Liverpool FC Forum

Bamaga man wrote:

Oh sh.ite I'm going to end up arguing every point aren't I?   

What do you want me to say ............. ' good post Rafa ' ?

s@int wrote:I don't know mate, I am no doctor but its not like he has a bad knee or something. I mean what are the chances of septic arthritis coming back. His groin injuries have been sorted and shouldnt recur so in all likelyhood hes due a good spell of fitness. A fit Harry Kewell is certainly better than any left sided player we have and also most players we could get.

If we sold him we would be lucky to get £3/5million but how much would his replacement cost. I know we have this young argentinian coming next season (Leto?) but he will need time to settle and adapt. Till he's ready and proven I would stick with Kewell.

Bamaga man wrote:

Would you renew his £60,000+ contract? 
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No I'd give him a contract of 10,000 a week and he can pay us back in football for lost time.

s@int wrote:As for Kuyt I think he has a few problems that need attention and a few that we will just have to live with.

1/First touch - I remember reading an article about Dennis Bergkamp in which the writer was amazed at Bergkamps atitude to passes in training. Bergkamp kept telling the other players to hit the ball harder at him, "as its your job to get the ball to me, its my job to control it, you just make sure it gets to me!"
While Kuyt will never be in the same league as Bergkamp when it comes to first touch I am sure it will improve as he adapts to the speed of our league.

2/Speed - Looks slow to me both in thought and speed off the mark.

3/Finishing - Not a clinical finisher in the Fowler/Owen mould more of a hit it hard and hope like Cisse

4/ Heading - Wins surprisingly few headers for such big player

5/Movement - Does a lot of running outside the box but his movement in the box is poor, does little to create space, get in front of or drift away from his marker.

6/Left foot - maybe its lack of confidence or maybe its just a swinger (I'm not sure as I have never seen him use it    )

1) AGREED! poor first touch

2) Speed and Pace is overrated imo, if you show excellent movement and excellent off the ball situations then speed is nothing.

3) Needs to work on that, maybe he should have something to calm his nerve down when he shoots 

4) Disagree, doesn't offer much an ariel threat and his headers are poor

5) He is playing too deep thats what is isolating his movement

6) I dont think that matters does it?

metalhead wrote:

s@int wrote:As for Kuyt I think he has a few problems that need attention and a few that we will just have to live with.

1/First touch - I remember reading an article about Dennis Bergkamp in which the writer was amazed at Bergkamps atitude to passes in training. Bergkamp kept telling the other players to hit the ball harder at him, "as its your job to get the ball to me, its my job to control it, you just make sure it gets to me!"
While Kuyt will never be in the same league as Bergkamp when it comes to first touch I am sure it will improve as he adapts to the speed of our league.

2/Speed - Looks slow to me both in thought and speed off the mark.

3/Finishing - Not a clinical finisher in the Fowler/Owen mould more of a hit it hard and hope like Cisse

4/ Heading - Wins surprisingly few headers for such big player

5/Movement - Does a lot of running outside the box but his movement in the box is poor, does little to create space, get in front of or drift away from his marker.

6/Left foot - maybe its lack of confidence or maybe its just a swinger (I'm not sure as I have never seen him use it    )

1) AGREED! poor first touch

2) Speed and Pace is overrated imo, if you show excellent movement and excellent off the ball situations then speed is nothing.

3) Needs to work on that, maybe he should have something to calm his nerve down when he shoots 

4) Disagree, doesn't offer much an ariel threat and his headers are poor

5) He is playing too deep thats what is isolating his movement

6) I dont think that matters does it?

I think you are actually agreeing with me on point 4 mate 
and point 6 his lack of a left foot means its easier for defenders to prevent him shooting if they know he can only shoot with his right, and its also harder for him when the ball comes to him if he has to keep switching it to his other foot.

s@int wrote:6/Left foot - maybe its lack of confidence or maybe its just a swinger (I'm not sure as I have never seen him use it    )

eds wrote:Here is my retort to your ‘invalid’ and ‘unsubstantiated’ points:

“A response to your points.

1) His credentials as manager of Valencia are the reason he was brought here, they prove he has the attributes at the highest level. It shows Liverpool fans that this is a guy with top, top credentials and as such should have trust in him. I was not saying his successes at Valencia are a reason not to hold him accountable at Liverpool - they merely show why we should respect him and give him time to develop the club under new ownership - as yet he has had little time to do so.”

And when did I or anyone else state that we aren’t respecting Rafa for his past record? This isn’t a debate about that, it is a debate of what he has done so far and what everyone’s expectation is for the next year or two. I think giving him 4-5 years at the club is ample time to see what he has done. Next year will be his 4th year at the club if he delivers another 3rd or 4th finishing 10points or more behind 1st it will be another sign of him slipping, just the same way the goggled-eyed Frenchy lost it in his last few seasons. You keep trying to go off in tangents on your argument as I will point out time and time again.

