Am i being a little over dramatic... - Or has something got to give?

Liverpool Football Club - General Discussion

Postby KOPMATT » Mon Oct 23, 2006 5:00 pm

Thehobo wrote:keep dreaming son

alonso is one of the reasons we aint moving forward

he hasnt improved since he got here?

we need gerrard in centre mid, and sissoko in the holding role.

I definately agree that we need Gerrard in the middle with Sissoko, I've felt that Alonso had IMO  a disappointing World cup and has so far been disappointing for us.
I hate rotation unless it's called for, If you're playing well and fit then you should bloody well play! You can't Imagine Paisley leaving out Dalglish or benching him after a match winning perfomance! So why do it to Crouch? Ok he wasn't my first choice of Striker but he gives his all and has scored some vital goals for us, FA cup last year against ManUre for starters!
I think theres something deeper to the root than just rotation, and I've no idea what people say on here about Stevie Gerrards private life rumours? I've no idea what they're on about sorry, what rumours? I'm at a loss, and couldn't wait to shut the telly off after yesterdays game and get to a 5 year old kiddies birthday party, now that tells you something! :veryangry
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Postby jizz » Mon Oct 23, 2006 5:18 pm

was at a session on sat night got home at 12.30pm yesterday after a lot of over indulging with no sleep what so ever, had a quick shower and turned on the match, it was hard to keep my eyes open, but i did as i support ( love ) liverpool and wanted them to win so badly to get this season kick started,  come on here today and the stick most of the team are getting is unreal and as for the stick handed out to raffa? ???? ???? get a f**king grip...sell alonso sack raffa, need a new right back what...? near enough the same team finished 1point off the scum last year and a fa cup to boot, raffa has improved the team this year, give him time and come next feb-march then see where we are only 8 games played ffs..........!!!!! i'd like to see your views then...liverpool fans you call yourself?
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Postby ConnO'var » Mon Oct 23, 2006 5:20 pm

Lando_Griffin wrote:
Rimetto_ wrote:that does surprise me. But i still think momo is a better defensive midfielder than alonso.

That is because you are an idiot.

You, thehobo and Conno'var are all as thick as the hardback version of the complete works of Shakespeare.

Anyone who says "sell Alonso", is not a Liverpool fan. Simple as that. You don't sell your best player to accomodate a punk with an ego.

Anyone who says "Sack Rafa", needs taking out back and shooting. It's the best thing in the long run. Your suffering must come to an end, you sick, deluded b*stards.
Rafa is the best thing to happen to LFC for over 20 years. Wake up to that fact, and he might stay. Continue your witch-hunt, and he may start thinking "F*ck 'em - I'll go to Real and win everything there instead."
It's judgement time, you a*seholes - I'm telling you right now - carry on like this, and he'll go. And then, you will be responsible for robbing the club of it's second chance.

"Rafa should go unless he starts playing Gerrard in CM" - go and f*ck yourselves. Steven Gerrard, I believe you will find, is EMPLOYED by LFC - he doesn't own the club. He isn't bigger than the club, and if he continues to sulk, he'll get sold, and we'll buy 5 players who WILL play without a childish "I'm taking my ball home" look on their faces, and who WILL bring the title home.

For all his good points, he's like a spoilt brat, and if the choice is "Rafa or Gerrard" as some deluded punks have suggested, well then I sincerly hope Stevie boy gets naffed off in January, and Rafa tightens his grip on the club.

No player is bigger than the club, and despite many of you having a strong desire to climb up Stevie's a*sehole and set up home there, NEITHER IS HE!

He will play wherever Rafa sees fit, and if he refuses or continues his old woman-like interest, he can feck right off. I for one wouldn't be bothered if the mardy son of a bitch never played for us again. He's a disruptive influence who only thinks about himself.
Sooner or later, you'll all wake up to that fact.

This "Alonso vs Gerrard" debate about who should play in CM is a joke. Do you not realise that Gerrard is merely an average Central Midfielder, whereas Alonso is superior in that position? DO you folks not see the subtleties in the game? DO you not see how players are sheperded out of the game by Xabi, so the team can play as it wishes? DO you not understand the job if you can't see tackles/goals flying in?

Gerrard isn't a World-class CM. He is, however, the best right midfielder in the World.

If his ego cannot see that, and your tainted "I love GErrard and want his c*ck up my a*se" viewpoint fails to allow YOU to spot it, may I suggest you all feck off and leave this club in peace? BEcause I'm sick and fecking tired of listening to a bunch of whining dullards professing to know it all, when in actual fact you know F*CK all.

