Liverpool FC Forum

by **Effes** » Tue Nov 14, 2006 3:07 am

Gerrard had to start the game in the middle IMO - we couldn't afford to go into that game with a weakened spine.

by **112-1077774096** » Tue Nov 14, 2006 3:13 am

the problem is we had 2 players out of position in midfield in gerrard and zenden, when we could have played with no playes out of position, gerrard in the middle, pennant on the right. ok we may have still lost but it would have deflected the flack from rafa a little.

he needs to stop this stubborness and trying to prove he is right to persevere before it is too late.

i am surprised people are still making excuses and making comments like 'in rafa we trust', just look at the figures guys, they speak for themselves.

i still want him as manager but i want him to swallow his pride and admit that his formation is failing us away from home (although on sunday its the same formation as at home and we still got spanked), and his team selection is also failing us at the moment.

i noticed a comment form him yesterday somewhere along the lines of he is still trying to find the right blend, i was gobsmacked (good word and underused

). rafa mate if you dont know the right blend so far into the season we are truly fucked

by **Ace Ventura** » Tue Nov 14, 2006 2:10 pm

peewee wrote:
Ace Ventura wrote:I disagree, i think he played Zenden because he thought it was better than starting with Pennant, as Pennant has not done anything so far.

and zenden has done what exactly??

He hasnt done much tbh, but has experience of playing big match games throughout the whole of Europe.
He was also MOM against Birmingham and had a decent game centre midfield against Chelsea in the Community shield, admittedly it was only Birmingham and they were extremley poor. But i think i would of been happier AT THAT TIME with Zenden starting and Gerrard on the right.
The only thing that bothered me was the timing of substitutions. In both the United and Arsenal games being 1-0 down at halftime imo we should change things immediately. Rafa waits 10-15 minutes then makes the change, by then we have virtually given up and the opposition take total control. He needs to be bolder with changing things when they are not going right for me.

by **account deleted by request** » Tue Nov 14, 2006 2:23 pm

Ace Ventura wrote:
peewee wrote:
Ace Ventura wrote:I disagree, i think he played Zenden because he thought it was better than starting with Pennant, as Pennant has not done anything so far.

and zenden has done what exactly??

He hasnt done much tbh, but has experience of playing big match games throughout the whole of Europe.
He was also MOM against Birmingham and had a decent game centre midfield against Chelsea in the Community shield, admittedly it was only Birmingham and they were extremley poor. But i think i would of been happier AT THAT TIME with Zenden starting and Gerrard on the right.
The only thing that bothered me was the timing of substitutions. In both the United and Arsenal games being 1-0 down at halftime imo we should change things immediately. Rafa waits 10-15 minutes then makes the change, by then we have virtually given up and the opposition take total control. He needs to be bolder with changing things when they are not going right for me.

Regarding the timing of substitutions. I was surprised when I read Fowlers book that players consider it more of an insult to be taken off at H/T in front of their own team mates, than to be taken off 5 mins later in front of the whole stadium. It might explain something that always puzzled me about players being substituted almost immediatelly after H/T.

Back on topic, I agree that Rafa could have been bolder with his subs, perhaps taking a leaf out of Moaninho's book and making 3 subs early would have been a positive declaration of intent.

by **Ace Ventura** » Tue Nov 14, 2006 2:33 pm

Tbh mate if the players are not doing it and i was manager i wouldnt give a fook if they were p!ssed off at the timing of the substitution.
Not enough is done in big games to change things if we go behind, its as if we just resign ourselves to the inevitable.

by **112-1077774096** » Tue Nov 14, 2006 3:12 pm

yeah, if they havent done it for 45 minutes why persevere until 20 minutes from the end when we dont look like scoring. it baffles me

by **ConnO'var** » Tue Nov 14, 2006 4:55 pm

Been away for 3 weeks in the desert.... Haven't had any news bout how we've been doing until today. Haven't had a chance to watch any of our recent games either. Trawling through this thread, it looks like plenty of people felt that we showed a distinct lack of heart. Were we really that bad?

Would like to watch the match and make up my own mind.... anybody have some sort of link where it's possible to watch the match? .... else I'll have to wait for the repeat on thursday and I'd rather not; seeing as I've got f!@kall to do the next few days.

Appreciate it if somebody could send a link or something....

Cheers.

by **66-1120597113** » Tue Nov 14, 2006 6:44 pm

I really cant believe nobody in this thread has pointed out our negative passing on Sunday!I watched the game bemused as time and time again we won posession passed it about midfield..only to pass it backwards to defenders who predictably hit long balls that came to nothing,hence giving posession back to Arsenal who had vastly more intent and imagination going forward!
TBH it looked as if some of the players looked as if they were clueless as what to do with the ball when they approached the Arsenal half..this was my biggest concern.
We never believed we could win the game.