”2) I did not say we should have blind optimism or blind faith towards Rafael Benitez, it is just a case of being reasonable and putting things in perspective. I remember the unsuccessful days under Sounness and later Evans in the 90's, we have come out of that period and are gradually rebuilding the club. I would draw analagy with how Man Utd were relatively unsuccessful a decade before Ferguson turned up, even then it took him 5 years to build his own side. Mourinho is an exception because he inherited top quality players and was privy to an unlimited transfer budget.”

If you don’t have blind optimism or whatever you want to call it, why don’t you accept everything that I have stated, as everything I have said is fact and have put EVERYTHING into perspective (for example Sissoko can’t pass – can’t see him getting any better, we haven’t come close to winning the premiership under Rafa yet, etc, etc ALL FACT).

As for you comments on rebuilding the club, we have been rebuilding the club for almost 2 decades now. Now lets just say that Rafa leaves in 2-3 years time without winning the EPL, will you still see us as rebuilding? Because I think that is a ridiculous argument to use, why bring up Sounness and Evans, what does that have to do with Rafa and Liverpool in 2007? Nothing? Another tangent you are waffling on about. I can see the parallels between Fergie and the Scum but he did it in five years and CONSISTENTLY showed improvement and that he was up for the task. If we use the Rafa barometer 5th, 3rd, 3rd(most likely) for the last three seasons (I won’t include points tally because that is even more embarrassing) next season is crucial because if it’s 5th, 3rd, 3rd, 3rd (or 4th ) I will definitely have a point won’t I?

”3) Yes, we have had a poor season by our standards and it hurts, but compared to previous league positions under Souness, Evans and Houllier - it is clear that we have made Europe 3 years in a row, won 2 major trophies and have our best players tied to long contracts. The evidence is there, it is a case of building, as I said before, without the funds Man Utd/Chelsea have had it is not going to happen in the space of two/three years. We didn't have the capacity to go and bring in players worth tripple the value of our highest signing like Rooney £27m, Ferdinand £30m, Veron £30m. It is with the help of the new owners who will bring invaluable marketing skills that we may be able to compete on a regular basis in the transfer market. “

Your arguments are flawed and full of holes. Under Souness and Evans reaching the champions league was much harder as you actually had to win the domestic title or if lucky finish 2nd? Has Rafa won us the League or even finished 2nd? Has he? Answer! The truth is deafening isn’t it?

We have made the champions league 3 years in a row! So what? This is a bear minimum for a Liverpool manager these days! We have won a wonderful CL final and an even better FA Cup final but what does that have to do with winning the league, surely you must understand there are different dynamics involved in winning a knock-out competition as compared to a 38 grueling round competition. They are different, as I have stated before comparing apples and bananas.

And as for your last statement wouldn’t you agree that we should now definitely hold Rafa accountable next season as he can now compete financially with the likes of Scumchester or Cheat$ki. Wouldn’t it look bad if he finished 3rd or 4th next season with the “he hasn’t had enough money to spend” card not being able to be used next season by the “In Rafa we trust” brigade, but as I have stated and keep re-iterating there will still be people on this forum next season saying “Almost there give him, a few more seasons?” Worrying, very worrying!

4) I was not comparing the attributes of Zidane to Sissoko, they have two very different styles of play. I was putting in perspective the time it can take to fully develop into a world class player. He was 24 when he moved to Juventus for £3m - it took him the following two seasons to establish himself as world class. We differ in opinion on the potential of Sissoko - fine, but nobody can categorically say he WILL be this or he WILL NOT be that, we are making subjective opinions and I have expressed my opinion. You seem to have a problem with this concept. To your remark re. 'the poor black man in England', don't you think if you went over to work in Mali it would take some adapting? Again, that was my point - nothing more nothing less.

Who said that you were comparing Zidane and Sissoko, what I said is that Zidane had mastered the game at a very early age, he had the ESSENTIAL skills to become a world class player. GET THIS THROUGH YOUR THICK SKULL, you can’t become a world class player if you suck at some basic technical requirements; passing, shooting and offensive awareness. Sissoko lacks some very important basic traits, and no matter how much you harp on about his excellent tackling and energy this DOES NOT MEAN HE WILL BECOME WORLD CLASS! I won’t bother continuing my argument on this it is apparent you don’t understand this and never will, it’s NOT a subjective opinion because we have seen enough to judge that he is a good player but will never be anything more than that.

As for the “working in England” and adapting I am sure if I was being paid 40,000 – 60,000 pounds to this AND THIS ONLY I wouldn’t have a problem at all in adapting. I would also have world class facilities and trainers, language instructors and some very handy people at my disposal to help me settle in. So please stop with this ridiculous argument, he is a paid professional and blaming his ineptitude on things like this just shows you are clutching at straws and can not convincingly justify anyone why Sissoko is the way he is.

