Liverpool FC Forum

by **red37** » Tue Nov 14, 2006 8:17 am

ive been thinking a lot about our great leaders of the past and each of their differing psychological approaches to their players welfare. (obviously a generalisation that is of little substance to us, other than the purpose of discussion) someone mentioned in another thread the name 'Roy Evans' in the context of his personality-and not his technical acumen- which inspired me to go down this path in the pursuit of some understanding of Rafa Benitez and his own methods applied in handling the players mental state in both his pre-match 'tub-thumping' speech (if he does that at all) and his own post-match 'assessment' of the teams fortunes. win, lose or draw: warts and all.

far from one who strikes me as the 'arm around the shoulder' type, similar to the well documented instances of Gerard Houllier. and there are quite a few accounts of this approach littered throughout the ill fated frenchmans tenure at the club. and in truth, he does 'come across' in that fashion.(im not interested in the comparisons drawn at O.L neither) from that ive read and seen- it is a fair assumption to regard Houllier exactly in that vein pretty much without doubt.

going back to Evans- again, a man who assumes total humility in his general manner and approachability. and having met the fella iam in this case able to qualify that. Prior to that things appear on the surface to be quite different during Souness reign- its easy to comprehend that. and im guessing to a lesser degree within the atmosphere of Dalglish's dressing room there would also have been a well defined system of man-management for the morale of the individual members of his team. (whether that was down to himself/moran/evans or whoever) perhaps a little easier to realise due to the lengthy period of success the club was about to emerge from. maybe the job became difficult for Kenny, as the results began to dry up, so did the spirit within the camp. and managing the players would definitely have become an increasingly thankless task.

further back in time still and the 'lore' and 'legends' abound over Bob Paisley and the archetypal Bill Shankly. on the face of it 'chalk and cheese' - in real terms both were adept at assuaging the utmost respect from pretty much anybody who walked out onto the pitch in battle under their direction. its quite reasonable to assume both men had their own individual 'stamp' of authority that the players (of that era) felt comfortable with. and the accounts of 'shanks' and his well documented methods of 'gee-ing up' his charges are of a quite brilliant nature.

but what of today? and the 'modern day' footballer -pampered beyond all sense of reason let alone necessity. how do they respond to being handled like 'cogs in wheels' ? do they rise up to the parapit and stand on their own two feet..do they demand praise and brownie points for the slightest thing (they arent 5 years old?) or are they of sufficient character as to need nothing more than a clear plan to follow. even if it is written in big, un-joined up writing. well of course they need telling that they are good enough....but not constantly. their own moral fibre and self esteem should carry them part of the way towards that level of personal salvation.

we will of course never get the true measure of Rafa Benitez and what he actually does/says while tending to his work detail by alone listening to his (public) pre/post match thoughts.. quite correctly most of the talk of any real note takes place behind closed doors away from the glaring, greedy eyes and ears of the worlds media. privately, he may well be yet another incarnation of the man we percieve him to be. and he certainly 'appears' to be a true gentleman in whatever respect.

but what about down at ground zero. what does he actually impart to his players that makes them tick at a professional level.

i dont think for one minute the guy is any sort of push-over and certainly not lacking in intellect whatsoever. and its fair to assume he stands little if any nonsense while you are in the same room. recently we heard a quote from Steven Gerrard depicting the boss to be 'cool and calculating' in failing to blurt out too many words of encouragement to his players. how significant, if at all relative that is, will no doubt be of note to the more 'sensitive' types in the squad.

but stubborness is a much less favourable attribute to cope with should you have the heart and soul of the club beating a path to the managers office in denal of its effect.. and my feelings are this may be a viable point. clearly none of the players can question the authority of a man who is plainly 'driven' in his quest and a paragon of unshakeable faith where carrying out his own convictions. the translation of which could easily be percieved by some as indeed 'pig headedness' though a glance at his CV should dispel any doubt. however,perhaps not everything Benitez does is handled in the right way when you end up with players questioning each other on the pitch due to not being able to understand the sentiment and failing to interpret the managers ideas- obviously the lines of communication need re-establishing fast. what is your opinion?

by **babu** » Tue Nov 14, 2006 8:35 am

red37 wrote:but stubborness is a much less favourable attribute to cope with should you have the heart and soul of the club beating a path to the managers office in denal of its effect.. and my feelings are this may be a viable point. clearly none of the players can question the authority of a man who is plainly 'driven' in his quest and a paragon of unshakeable faith where carrying out his own convictions.

you lost me at the part i put in bold. Especially the 'clearly' part. Because, how do you know? Maybe there is plenty of discussion about tactics from players to Rafa (i doubt it, but how do you know).