Finally, this "Momo and Gerrard" in CM arguement - it's utter shocking b*llocks.
If Momo was deployed as a holding midfielder, JC and Sami would be continuously dragged out of position to cover the gaps the Mali man would leave tracking upfield to hunt the ball. With Gerrard already straying about the field, we would have MASSIVE holes in the team, which even f*cking Scunthorpe Utd would exploit.
You all p*ss and whine that you want Gerrard to play his "proper game" - well listen up, cretins - you play that system, and the only way we'd avoid a complete battering at the hands of any side in the World, is if Gerrard played the holding roll, and Momo broke up the play. We'd have no drive whatsoever then, and that is just a little indication of what Alonso brings to the side.
He lets us play how WE want. He breaks up wave after wave of attacks, without going to ground - THAT is the sign of a proper holding midfielder. (Oh, and he happens to be the best passer of the ball in World football, aswell - which some of you seem to think is his only "trick" - you blind c*nts.)

Here it is, in a nutshell for all the thick w*nkers on this forum:

Rafa is the boss. He chooses the team. Gerrard is a mardy b*stard with an ego the size of Wales. Sissoko is a battling midfielder, and will never EVER be a holding mid - he will never EVER be Patrick Viera, either.

Oh, and Alonso is our best player bar none. Gerrard would never have scored those 23 goals last season without Xabi doing all of his gimp-work.

Now shove it up your a*ses and stop talking b*llocks.

Yawn..... here we go again.....

Mr. Know-it-all sprouting his "absolutely correct and don't you dare challenge what I'm saying" views again and as usual flavoured with his very colorful vocabulary.....

Maybe it's time you stopped brown-nosing Alonso and get your tongue out of his @rse for good measure...

I like Alonso and selling him would be daft.... (btw... if you'd read my post and understood it, then you'd see that I actually agree with you on that... but obviously not... Apparently when the great Lando gets on the soapbox, all sense of reason disappear)

Rafa has got it wrong this season..... I'd like to see you quote an instance when he'd tactically outmanouvered the big 3 clubs in the league since he's taken over.... to the best of my knowledge, his record stands as such.....

1. 2006-2007... 2 games played, 2 games lost
2. 2005-2006 ... 6 games played, 1 win (Arsenal), 1 draw (ManU) and 4 losses including a 4-1 thrashing to Chelsea.
3. 2004-2005 ...  6 games played, 1 win (Arsenal) and 5 losses.

Thats a total of 2 wins, 1 draw and ELEVEN losses (in the league) to the big three since Rafa has taken over....

That's quite a sterling record eh Lando?

Wake up and smell the coffee, child....
it's been 2.24 seasons since Rafa has taken over the management of the club, the honeymoon's over.....

One instance, Lando.... just quote one case when Rafa's outstanding tactical nous has won us a big game..... and you can forget Istanbul.... that wasn't Rafa's doing..... that was Stevie and Didi's doing....

Well?
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Postby The_Rock » Mon Oct 23, 2006 7:20 pm

Not sure where to post this...so i shall post it here.... Seems like Gerrard Vs Rafa (and crouch) is the flavour of the week for the press...


http://www.soccer365.com/EUROPEA....4.shtml


Benitez Facing Tough Decisions 23/10/06

Liverpool boss Rafael Benitez seems to be involved in a battle of wills with some of his star players as the Anfield club's season reaches crisis point.

Benitez has been forced into a soul-searching exercise after Sunday's humiliating and damaging 2-0 defeat at Manchester United, which left Liverpool 11 points behind the Premiership leaders.

The Spanish boss has a number of problems to contend with and perhaps his most worrying are ones which he has not spoken publicly about.

It is emerging behind the scenes that there may be doubts in Benitez's mind about the general form of both captain Steven Gerrard and his England colleague Peter Crouch.

It seems Benitez steadfastly refuses to play Gerrard in what many feel is his best position in central midfield, while in Crouch's case the coach seems reluctant to use him in the role he bought him for.

Crouch was signed, amid much derision, to give Liverpool a cutting edge away from home, something they had been so obviously lacking. It was a point Benitez made forcibly at the time.

He was to act as a typical English target man as well as offering an ability to hold up the ball but he has started just one away match this season.

As for Gerrard, there seems a clear worry from the coaching staff that his form - after a painful World Cup - is not dynamic enough for that central role. Concerns exist about his choice of runs and the defensive problems they create.

There are noises coming from the Gerrard camp that he is not happy with the situation or the role he is being asked to play.

Benitez must be aware of these behind-the-scenes murmurings, but he is not a man for turning.