5) As I explained in my previous post, in my opinion Baros lacked fundamental attributes to become a top player. Sissoko, in my view is different, he has shown last season what he is capable of, that is why I make the distinction in class between the two players. In adddition Baros never came close to player of the season - last year Sissoko was a revelation, as backed up by some of the senior players such as Carragher who thought he was outstanding. I don't know which matches you were watching last season but he has shown he is capable of producing top performances. Reaching a definitive level of consistency at a young age is very difficult, that is why he needs time, he has dipped in form recently but the ability remains. Again - we can agree to disagree, no problem.

And yet here you sit back and admit Baros lacking fundamental attributes to becoming a top player, why can’t you see that Sissoko ALSO LACKS FUNDAMENTAL ATTRIBUTES that make him a top player??? Why is your mindset so negative on Baros, yet when referring to Sissoko the rose coloured spectacles come on and you can’t admit that he sucks in some very KEY areas like passing, dribbling, shooting, etc. I will be impressed if you can answer this but I know you won’t because you have no answer for this and will go off into tangents like “Carragher thinks he is a top bloke bu/lls/hi..t” and judging his ENTIRE PERFORMANCE on how he can tackle everyone on the field doggedly and be judged as a “top performance”. The mind really does f.ar/kin boggle? ??

6) Kuyt has shown some excellent performances, agreed that he could have scored more - he admits that himself but he has only had one season - you cannot judge prematurely. Owen, Rush and Fowler are natural goalscorers, they are unique. Thierry Henry did not light up the premiership immediately if you recall - I'm not comparing him to Kuyt just showing it takes time sometimes. When I say we lack cutting edge up front I am complicit with the idea that in the summer we need a natural finisher, that doesn't render Kuyt a poor player, he can still play a big part and I believe he will. Regarding the right mix of players, I am saying Kuyt can play a part in the attack when Benitez needs him, different games require different strategies. We can disagree over the utility of Kuyt, I have no problem with that but no-one can categorically state he WILL BE this or he WILL NOT be that - its a  matter of opinion.

I am not going to spend much time on this one as I agree with some of your points, but I am still skeptical on Kuyt as I don’t think he is a poor player in saying that if you admit he is a part player, don’t you think spending almost 10 millions pounds on a part player is very expensive??? I would rather have 2 very good forwards (who will set us back quite a bit) and as you say “unique” goalscorers. These players can make a goal from nothing, Kuyt is not this nor can he be used as a bit-part player, this role should go to Crouch who can be used more effectively in different formations and tactics due to his height and better scoring rate.

7) Regarding Benitez's spending I have explained my view in my previous post. You seem to think your opinion is final, exhibited in your view that only Reina and Alonso have improved the team dramatically 'end of'. In my opinion, Agger, Sissoko, Kuyt, Crouch, Mascherano and Garcia have also had as big an impact as Alonso and Reina. For example, Crouch has enabled us to hold the ball better in attack and creates for the team, something we lacked with Morientes and Baros. That is a notable improvement which most Liverpool fans can see during Benitez's tenure. He has made some poor signings as well in my view, but, when you consider Man utd spent £30m on Veron alone, that is probably the combined gross equivalent to what Benitez has spent poorly on. Again though - we differ in opinion on who is poor or not. You can only sign what is available at the time in the market with the budget you have. Do you think you are better qualified than Benitez and his experienced backroom staff in identifying what is right for the team and on the budget available? Who else do you sign for £2m when you are desperate for a full back? He would not sign a player if he did not think it was worth it.

My view is final because at the end of the day Reina and Alonso ARE the only ones that have improved our team, how you can possibly suggest Agger, Sissoko, Kuyt, Crouch and Garcia in the same breath just shows your lack of understanding of the game. Reina and Alonso would walk pretty much into any top team’s starting eleven like a Barcelona or  Milan the other players you mentioned would be lucky if they made the bench. The reason I haven’t mentioned Monster Mash is because I actually think he can become WORLD CLASS unlike Sissoko he doesn’t have the deficiencies that can hinder his development, but time will only tell.

As for your stupid question am I better qualified that Rafa or his “experienced” backroom staff, I will answer that I am? Using your ‘infallible’ logic I have to be as I have never been given the chance to manage Liverpool FC and until I do I can’t prove to anyone that I am better than Rafa. Ask a stupid question get a stupid answer!

A word of advice, sonny Jim don’t ever use the “are you better qualified than Rafa” in a debate because it makes you look un-educated and desperate in the fact that you have to resort to this ridiculous argument.

