Liverpool FC Forum

by **bigmick** » Mon Jan 16, 2006 8:18 pm

Some very well made points. Sarge sorry I got off on one mate, not like me (I think) to be a t0sser but there you go, most everyone else gets a turn so why not me I suppose?

I think we are all largely singing from the same hymnsheet but we slightly differ on how replaceable Gerrard is. Thats the beauty of it all this forum stuff, we're allowed to think different things. I think we probably are in agreement when I say that I hope none of us gets a chance to be proven right or wrong anytime soon.

by **JBG** » Mon Jan 16, 2006 8:31 pm

There would be no replacing Gerrard, he is largely a one off. If a manager sold him and tried to bring in a successor, he would probably fail.

The trick is to change the side slighty after a big player leaves, strengthening other areas and making the team more dangerous in places it wasn't before. We didn't replace Souness but down the line Molby, Whelan and McMahon did an excellent job and we improved our wide areas with Barnes and Houghtan. The combination of Barnes and Beardsley also helped us overcome the effective withdrawl of Kenny Daglish from the first team.

You cannot replace like with like when it comes to guys like Gerrard. There is no "new Gerrard" out there that I can see. Trying to find one could take you 20 years. The same goes for Roy Keane and Vieira. Man UTD are at nothing trying to find a replacement for Keane, they just won't find one, and if such a player exists, you can bet Chelsea, Madrid or Milan would outbid UTD. Instead UTD should try to find 2 quality midfielders to replace Keane, and perhaps shift the focus of excellence elsewhere, perhaps either at central defence, out wide or most likely, up front, with Wayne Rooney.

Had Gerrard gone, Benitez would have had another £25million or so on top of what he already had to go out and buy new players. Had Gerrard gone to Chelsea, it is likely that the chase of Essien would have been between us and Man UTD, perhaps also Madrid. We would certainly have been in with a shout there. Benitez would also probably have brought in a top class right sided midfielder. While neither of these two new players would have been as good as Gerrard, chances are, the combined quality of these two new guys would have at least matched the individual quality of Gerrard.

Arsenal sold Anelka and Overmars and brought in Pires, Henry and Campbell. Overmars was a big star in England, Anelka was hyped to the high heavens. At the time it was seen as a body blow for Arsenal, but the new arrivals financed from the sale of Anelka alone dramatically raised their quality.

by **115-1073096938** » Mon Jan 16, 2006 8:34 pm

Mick i can't agree with what you are saying mate.

I don't believe one world class player is better than two top class ones. For example, Duff and Essien aren't at Gerrard's level. Definately not, they certainly can't compete individually with him, but they are obviously better as a unit.

Example for you Mick.

A defense consisting of Traore, Nesta, Cannavaro and Josemi or a defense with Riise, Hyypia, Carragher, Finnan. To me i know which would be the strongest. Despite one having the two best in the world in there positions, the other two weaken the side immensely.

Had Liverpool lost Gerrard, Essien would have come in and i'm sure we'd have signed a right winger. Essien is a quality player, in a similar bracket to Alonso, so we'd still be exceptionally strong in that area of the team. We wouldn't have a "weak" link i supose, where as at the moment, we do.

Gerrard is a fantastic player but NO-ONE is irreplaceable in any context. Michael Owen's the best player i've ever seen live, by quite a distance infact, yet we're now a better side than at any point when he played for us.

by **115-1073096938** » Mon Jan 16, 2006 8:36 pm

JBG wrote:There would be no replacing Gerrard, he is largely a one off. If a manager sold him and tried to bring in a successor, he would probably fail.

The trick is to change the side slighty after a big player leaves, strengthening other areas and making the team more dangerous in places it wasn't before. We didn't replace Souness but down the line Molby, Whelan and McMahon did an excellent job and we improved our wide areas with Barnes and Houghtan. The combination of Barnes and Beardsley also helped us overcome the effective withdrawl of Kenny Daglish from the first team.

You cannot replace like with like when it comes to guys like Gerrard. There is no "new Gerrard" out there that I can see. Trying to find one could take you 20 years. The same goes for Roy Keane and Vieira. Man UTD are at nothing trying to find a replacement for Keane, they just won't find one, and if such a player exists, you can bet Chelsea, Madrid or Milan would outbid UTD. Instead UTD should try to find 2 quality midfielders to replace Keane, and perhaps shift the focus of excellence elsewhere, perhaps either at central defence, out wide or most likely, up front, with Wayne Rooney.