Benitez tried to defend his decisions at Old Trafford, where Gerrard only belatedly moved into the centre of midfield, but possibly without revealing his innermost thoughts.

He said: "Stevie was on the right, but he was going inside a lot. In the end we put him in the middle.

"Last season he played really well on the right, he had freedom and he could go inside when he wanted.

"I do not feel we are using him as a winger, he is not being asked to get to the line to make crosses.

"He has a freedom to come inside and find space to attack. If he'd played in the centre all the time then Paul Scholes and Michael Carrick would have been there to pressure him.

"He can cause teams problems coming inside from a wider position. We had Luis Garcia working 'between the lines', and it did cause them problems.

"But we couldn't keep the ball properly for creating more space and chances. Luis Garcia and Gerrard did cause them problems."

Just how much that last remark was aimed at Crouch, is a matter of conjecture. But Benitez could well be concerned about a player who has scored plenty of cheap goals for England this season, but who has lost the knack of holding possession and being the awkward customer he was for defenders last term.

Benitez clearly prefers the tackling strength and running of Mohamed Sissoko alongside Xabi Alonso in central midfield at present. Yet even that pairing is causing him problems as Sissoko picked up his fourth booking of the season yesterday.

Referee Graham Poll warned the Mali 21-year-old early on, and despite some strong tackles flying in from all quarters, chose to book the midfielder soon after.

Benitez believes Sissoko is being picked on and said: "There is also a problem with how Momo Sissoko is treated. He was booked very early again by the same referee who booked him very early against Everton.

"It is easier, it seems, to show a yellow card to Momo rather than Rio Ferdinand or Steven Gerrard. I am very disappointed with this situation, and I realise that when it happens he cannot challenge in the same way because he has one card.

"But I do not want to use excuses, I would rather find solutions from our own players."
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Postby puroresu » Mon Oct 23, 2006 7:55 pm

Rafa's record against the big 3 is shocking.
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Postby Bad Bob » Mon Oct 23, 2006 7:57 pm

bigmick wrote:We need to explain to Gerrard that playing him on the left was a mistake which we now realise and accept. We also need to tell him that we accept it is a mistake to not play him through the centre in the unlikely event of us playing five in midfield ever again. No, we need to tell him that we think if he starts on the right, that is the best way of getting him on the ball in areas where he can most hurt the opposition. This is the area right or central where he recieve the ball in the final third. Get him on the ball there, and he is the most destructive footballer in the Premiership today.

We need to tell Sissoko to go back to hunting the ball much higher up the pitch. FWIW I actually think this is THE most significant factor in our demise this season. Momo, hunt the ball in the final third, you are not a holding midfielder.

Guess what the last one is? Yeah you got it, pick a team and stick largely to it. If we continue as we are we could be the first team in the history of the Premiership to have rotated and tinkered our way into barely the top half of the table.

You've made some good suggestions here, mate.  First and foremost, Gerrard needs a heart-to-heart with Rafa.  I, too, feel that the body language from our skipper has been all wrong these past few games and that needs sorting now.  And, it's a two-way street.  No player is bigger than the squad and that includes Stevie so Rafa can't simply kowtow to Gerrard and play him as the lad sees fit.  On the other hand, Gerrard is a MUCH more effective performer when he's clear on his role and reminded how vital to the side he is.  I think an explanation from Rafa, along the lines you are suggesting (LM was a mistake, RM was and is not...it's where you can be deployed most effectively) makes sense.  Hell, show him some match footage from last season terrorizing defenses from RM and get the belief flowing through his veins again because the longer he's left to stew and simmer on his own, the more damaging the outcome will be for the whole squad.

As for Sissoko, I agree that his approach to the game has changed and that he is now doing too much of his work in deep positions rather than helping defend from the front.  Look how deep Kuyt and Crouch have been dropping when we don't have the ball--these are areas that Momo used to be bombing about in and he needs to get back to that.  Our rate of possession has been shockingly poor of late so we need his ball-winning abilities more than ever.  And, those advocating dropping Alonso and playing Sissoko as our holding midfielder need to understand how much more suited Xabi is for that role than Momo.  The CM formula we had last season worked a treat...it needs to be reforged if we are to salvage things this season.