Frankly i would be suprised if at the very least the captain doesn't sit down with the gaffer to discuss strategy and tactics occasionally.

by **112-1077774096** » Tue Nov 14, 2006 8:36 am

as manager in any business should be approachable by his staff, his staff should be able to talk to him about the business and point out if things can be done better.

a good manager would then implement theses changes if they are viable and likely to succeed, or at least give them a chance to work.

the problem here is i think rafa does not have that attitude, he has a stubborness to prove his ideas to be right, why else would we still have one of the best central midfielders in the world playing on the right week in week out when everyone else in the know about football is shaking their heads in disbelief.

whatever he is doing now is not working so something has to change, coming out with the same 'we created plenty of chances' line doesnt change diddly squat i'm afraid.

the sooner rafa swallows his pride and plays gerrard in the middle with a holding midfielder behind him the better for liverpool football club, we will see more creativity going forward and i am sure we will see more goals

by **66-1112520797** » Tue Nov 14, 2006 8:55 am

peewee wrote:as manager in any business should be approachable by his staff, his staff should be able to talk to him about the business and point out if things can be done better.

a good manager would then implement theses changes if they are viable and likely to succeed, or at least give them a chance to work.

the problem here is i think rafa does not have that attitude, he has a stubborness to prove his ideas to be right, why else would we still have one of the best central midfielders in the world playing on the right week in week out when everyone else in the know about football is shaking their heads in disbelief.

whatever he is doing now is not working so something has to change, coming out with the same 'we created plenty of chances' line doesnt change diddly squat i'm afraid.

the sooner rafa swallows his pride and plays gerrard in the middle with a holding midfielder behind him the better for liverpool football club, we will see more creativity going forward and i am sure we will see more goals

I agree from what I can make of it and by his line-ups it does very much appear that Rafa is a stubborn man. I have to say that looking accross the board at his management skills it seems his man-management skills arent quite up to scratch with all his other ones.

But in saying that he does put his hands up when making a bad signing (Josemi, Pelligrino and Morientes) and shipped them out almost as fast as they came in, so stubborn he maybe but in that respect he's no Houllier and clings on to dead wood.

But back to his man management skills, if he cant grasp the fact that he needs to listen to his players more, or wont/cant put an arm round a player low on confidence every now and then. This will have a detremental effect on the team, and at the moment it does appear to be like this.

by **red37** » Tue Nov 14, 2006 9:14 am

babu wrote:
red37 wrote:but stubborness is a much less favourable attribute to cope with should you have the heart and soul of the club beating a path to the managers office in denal of its effect.. and my feelings are this may be a viable point. clearly none of the players can question the authority of a man who is plainly 'driven' in his quest and a paragon of unshakeable faith where carrying out his own convictions.

you lost me at the part i put in bold. Especially the 'clearly' part. Because, how do you know? Maybe there is plenty of discussion about tactics from players to Rafa (i doubt it, but how do you know).

Frankly i would be suprised if at the very least the captain doesn't sit down with the gaffer to discuss strategy and tactics occasionally.

on reflection it would have perhaps been better for me to have worded that sentence: 'clearly none of the players can doubt the integrity' etc...

which is infact the meaning i was trying to get across anyway. so any dubious use of the offending word should now be perceived as being perfectly crystal clear for the record. as for the part about Gerrard - i find it laughable that you assume it to be a fact im apparantly unable to figure out for myself...
anyway its reassuring to see the petty 'english language' internet police up nice and early. im sure with a little more reading between the lines you could of come to the same conclusion mate.

by **account deleted by request** » Tue Nov 14, 2006 9:44 am

Why should any manager do something he doesnt believe in or believes will not work. A manager has to do what is right for the team, not to curry favour and popularity with the fans or a particular player. Rafa will stand or fall by his decisions, not by listening to people in the media with their agendas or fans like us that have our own particular theories.

If Rafa moves Gerrard back in the middle it will be because he believes its the right decision for the team and not because of pressure from Gerrard or others. Thats what he gets paid for!

Zonal marking doesnt work said the fans amd the media.... It seemed to work last season!

Playing Gerrard on the right is a waste of Gerrards talent.... Didnt hear many complaints last season when Gerrard was player of the year and scored 23 goals.

Rotatation is the problem .... Another media and fans favourite bites the dust!

If Rafa took notice of the media and the fans we wouldnt be as disapointed with this season as we all are, mainly because our expectations would be much lower because we wouldnt have won anything in the last couple of years!

I think we should all give him the time he has earned with his success over the last few years and support him an his decisions and judge him at the end of the season.

Moan about the players because they are the ones who's heads are dropping. I dont imagine Rafa says to the players when they go on the field " If we go a goal down, just give up and we will try again next week!"