Had Gerrard gone, Benitez would have had another £25million or so on top of what he already had to go out and buy new players. Had Gerrard gone to Chelsea, it is likely that the chase of Essien would have been between us and Man UTD, perhaps also Madrid. We would certainly have been in with a shout there. Benitez would also probably have brought in a top class right sided midfielder. While neither of these two new players would have been as good as Gerrard, chances are, the combined quality of these two new guys would have at least matched the individual quality of Gerrard.

Arsenal sold Anelka and Overmars and brought in Pires, Henry and Campbell. Overmars was a big star in England, Anelka was hyped to the high heavens. At the time it was seen as a body blow for Arsenal, but the new arrivals financed from the sale of Anelka alone dramatically raised their quality.

Same points I was trying to make only more well said.

by **JBG** » Mon Jan 16, 2006 8:37 pm

stu_the_red wrote:Mick i can't agree with what you are saying mate.

I don't believe one world class player is better than two top class ones. For example, Duff and Essien aren't at Gerrard's level. Definately not, they certainly can't compete individually with him, but they are obviously better as a unit.

Example for you Mick.

A defense consisting of Traore, Nesta, Cannavaro and Josemi or a defense with Riise, Hyypia, Carragher, Finnan. To me i know which would be the strongest. Despite one having the two best in the world in there positions, the other two weaken the side immensely.

Had Liverpool lost Gerrard, Essien would have come in and i'm sure we'd have signed a right winger. Essien is a quality player, in a similar bracket to Alonso, so we'd still be exceptionally strong in that area of the team. We wouldn't have a "weak" link i supose, where as at the moment, we do.

Gerrard is a fantastic player but NO-ONE is irreplaceable in any context. Michael Owen's the best player i've ever seen live, by quite a distance infact, yet we're now a better side than at any point when he played for us.

Quit nicking my arguements.

by **115-1073096938** » Mon Jan 16, 2006 8:45 pm

JBG wrote:
stu_the_red wrote:Mick i can't agree with what you are saying mate.

I don't believe one world class player is better than two top class ones. For example, Duff and Essien aren't at Gerrard's level. Definately not, they certainly can't compete individually with him, but they are obviously better as a unit.

Example for you Mick.

A defense consisting of Traore, Nesta, Cannavaro and Josemi or a defense with Riise, Hyypia, Carragher, Finnan. To me i know which would be the strongest. Despite one having the two best in the world in there positions, the other two weaken the side immensely.

Had Liverpool lost Gerrard, Essien would have come in and i'm sure we'd have signed a right winger. Essien is a quality player, in a similar bracket to Alonso, so we'd still be exceptionally strong in that area of the team. We wouldn't have a "weak" link i supose, where as at the moment, we do.

Gerrard is a fantastic player but NO-ONE is irreplaceable in any context. Michael Owen's the best player i've ever seen live, by quite a distance infact, yet we're now a better side than at any point when he played for us.

Quit nicking my arguements.

I have my own. You should know that be now...

Great minds though...

by **andy_g** » Mon Jan 16, 2006 11:14 pm

i may be missing something in your argument stu, but i don't agree that having the two top class players is going to do you as much or more good than the one world class one. say we had sold gerrard and brought in, for example, jenas and essien. we'd have a slightly stronger squad interms of strenght in depth but unless uefa change the rules so that only LFC can play with 11 outfield players it ain't gonna do us much good.

the point of the thread, i think, is that there is no one like gerrard. you put ballack, kaka, keane or whoever in a liverpool strip and they're not the same as steven gerrard. we could have signed another player, we'd still be playing good football, but there'd always be a gerrard shaped gap in the middle of the park.

by **Sabre** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 12:33 am

Perhaps Bigmick, if you wish, we might discuss this interesting topic looking at somewhere else. After all, many of disagreements here are due to how Gerrard impresses us week in, week out. It just seems ungrateful to say that without him, we wouldn't be eighth, as it looks like after all he's not that important. No, that's not my point, really. Gerrard is a superb player. To explain my point I'm goin to put examples of other players and teams.

Look George Best. He was a top class player, like Gerrard. He elevated Manchester to their highest peaks. Nevertheless, he didn't quite manage to place Northern Ireland in a World Championship. The team surrounding a super star is very important.

Another example Xabi Alonso. In Spain, historically we'd be some sort of Tottenham Hotspur or something, classic team that always is in the top league, but only sometimes qualify for Europe. And with a couple of titles. For us, Xabi Alonso was more important than it is for Liverpool, simply, because we have worse squad than the one yo do have. Still, we didn't crumble without him. We missed him sourly, but there were other men like Prieto or Karpin or Aranburu who maintained the team. Yes Kovacevic started to seek balls and had to go to the middle field to do a build up work, we had to change our game, but there were men to work around a solution.