8) I was comparing the value of the signings made by Benitez to that of Houllier i.e. the same players were signed for the same money. For example, Diouf: £10m Kuyt: £10m Diao:£5m Sissoko: £5m. To compare the ones you suggested I do...... Diao: £5m, Zenden: Free, Diouf: £10m Morientes:£6.5m ,Cheyrou: £5m Gonzales: £5m.
The quality signings made by both managers I will compare in value and quality....... Hyypia:£3m excellent signing Agger: £6m excellent signing and future replacement for Hyypia, Hamaan: £8m decent signing better with maturity under Benitez, Alonso: £10m top quality young international, Sissoko: £5m excellent prospect proven ability, Mccallister:£? excellent experienced player, Reina:£6m record number of clean sheets but questionable in the air Dudek:£? Champions league winner under Benitez, Decent goalkeeper but too unreliable, Riise:£4m excellent signing, developed under Benitez significantly, Aurelio: Free  decent quality with left foot, injury prone, little chance to prove himself.
Overall I would say that the comparitive signings of the two managers sways in favour of Benitez and that the signings of Benitez have improved with time. Houllier was still signing players like Diouf and Diao - big money signings who were flops, towards the end of his time at the club.

Haha I laughing at you now because I have ripped your "arguments" apart and this one is not much better. Your ranking criteria is very subjective as I have already invalidated your previous argument by comparing Rafa’s best signings and with Houllier’s worst. Where abouts in your previous argument did you state you were comparing signings based on value and quantity, NOWHERE, you are just back-tracking! So you want to compare money wasted by both, then let me use my own criteria;

Rafa
FREE    Zenden, Nunez
2-5 million  Gonzalez, Josemi
5-8 million  Morientes,

Houllier

FREE         Litamenan and McCallister
2-5 million  Hyppia, Henchoz, Finnan
5-8 million  Kewell

See it’s very EASY to distort and mis-represent a one-sided argument using ridiculous comparisons, now stop it really your making a fool of yourself and can’t admit that you have backed yourself into a corner with this one.

9) Finally, I did not say 'Rafa's Demise' - you 'twit'. I said 'to constantly barrack him when his record is admirable and progress empirical is pathetic'. That is a fair statement, you are whining perpetually about his performance as manager, he shown his capabilities at the highest level at both Valencia and Liverpool. He is not infalable like you seem to think you are, he is doing his best under the circumstances to revive the success of the past. Like I said, it took Ferguson five years to fully establish a team capable of winning titles. Benitez has had two and a half years and he's already won the Champions league with an incredibly depleted squad, then the FA cup and a record points total in the second season. The third season isn't yet over, but sure it needs to improve in the league, it will come with time. You seem to have a problem in understanding that rebuilding a club takes time and is a process, it doesn't happen overnight.

You can continue to pick holes in Rafa for as long as you like, the real Liverpool fans who attend games and know the players are acutely aware of how difficult it will be to breakthrough to the top of the league but they share the belief that under the current manager it will happen. Ideally we would win the title every seaon but if the development takes two more seasons until we achieve it, I would rather be patient, supportive and constructive rather than oust the manager and wait another decade.

My criticism is constructive, analytical and in context, yours is quite the opposite, 'comparing apples with bananas' - real constructive and analytical that one!!!

How can you possibly state I am whinning perpetually about Rafa’s performance? On one single post? What planet are you from? Have you not heard the great things I have said about the man in my reply to you? Signing Reina, Mascherano and Alonso has been an enormous enhancements to the club, winning the CL league and FA Cup have been fantastic achievements?? Or have you chosen to ignore this seeing as it doesn’t suit your agenda?  When did I say I was infallible I used the arrogance in my debate as humour and to antagonize you, something which you are too stupid to understand as you have fallen into the trap of thinking that I think of myself as being “infalliable”, idiot of the highest order!

How long does this so called “rebuilding” need to take place? Haven’t we been rebuilding for the last 17 years now? He can win as many league cups, FA Cups and Champions League titles but in the end coming 3rd every year more than 10pts behind 2nd will not deter my views, thank-you very much.

As for saying that you are a “true” fan because you go to games and know how the players truly feel about Rafa. You have shown yourself to be a stupid, arrogant and assumption driven little prat. WHO DARE YOU QUESTION MY LOYALTY TO THIS CLUB BECAUSE YOU ASSUME YOURSELF TO BE BETTER THAN ME BECAUSE YOU GO TO GAMES AND HAVE A SO CALLED UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT THE PLAYERS ACTUALLY FEEL. FARK OFF!


None of your arguments are constructive, analytical or in context, they are all assumptions and mis-informed arguments driven by illogical or incoherent babbling as you go off into too many tangents.

If anyone has bothered to read my entire post, they can clearly admit that I have out-argued any so called argument, tangent or waffle that you have presented.

GAME. SET. MATCH.