It would be easy for me to pin the blame on certain players as most have done above..i dont think i'll bother though.If football has not taught us all by now that a player can be dire one week and a hero the next..maybe some will never grasp why we love the game so much!

For the record i find it disgusting the things people have said about our captain on here!Some of the comments take the 'support' out of the term supporters as we like to label ourselves on here.
People seem to have very short memories..i dont think anyone needs to point out how time and time again in the past he has singlehandedly lifted our team by the scruff and inspired them to victory!
Gerrard has the ability to do what 99% of world players could only wish to do!We should be greatful that he is ours and rise above the temptation to sh.it on him when he's having a bad few games!Steven Gerrad will be back....be sure of it!

Its also very easy to call for Raffas head..To me this is just hideous after what he has done for LFC!His biggest problem to me is that he believes equally in all members of the squad,maybe this is his biggest mistake.He trusts them all equally to do a job when clearly there is a gulf in class between certain members of the squad.
In fairness to the manager he must shoulder some of the blame for our poor away form...but he can only lead the players to the line on matchday,after they cross it its down to them to perform.

Our biggest problem now is confidence...The team need to believe in themselves now especially away from home.Its a big test of character now,the players are all clearly hurt and deflated.Its gonna be hard to pick the away form up but they are good enough to do it starting this weekend at M'boro!
Personally i hope we thump Boro about 6 fuc.king 0 and Gerrard scores a hattrick...it'll be fun coming on here then and reading all the posts from the same shallow kunts that are happy to put our captain,manager and team down as a whole when the chips are down.

Maybe some on here should look the word 'SUPPORT' up in the dictionary.
It hurts us all when the team are playing bad,me as much as anyone on here.The bottom line is we have too much quality and too good a manager for our form not to improve sooner rather than later!

by **red37** » Tue Nov 14, 2006 6:48 pm

BarryBelfast wrote:I really cant believe nobody in this thread has pointed out our negative passing on Sunday!I watched the game bemused as time and time again we won posession passed it about midfield..only to pass it backwards to defenders who predictably hit long balls that came to nothing,hence giving posession back to Arsenal who had vastly more intent and imagination going forward!

ive tried to mention similar things in here:

http://www.liverpoolfc-newkit.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=19732

by **floppo** » Tue Nov 14, 2006 7:16 pm

On the subject of centre mid, I admit I wanted Zenden to play there before the game but it obviously didn't work. We certainly didn't have drive or anyone running beyond the strikers from that position, which Gerrard would have given us.

I think it's time to play Gerrard and Alonso together and see how they do, also give Pennant a starting place and a run of consecutive games. The title is over for this year and if Rafa thinks he still hasn't found the right 'blend', I think he should pick a midfield four and stick with them over the course of the next few games.

We've played all the big teams, so it's the perfect opportunity to give the new lads their chance. Play Stevie & Xabi in the middle and Pennant & Gonzales wide and see how that goes. Nothing left to lose at the moment, so I would give that midfield four a run of games.

by **stmichael** » Tue Nov 14, 2006 8:46 pm

The bottom line here is that Steven Gerrard is the best crosser at the club, and he can beat ANY full back in the land with his pace power and skill. WHEN HE WANTS TO.

Against the mancs, he didn't go at Evra once. Against Arsenal, he didn't go at Clichy once.

You have to ask yourself why?

My opinion is that he didn't want to do it. If he did want to, then all he had to do was stay out wide, wait for Xabi to give him the ball and then go at the full back.

Criticise Rafa for not playing Gerrard in the middle if you like, that's a legitimate complaint. Don't criticise him for Gerrard doing :censored:

all out wide though, as its not like he isn't capable of doing it.

by **JC_81** » Wed Nov 15, 2006 8:17 pm

A.B. wrote:
So this begs the question, what has happened to team morale? Has the dressing room been unsettled by something? Because I can't think of another reason why we haven't been able to sort this away form before it has come to 5 defeats in a row. Why aren't the players playing for Rafa anymore, has he lost the dressing room? Because it looked like it yesterday. Has his squad rotation pi.ssed the players off as much as us? Or is Rafa not to blame and it's the players alone who are letting us down big time?

Excellent post in general John, but a question for you. How the feck is the locker room lost away but at home it's fine and dandy? You either have it or you don't.

I'm not saying that Benitez hasn't made mistakes, but personaly the players are letting us down more than anyone else at this club. I'm tired of their aftermatch and prematch club, they all seem to know they're but couldn't be bothered to change that on the pitch.