This year though, we've lost Kovacevic and Aranburu (due to injuries) and Brechet, one men per line (Forward, midfield, Defence) and yes, this year we are having real troubles, because it's the BACKBONE of the team the one is affected, in several points. My point is that Alonso was the most important midfielder in our youth system in 20 years, but as long as you have a good backbone, the team doesn't lose TOO much.

THose are top class players, because they can win extra points when the team is dull, because they might make the difference in a CL final. BUT if you lose just one man in a GOOD squad, the world is not over, no matter how good he is.

by **115-1073096938** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 12:41 am

andy_g wrote:i may be missing something in your argument stu, but i don't agree that having the two top class players is going to do you as much or more good than the one world class one. say we had sold gerrard and brought in, for example, jenas and essien. we'd have a slightly stronger squad interms of strenght in depth but unless uefa change the rules so that only LFC can play with 11 outfield players it ain't gonna do us much good.

the point of the thread, i think, is that there is no one like gerrard. you put ballack, kaka, keane or whoever in a liverpool strip and they're not the same as steven gerrard. we could have signed another player, we'd still be playing good football, but there'd always be a gerrard shaped gap in the middle of the park.

The points simple.

Gerrard is a great player. Sissoko and Luis Garcia are good players. Essien is better than both Sissoko and Luis Garcia. For the sake of the arguement, say Jenas is better than both aswell and the same level as Essien... Lets give them points instead of ability...

World class 5
Top class 4
Quality players 3
Good players 2

For the sake of the arguement:

Gerrard. 5
Essien. 4
Alonso. 4
Jenas. 4
Kewell. 3
Luis Garcia. 3
Sissoko. 3

Kewell, Alonso, Sissoko, Gerrard
3 4 3 5

15 points.

Kewell, Essien, Alonso, Jenas
3 4 4 4

Again 15 points.

I'm not saying Jenas is in there class, its just to get the point across.

by **66-1112520797** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 1:16 am

stu_the_red wrote:
andy_g wrote:i may be missing something in your argument stu, but i don't agree that having the two top class players is going to do you as much or more good than the one world class one. say we had sold gerrard and brought in, for example, jenas and essien. we'd have a slightly stronger squad interms of strenght in depth but unless uefa change the rules so that only LFC can play with 11 outfield players it ain't gonna do us much good.

the point of the thread, i think, is that there is no one like gerrard. you put ballack, kaka, keane or whoever in a liverpool strip and they're not the same as steven gerrard. we could have signed another player, we'd still be playing good football, but there'd always be a gerrard shaped gap in the middle of the park.

The points simple.

Gerrard is a great player. Sissoko and Luis Garcia are good players. Essien is better than both Sissoko and Luis Garcia. For the sake of the arguement, say Jenas is better than both aswell and the same level as Essien... Lets give them points instead of ability...

World class 5
Top class 4
Quality players 3
Good players 2

For the sake of the arguement:

Gerrard. 5
Essien. 4
Alonso. 4
Jenas. 4
Kewell. 3
Luis Garcia. 3
Sissoko. 3

Kewell, Alonso, Sissoko, Gerrard
3 4 3 5

15 points.

Kewell, Essien, Alonso, Jenas
3 4 4 4

Again 15 points.

I'm not saying Jenas is in there class, its just to get the point across.

Looking at the two midfields there I'd take Gerrards any day of the week , because those world class players are the type of players that have more impact on a game.
Gerrards late strike against Olympiacos would some that point up pretty well, or the way he inspired that memorable comeback against Milan.
I doubt very much Jenas or Essein could do that, which makes Gerrards midfield more dangerous in my opinion.

I would never use the term irreplacable about a footballer because there not. But Steven Gerrard is the closest thing to that for Liverpool, it would be the hardest job for the Benitez in terms of replacing a player in the Liverpool squad. So even if two players were brought in ie Essein and Jenas, The saying about quality over quantity would spring to mind and I'd stick with Gerrard thats my opinion call me bias .
I think most of us agree that he is a very important player to the team and more importantly Rafa thinks the same.

by **115-1073096938** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 1:57 am

Bamaga man wrote:
stu_the_red wrote:
andy_g wrote:i may be missing something in your argument stu, but i don't agree that having the two top class players is going to do you as much or more good than the one world class one. say we had sold gerrard and brought in, for example, jenas and essien. we'd have a slightly stronger squad interms of strenght in depth but unless uefa change the rules so that only LFC can play with 11 outfield players it ain't gonna do us much good.

the point of the thread, i think, is that there is no one like gerrard. you put ballack, kaka, keane or whoever in a liverpool strip and they're not the same as steven gerrard. we could have signed another player, we'd still be playing good football, but there'd always be a gerrard shaped gap in the middle of the park.