Finally, on the subject of rotation, I've been agreeing with you by inches over the past few weeks, Mick.  As someone who's defended Rafa's general philosophy of rotation, it may seem "fickle" to voice concerns now.  I, however, am a proponent of rational rotation of a small group of players in their established "best positions" as the season unfolds.  To my mind, playing Gerrard or Pennant on the left is not rational rotation.  Nor, is dropping Crouchy from the starting 11 in the league after scoring midweek.  Ultimately, I think the "best 11" has largely been established by this point but Rafa needs to keep faith with it even for the big away fixtures if we are to have any chance of repairing confidence levels and finding some semblance of attractive, flowing football.  For me, the teamsheet has to look like this for the next little while:

                           Reina

Finnan      Carragher        Agger         Riise

Gerrard      Alonso           Sissoko       Gonzales

                Crouch          Kuyt

Subs: Dudek, Bellamy, Pennant, Aurelio/Garcia, Hyypia
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Postby floppo » Mon Oct 23, 2006 8:07 pm

That would be my team too, except I would start with Kuyt & Bellamy up front. Not enough pace with Crouch & Kuyt together and I thought when Bellamy & Kuyt started a few games in a row together after PSV game that they were beginning to look like a partnership.
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Postby Rafa D » Mon Oct 23, 2006 8:14 pm

Thehobo wrote:
Redman in wales wrote:
Thehobo wrote:o dear

OPTA stats are silly

on that basis the best passers in the league are

darren fletcher
scott parker
frank lampard

er no.... the top 4 are:
     
               
Passers      Team     Passes Accuracy         
Fabregas   Arsenal     587       85%         
Essien       Chelsea    454       83%         
Alonso      Liverpool   452        82%         
Lampard   Chelsea     449        80%         


no fletcher or parker there... just 4 of the leagues best midfielders (though i do use that term lightly for fat frank)
------

and yes opta stats may not be the best way to rate or judge players, and they may not be 100% accurate or full proof, they do give you some idea... and more often or not they're in the right area



DON'T I LOOK A T W AT!!

I AGREE
Last edited by Rafa D on Mon Oct 23, 2006 8:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby alessandromagno » Mon Oct 23, 2006 8:19 pm

Is it possible that Rafa is being unduly stubborn--as Houllier was when things started going wrong? It's an open secret that Gerrard and Rafa don't really get on on a personal level.Last season with Rafa and SG pulling together we did well in the PL ganering 82 pts. That won't happen again if the relationship has brokn down. SG can be selfish, but some of Rafa's decisions--and let's admit this--have been quite weird lately.

Hope they can pull together again--if not one or the other may well leave at the end of this season simply to prevent the situation from exploding. Rafa should definitely give players more praise whn they perform well. At present, he is coming across as a cold fish.
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Postby KOPMATT » Mon Oct 23, 2006 8:27 pm

Where are we going as Liverpool FC? I asked myself this question last week after watching what I thought was a very weak display away to Bordeux even if we did win. If Rafa tells us that we have a stronger squad this season compared to last then why is it that last seasons games, or most of them seemed more enjoyable to watch than the stuff we've witnessed this season so far? I know we need to see players "bed in" but  Pennant played premiership as did Bellamy so theres two to mention that should be doing better. Wheres Fowler? Was he made scapegoat for the debacle at Goodison? Hope not!
I hate to say this but it appears IMO that we've gone more than just a few steps backwards!
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Postby Bad Bob » Mon Oct 23, 2006 8:40 pm

floppo wrote:That would be my team too, except I would start with Kuyt & Bellamy up front. Not enough pace with Crouch & Kuyt together and I thought when Bellamy & Kuyt started a few games in a row together after PSV game that they were beginning to look like a partnership.

Would ordinarily agree with you except for the fact that, at the moment, Crouch is our in-form striker and we can't afford to squander that.  Starting Bellamy ahead of Kuyt as his strike partner is an option if pace is your biggest concern.  Personally, I think a Crouch/Kuyt partnership would bring a good deal of honest graft up front...a commodity that the team seems to be sorely lacking just at the moment.

In any event, all three will play a part in virtually every game no matter who starts, given that one striker usually gets substituted for another at about the hour mark each match.
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Postby alessandromagno » Mon Oct 23, 2006 8:43 pm

I'd like to see RF play more often.
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Postby KOPMATT » Mon Oct 23, 2006 8:49 pm

alessandromagno wrote:I'd like to see RF play more often.

Me too!
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Postby account deleted by request » Mon Oct 23, 2006 8:51 pm

alessandromagno wrote:I'd like to see RF play more often.

So would I! Last season we had a spell were we couldnt buy a goal until Robbie scored. Maybe its time to give him a chance (if hes fit).

I have been saying all season that I think Robbie and Kuyt should be played together. I think they would compliment each others style perfectly, with the only problem being lack of real pace.

Reading and Villa would be ideal opportunities to try them as the strike force.
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Postby puroresu » Mon Oct 23, 2006 9:34 pm

Is Fowler a Carling cup player now?  If so why did Rafa sign him.
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