I think that if there is a flaw in the team morale or there are certain players that aren't playing for the manager then it will be more obvious in tough away fixtures when it's backs to the wall and you have to scrap for the result. No crowd behind you, no lion's share of possession and more than 50% of refereeing decisions going to the other team - that's what an away game is in reality. At home against lesser opposition the cracks can be papered over and the talent in the squad can win us games, despite what the general mood in the camp is.

I didn't say I thought the dressing room was lost, but I posed it as a question. I think the statement's probably too strong, but I still maintain that there will be plenty of squad members resentful of the manager right now because of the rotation and occasional baffling team selection. When results are going against us as they are now, this resentment will be even stronger.

On a positive note though, team confidence and morale is quite an easy thing to repair, we just need a few wins, including a couple away from home and we'll be back on track. The talent is still there, Gerrard is still a world class midfielder, and Alonso, Reina and Carra are still top, top players even if they haven't had a great season so far. It's too late to win the title realistically, but we can still have a good season if we get things sorted quickly.

by **metalhead** » Wed Nov 15, 2006 9:17 pm

stmichael wrote:The bottom line here is that Steven Gerrard is the best crosser at the club, and he can beat ANY full back in the land with his pace power and skill. WHEN HE WANTS TO.

Against the mancs, he didn't go at Evra once. Against Arsenal, he didn't go at Clichy once.

You have to ask yourself why?

My opinion is that he didn't want to do it. If he did want to, then all he had to do was stay out wide, wait for Xabi to give him the ball and then go at the full back.

Criticise Rafa for not playing Gerrard in the middle if you like, that's a legitimate complaint. Don't criticise him for Gerrard doing all out wide though, as its not like he isn't capable of doing it.

Agree with you st.mich... Gerrard needs a bang on his head! he needs to show more character and he must play for the team.

by **A.B.** » Wed Nov 15, 2006 9:47 pm

john craig wrote:
A.B. wrote:
So this begs the question, what has happened to team morale? Has the dressing room been unsettled by something? Because I can't think of another reason why we haven't been able to sort this away form before it has come to 5 defeats in a row. Why aren't the players playing for Rafa anymore, has he lost the dressing room? Because it looked like it yesterday. Has his squad rotation pi.ssed the players off as much as us? Or is Rafa not to blame and it's the players alone who are letting us down big time?

Excellent post in general John, but a question for you. How the feck is the locker room lost away but at home it's fine and dandy? You either have it or you don't.

I'm not saying that Benitez hasn't made mistakes, but personaly the players are letting us down more than anyone else at this club. I'm tired of their aftermatch and prematch club, they all seem to know they're but couldn't be bothered to change that on the pitch.

I think that if there is a flaw in the team morale or there are certain players that aren't playing for the manager then it will be more obvious in tough away fixtures when it's backs to the wall and you have to scrap for the result. No crowd behind you, no lion's share of possession and more than 50% of refereeing decisions going to the other team - that's what an away game is in reality. At home against lesser opposition the cracks can be papered over and the talent in the squad can win us games, despite what the general mood in the camp is.

I didn't say I thought the dressing room was lost, but I posed it as a question. I think the statement's probably too strong, but I still maintain that there will be plenty of squad members resentful of the manager right now because of the rotation and occasional baffling team selection. When results are going against us as they are now, this resentment will be even stronger.

On a positive note though, team confidence and morale is quite an easy thing to repair, we just need a few wins, including a couple away from home and we'll be back on track. The talent is still there, Gerrard is still a world class midfielder, and Alonso, Reina and Carra are still top, top players even if they haven't had a great season so far. It's too late to win the title realistically, but we can still have a good season if we get things sorted quickly.

Well said, however I don't buy the whole ''crowd is not behind you''. The atmosphere at Anfield in the Premiership has been quite woeful for some time now and in every home game this season in the league, the away fans made more noise than we did.

Our fans sing more away from home than they do at Anfield, so I don't agree with that statement.

But you summed up pretty much everything, spot on.

I don't think that Gerrard playing on the right is the problem. He played all year last season and it was fine. The problem is that he isn't playing well period. He isn't taking on defenders on the flank or anywhere else on the pitch for that matter for whatever reason.

by **66-1112520797** » Wed Nov 15, 2006 11:37 pm

I agree with what Johns saying and I'll add my own spin on things to try and clear up A.B's question. Even teams like Tottenham and Bolton are capable of beating teams at home, but away from home they dont always cut the mustard. And at the moment away from home we are a medicore football team, its almost like Jekyl and Hyde. But our away fixtures have been much tougher, but still our players have failed to show any 'balls' or fight in these games which is mostly dissapointing. At home our games have been a little easier and as John said its only papered over the cracks until we've come up against decent opposition, and we've been found it in almost every away fixture. So Johns qusetion in Rafa losing the dressing room is still a valid one because the players themselves appear to of givien up and it is truly dissapointing, I hope Rafa can sort this out

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