Liverpool FC Forum

by **zarababe** » Tue Dec 27, 2005 3:34 pm

That's agood summary Stu, however interestingly the Guradian rate Morientes as mana of the match. A game of opinions, surely not

Here's the link to the article, another good one by he Guardian .. them Mods must be badly slaughtered:

http://football.guardian.co.uk/Match_Report/0,1527,1673972,00.html

by **banana** » Tue Dec 27, 2005 3:53 pm

bigmick wrote:Alright Phil mate? I agree he ballesed it up well and truly with us Phil, bit his record elsewhere aint all that bad. When he went to rangers, Celtic were very much in the ascendancy and Sounness was the first Scottish manager to realise the potential of bringing quality English players up to Glasgow. He bought well and built a good team, one which comfortably took care of the English Champions Leeds when they ran into each other in the European Cup.
In Turkey, the Galtasaray (I think) fans loved his demonstrative style, particularly the bit where he stuck their flag into the centre circle after beating their rivals in a local derby.
Whens all said and done though Phil, I don't really give a sh!te about the bloke as a manager either way. Maybe he ain't the manager I think he is, but I'm not having it that they are garbage like some numpties on here are saying. They are better than many in what is an average Premier League this year.
BTW mate, I agree with you on him as a player. Absolutely unbelieveable.

Bigmick you must be joking right?

Souness is a clown and has failed everywhere.

And he was sacked in Turkey after an shocking spell there. And your flag story is true, and a demonstration of how stupid souness is. Doing things like that could well start a massive fight on the stands and riot in the streets. I say he was lucky that his stupid action did not get people killed.

And you failed to mention his disasterous spell in portugal taking the best team there from 1st to 5th place and of course getting another sacking.

by **115-1073096938** » Tue Dec 27, 2005 5:07 pm

banana wrote:
bigmick wrote:Alright Phil mate? I agree he ballesed it up well and truly with us Phil, bit his record elsewhere aint all that bad. When he went to rangers, Celtic were very much in the ascendancy and Sounness was the first Scottish manager to realise the potential of bringing quality English players up to Glasgow. He bought well and built a good team, one which comfortably took care of the English Champions Leeds when they ran into each other in the European Cup.
In Turkey, the Galtasaray (I think) fans loved his demonstrative style, particularly the bit where he stuck their flag into the centre circle after beating their rivals in a local derby.
Whens all said and done though Phil, I don't really give a sh!te about the bloke as a manager either way. Maybe he ain't the manager I think he is, but I'm not having it that they are garbage like some numpties on here are saying. They are better than many in what is an average Premier League this year.
BTW mate, I agree with you on him as a player. Absolutely unbelieveable.

Bigmick you must be joking right?

Souness is a clown and has failed everywhere.

And he was sacked in Turkey after an shocking spell there. And your flag story is true, and a demonstration of how stupid souness is. Doing things like that could well start a massive fight on the stands and riot in the streets. I say he was lucky that his stupid action did not get people killed.

And you failed to mention his disasterous spell in portugal taking the best team there from 1st to 5th place and of course getting another sacking.

Mick was spot on. Souness isn't a clown and he certainly hasn't failed everywhere. He's simply a very average premiership manager. This shows that when i said your knowledge was limited... i was correct.

by **Owzat** » Tue Dec 27, 2005 8:53 pm

7_Kewell wrote:if we spank the bitters, i think that would be the end of Gollum

Probably not, he acheived a minor miracle getting them a temporary outing in Europe even if they have reverted to type. Many say they overachieved last season but for me they have underacheived for over a decade having been a top side in the 80s. They have the lowest accumulated points tally of all the ever presents in the Premiership and less than a few who haven't been ever present

by **115-1073096938** » Wed Dec 28, 2005 1:39 am

They also have the most points in English football history, when you think about the fact they acculminated most of those when it was two points for a win, its quite impressive.