The points simple.

Gerrard is a great player. Sissoko and Luis Garcia are good players. Essien is better than both Sissoko and Luis Garcia. For the sake of the arguement, say Jenas is better than both aswell and the same level as Essien... Lets give them points instead of ability...

World class 5
Top class 4
Quality players 3
Good players 2

For the sake of the arguement:

Gerrard. 5
Essien. 4
Alonso. 4
Jenas. 4
Kewell. 3
Luis Garcia. 3
Sissoko. 3

Kewell, Alonso, Sissoko, Gerrard
3 4 3 5

15 points.

Kewell, Essien, Alonso, Jenas
3 4 4 4

Again 15 points.

I'm not saying Jenas is in there class, its just to get the point across.

Looking at the two midfields there I'd take Gerrards any day of the week , because those world class players are the type of players that have more impact on a game.
Gerrards late strike against Olympiacos would some that point up pretty well, or the way he inspired that memorable comeback against Milan.
I doubt very much Jenas or Essein could do that, which makes Gerrards midfield more dangerous in my opinion.

I would never use the term irreplacable about a footballer because there not. But Steven Gerrard is the closest thing to that for Liverpool, it would be the hardest job for the Benitez in terms of replacing a player in the Liverpool squad. So even if two players were brought in ie Essein and Jenas, The saying about quality over quantity would spring to mind and I'd stick with Gerrard thats my opinion call me bias .
I think most of us agree that he is a very important player to the team and more importantly Rafa thinks the same.

What i'd say to that is a world class player can get you 5-10 points a season, a world class team can get you 90.

Now look at Chelsea, for me the only truely world class player in there ranks is Gallas.

Terry, Robben, Essien, Del Horno, Ferreira, Cech, Makelele and Duff are all class players.

With Lampard, Gudjohnson, Wright Phillips and Cole all quality players.

Gallas for me is probably the second best "stopper" in the world. When i say stopper i mean someone like Cannavaro, Carragher etc... who plays alongside a dominant centre half like Hyypia, Terry or Stam. Yet, he can't get into Chelsea's team every week.

Now if someones going to sit there and tell me Carvalho's in the anything like the same class i'll gladly castrate you. The point is though, if you have quality in 4 positions, it is just as effective over the course of things as having 2 class, one world class and one thats decent.

Basically, what i'm saying is Liverpool might not have been in the Olympiakos position without Gerrard as we might have already been through if we were a stronger alround unit.

If you have 4 players of equal ability and three play well and one not so well, you don't lose as much as if you have 2 good players, one great and one not so great and the great one has an off day.... if that makes sense... sorry i'm drunk it might not...

IE... If in Gerrard's team Gerrard isn't fully fit for whatever reason or isn't there and is replaced by Luis Garcia, it becomes a 13 point midfield as apose to a 15 point, wheras in the second, if Essien's out, Sissoko comes in, its a 14 point midfield.

I know games aren't played on paper, i'm just using that as an example.

Hopefully you see my point.

by **el_stinger** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 2:04 am

"He is a key pleya for usss"

by **115-1073096938** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 2:10 am

by **greenred** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 2:43 am

Fuc.king fantastic thread,some great points made.Im leaning more toward the JBG,Stu,Sabre point of view though.Steve,as important as he is isnt irreaplacable.We would have got the points and the goals from somewhere else.I had severe doubts about Mr Benitez before he arrived but he`s proved all those doubts wrong.Ive no doubt if Gerrard had left he would have filled the gaps with competent players.Benitez is a Shankly...he knows how to make this club great again....In Benitez i trust...

by **115-1073096938** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 2:45 am

greenred wrote:Fuc.king fantastic thread,some great points made.Im leaning more toward the JBG,Stu,Sabre point of view though.Steve,as important as he is isnt irreaplacable.We would have got the points and the goals from somewhere else.I had severe doubts about Mr Benitez before he arrived but he`s proved all those doubts wrong.Ive no doubt if Gerrard had left he would have filled the gaps with competent players.Benitez is a Shankly...he knows how to make this club great again....In Benitez i trust...

We get on so much better then you agree with me.

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