I think Rafa has made mistakes, I also believe he will sort things out, get us back on track and make us even stronger. Its only 6 months since we were lifting the F.A. CUP after a great league season . Give the man some credit FFS and lets see where we are come May next year. You never know he may just surprise you.

by **112-1077774096** » Tue Nov 14, 2006 9:54 am

s@int wrote:Give the man some credit FFS and lets see where we are come May next year. You never know he may just surprise you.

are you suggesting not winning away from home while only scoring one goal and having a negative goal difference is all part of some master plan that we dont know about

by **account deleted by request** » Tue Nov 14, 2006 9:59 am

peewee wrote:
s@int wrote:Give the man some credit FFS and lets see where we are come May next year. You never know he may just surprise you.

are you suggesting not winning away from home while only scoring one goal and having a negative goal difference is all part of some master plan that we dont know about

Not quite mate

What I am suggesting is that we have problems , hes the man to fix them and I am confident that he will and that by May we will be reaping the rewards (hopefully).

by **66-1112520797** » Tue Nov 14, 2006 10:03 am

Moan about the players because they are the ones who's heads are dropping. I dont imagine Rafa says to the players when they go on the field " If we go a goal down, just give up and we will try again next week!"

Whether you like it or not, rightly or wrongly the finger will always eventually get pointed at the manager, as it did with Houllier. If the team follow his tactics and do as their told, and lose the big man will have to share the blame, and also stopping their heads from dropping after they go a goal down is another area Rafa has to change as well as the players. Rafa has to install the belief and desire in the players to believe they can go out there and beat anyone. To me Rafa highlights the only weak link in the modern day manager, when it comes down to stratigics, technical comparisons and detail there seems to be no one better, but the man management side of modern day managers with Mourininho the possible exception seem to of forgotton about the basic fundementals of showing a more " human" side to them so to speak.

by **babu** » Tue Nov 14, 2006 10:08 am

red37 wrote:
babu wrote:
red37 wrote:but stubborness is a much less favourable attribute to cope with should you have the heart and soul of the club beating a path to the managers office in denal of its effect.. and my feelings are this may be a viable point. clearly none of the players can question the authority of a man who is plainly 'driven' in his quest and a paragon of unshakeable faith where carrying out his own convictions.

you lost me at the part i put in bold. Especially the 'clearly' part. Because, how do you know? Maybe there is plenty of discussion about tactics from players to Rafa (i doubt it, but how do you know).

Frankly i would be suprised if at the very least the captain doesn't sit down with the gaffer to discuss strategy and tactics occasionally.

on reflection it would have perhaps been better for me to have worded that sentence: 'clearly none of the players can doubt the integrity' etc...

which is infact the meaning i was trying to get across anyway. so any dubious use of the offending word should now be perceived as being perfectly crystal clear for the record. as for the part about Gerrard - i find it laughable that you assume it to be a fact im apparantly unable to figure out for myself...
anyway its reassuring to see the petty 'english language' internet police up nice and early. im sure with a little more reading between the lines you could of come to the same conclusion mate.

whoa, i wasn't having a go at you mate.

I try never to read between the lines, especially on here.

by **account deleted by request** » Tue Nov 14, 2006 10:14 am

Bamaga man wrote:
Moan about the players because they are the ones who's heads are dropping. I dont imagine Rafa says to the players when they go on the field " If we go a goal down, just give up and we will try again next week!"

Whether you like it or not, rightly or wrongly the finger will always eventually get pointed at the manager, as it did with Houllier. If the team follow his tactics and do as their told, and lose the big man will have to share the blame, and also stopping their heads from dropping after they go a goal down is another area Rafa has to change as well as the players. Rafa has to install the belief and desire in the players to believe they can go out there and beat anyone. To me Rafa highlights the only weak link in the modern day manager, when it comes down to stratigics, technical comparisons and detail there seems to be no one better, but the man management side of managers with Mourininho the possible exception they seem to of forgotton about basic fundementals.

Thats a very good point Bamaga, I dont think Rafa is ever going to be the Father figure, arm around the shoulders type manager. Then again Shankly used to have Ruben Bennett and Fagin to do that (Bob Paisley was the hit man believe it or not

) So perhaps Rafa also looks to his coaches to perform that function?

Maybe we need to hire a sports psychologist ?

by **red37** » Tue Nov 14, 2006 10:27 am

s@int wrote:Maybe we need to hire a sports psychologist ?

some clubs already do i understand.

by **babu** » Tue Nov 14, 2006 10:57 am

s@int wrote:Maybe we need to hire a sports psychologist ?

haha, read in the paper yesterday that Sven is claiming that he should have had one for the England squad. But the very next sentence he claims his time in charge can be considered successful, :censored:

.

by **account deleted by request** » Tue Nov 14, 2006 11:02 am

babu wrote:
s@int wrote:Maybe we need to hire a sports psychologist ?

haha, read in the paper yesterday that Sven is claiming that he should have had one for the England squad. But the very next sentence he claims his time in charge can be considered successful, .

Allison once hired a ballet dancer trainer for Man City to teach them better movement but it never seemed to catch on. I cant imagine why not

by **LittleHobo** » Tue Nov 14, 2006 11:03 am

but should benitez have problems after 2 and a bit years?

if he is the genuis everyone makes out he should have solved all the problems by now and be on the round to making us a consistent team

lets be honest it is now near enough benitez team out there

and he never had a huge transfer kitty at valencia compared to barca and real madrid

Liverpool FC Forum

Benitez' attitude - Man-management

Who is online