** » Mon May 28, 2007 1:19 pm

oooooooooooh
we got the best midfield in the world,
we got xabi alonso, momo sissoko, gerrard and mascher-a-no...

This song is getting ruined by the day! talks of alonso and sissoko leaving and all....but alonso HAS to stay. has been a great player for us and is the sort of consistant quality u need in a team challenging for major honours. ive said before this has not been his best season, and it hasn't...but it doesnt mean he had a terrible season, just not as good as the high quality he has shown before... rafa holds him in high regard.....alonso is an important part of the team and yes we do need him

as for kuyt, give him another season and we will see what type of striker he will really be...this season he had enough chances but didnt seem to play in the opposition penalty box enough, more work in midfield and playing off another striker....if we can get in a few more attack-minded players to take some of that responsibility off him, we will see if he can get more goals. As he is, i think he is doing a good job, dont forget how much he has been through personally this year too.....

by **aCe'** » Mon May 28, 2007 1:38 pm

Sabre wrote:
u want a squad of some 30 class players who are all content with being rotated at a regular basis... each position with as many players offering as many different things as possible..
each is brilliant in what they do and is hence 'indispensable' in your books... that would work... in a perfect world... if we were owned by the world bank and managed by a certain Mr. Benitez

Barcelona are looking for a holding midfielder. And this are their midfielders

Marc Crosas ESP
Sousa Deco (20) POR 28 28 (0) 13 1 1
Giovanni Dos Santos MEX
Ludovic Giuly FRA 27 15 (12) 0 1 3
Andres Iniesta (13) ESP 36 27 (9) 4 0 6
Thiago Motta BRE 12 5 (7) 4 1 0
Pitu ESP
Ronaldinho Gaucho (10) BRE
Creus Xavi (8)

From them, Ronaldinho, Xavi, Deco, And Iniesta are of great level, and Dos Santos and Giuly are squad players and the others, back ups. Not to mention they have a certain Bojan in their youth team

In LFC, you have Mascherano, Alonso and Gerrard as top level in the midfield, so if you sell one of them, then you're already 2 steps below Barcelona.

Of course in football anything can happen in one match, but if we really want to compete in 3 competitions, then we need that kind of depth. That's all. And it's not unattainable, IMHO! Not now the americans have come.

If you don't want to look Barcelona, then look Arsenal and Manchester. And compare the depth.

wokkay...mmm... now that uv brought it up.... let the show begin:

start with england...

ManUtd:

Paul Scholes - Michael Carrick - Darren Fletcher -Oshea ?

only Scholes is class...Carrick is a very good player who still has alot to prove beforebeing regarded class
thas 2 players 1 of which is better than any of Gerrard, Mascherano, Alonso... dare i add sissoko ?!
and they only play 2 cenral midfielders so ? whats your point exactly ?!

Arsenal:

Fabregas - Gilberto - mmmm... - Denilson - Diaby ? - Rosicky?

still dont see where you are ging with this.. but id take gerrard-mascherano-sissoko ahead of their bunch any day of the week

Chelsea:

heres where it gets interesting

BALLACK - LAMPARD - MAKELELE - ESSIEN - mikel - diarra

they play 4 central midfielders and they have the most impressive central midfield lineup in club level recent history.. cant honestly compare any side to Chelsea

Barcelona...

Xavi - Deco - Iniesta - Thiaggo Motta

they play 3 in the center... one holding with xavi and deco given less resticted roles... they often play Marques and Edmilson to cover up because T.Motta is absolute craaap.. make no mistake about it.. if they had any of mascherano/alonso/sissoko...hed be starting every game ahead of the other plyers..

where exactly where you going with this sabre ?

we have more depth in that CM than most if not all other clubs do... chelsea aside...

we only play 2 in the center more often than not so... gerrard is an auto pick... other spot is between Alonso/Masch/Sissoko... we can afford to lose xabi no ?!
other teams seem to be doing okay without having 4 class players competing for 1 spot no ?!

by **Scottbot** » Mon May 28, 2007 1:52 pm

bigmick wrote:We'd definately miss Alonso in my opinion as he's one of our best players. That said, whether or not he should be allowed to leave largely depends upon our capability in the transfer market. If, for instance we need to sell Alonso in order to pay for Samuel Eto, or alternatively we can sign Darren Bent and keep Xabi, then I've got to be honest and say that the need for a really World Class striker would probably lead me to cash in on the Spaniard. He is after all one of the few players we have who would command a huge fee (in excess of fifteen million pounds, Gerrard and possibly Carragher are the only other two) and if we really need the cash, then out of the three he is the one who would appear to be most expendable to me.

That's a good post and this is a decent thread. I've got mixed feelings on this one. I think Xabi is quality and i've always been VERY impressed with the unsung stuff he does for the team plus the way the defensive part of his game has come on in leaps and bounds. I haven't seen the OPTA stats for this season but no doubt he will be in the top 5 for tackles again. He hasn't made so many killer balls or defence splittling passes this season but there's no doubt he has played deeper than in previous years. I'm really not sure what Rafa intends to do with his midfield because he has hoarded so much quality it's untrue. While this new kid comes with a great pedigree (looking at the list who won that award) you have to wonder when and where the kid will play? It's true the team has been set-up to play around Alonso the past few years and Benitez has had several veiled digs at Gerrard's occasional lack of tactical nous over the years BUT you can sense a bit more trust there now. A lot of posters claim the Captain has had a poor season but that is ridiculous. For me, he has been comfortably our best player, not the roy of Rovers who won an FA Cup by by himself. He's has turned into the consumate team player this season, more professional, not trying to do it all on his own, trusting his teamates. Quite simply, he has played a lot more like Xabi Alonso. I get the impression Rafa might be ready to build the side around Gerrard (as others have suggested) because it seems clear that he doesn't favour a Gerrard/Alonso axis in the middle unless he is forced into it (as he was this season).

However, i would put money on our European performances sufferring if Xabi was to go. His influence in European games is massive. Don't think i'll ever forget the masterclass away at Juventus (after a 3 month lay-off!) in 05.

by **Sabre** » Mon May 28, 2007 2:00 pm

Barcelona...

Xavi - Deco - Iniesta - Thiaggo Motta

they play 3 in the center... one holding with xavi and deco given less resticted roles... they often play Marques and Edmilson to cover up because T.Motta is absolute craaap.. make no mistake about it.. if they had any of mascherano/alonso/sissoko...hed be starting every game ahead of the other plyers..

where exactly where you going with this sabre ?

I don't expect you to accept my point, especially when you remove Ronaldinho from the Barcelona list. WTF is he, a striker? he's an attacking midfielder. And my point is quite simply that we hadn't a deep enough squad, and we only fixed that situation with some late signings like Mascherano, who came in winter. So if you want to have another depth problem selling one of the midfield key players, do so.

It's pretty clear where I want to get, I'm not so sure you want to understand though. If you still don't understand, read Aiestaran's interview, he explains better, knows a lot of footie, and know our squad well, also the opposition squads.

However, i would put money on our European performances sufferring if Xabi was to go. His influence in European games is massive. Don't think i'll ever forget the masterclass away at Juventus (after a 3 month lay-off!) in 05.

The players of the squad with more minutes in Europe have been, Reina, first, Carraguer second, and Alonso the replaceable, third. The first two with around 1050 mins IIRC, and Alonso with bare 1000.

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