by **banana** » Wed Dec 28, 2005 1:11 pm

stu_the_red wrote:
banana wrote:
bigmick wrote:Alright Phil mate? I agree he ballesed it up well and truly with us Phil, bit his record elsewhere aint all that bad. When he went to rangers, Celtic were very much in the ascendancy and Sounness was the first Scottish manager to realise the potential of bringing quality English players up to Glasgow. He bought well and built a good team, one which comfortably took care of the English Champions Leeds when they ran into each other in the European Cup.
In Turkey, the Galtasaray (I think) fans loved his demonstrative style, particularly the bit where he st their flag into the centre circle after beating their rivals in a local derby.
Whens all said and done though Phil, I don't really give a sh!te about the bloke as a manager either way. Maybe he ain't the manager I think he is, but I'm not having it that they are garbage like some numpties on here are saying. They are better than many in what is an average Premier League this year.
BTW mate, I agree with you on him as a player. Absolutely unbelieveable.

Bigmick you must be joking right?

Souness is a clown and has failed everywhere.

And he was sacked in Turkey after an shocking spell there. And your flag story is true, and a demonstration of how stupid souness is. Doing things like that could well start a massive fight on the stands and riot in the streets. I say he was l y that his stupid action did not get people killed.

And you failed to mention his disasterous spell in portugal taking the best team there from 1st to 5th place and of course getting another sacking.

Mick was spot on. Souness isn't a clown and he certainly hasn't failed everywhere. He's simply a very average premiership manager. This shows that when i said your knowledge was limited... i was correct.

My, oh my. You must have had a miserable christman and you're trying to take it out on me. Souness average? You make me laugh.

I suppose the only way to shut your azz down is to bring about some facts. After all you can't argue with facts right?

Liverpool:
Taylor 150 76 32 42 294 211 260 1.73 50.67%
Shankly 783 408 197 178 1307 766 1421 1.81 52.11%
Paisley 535 308 131 96 955 406 1055 1.97 57.57%
Fagan 131 71 36 24 225 97 249 1.90 54.20%
Dalglish 307 187 78 42 617 259 639 2.08 60.91%
Souness 157 66 45 46 248 186 243 1.55 42.04%
Evans 226 117 56 53 375 216 407 1.80 51.77%
Evans/Houllier 18 7 6 5 33 20 27 1.50 38.89%
Houllier 307 160 73 74 516 298 553 1.80 52.12%
Benitez 92 51 17 24 131 72 170 1.85 55.43%

Of all recent liverpool managers Souness has the worst record.

League record before and with souness
1988-1989 2nd
1989-1990 1st
1990-1991 2nd
1991-1992 6th (souness)
1992-1993 6th (souness)

from the press:
Just when he could have won over the supporters he sold the story on his heart problems to the The Sun. Liverpool fans were still furious with the newspaper for the way they had covered the Hillsborough disaster three years earlier and felt they had been betrayed by Souness' decision to sell to The Sun.

Souness was forced to apologise but the damage had already been done.

Liverpool had only finished sixth in his first two seasons at the helm after years of challenging for the title. The fall from grace was too much for many fans to take, and after the club endured their worst start to a season for 30 years in 1993/94 there was only going to be one outcome and Souness resigned in January.

Galatasaray
1993 1st
1994 1st
1995 Not first, considered a scandal, souness in charge and sacked
1996 turnaround year after souness
1997 1st
1998 1st
1999 1st

press report ,about the flag and more:

Souness marched into the centre circle and implanted a huge Galatasaray flag into the turf. It was an act of revenge on a Fenerbahce director who had labelled him a 'cripple', but it almost caused a full scale riot.

Souness was dismissed at the end of the season - you cannot afford to finish second in the table at Galatasaray

Southampton

1 season. Avoided relegation by two places. Moderate success.

the press say:

The Saints had been perennial strugglers in the Premiership for some time and finished two places above the drop zone. Souness soon became disillusioned with the lack of funds at The Dell and resigned at the end of the 1996/97 season.

But before he left there was another moment to forget when he signed George Weah's cousin... or so he thought. Ali Dia turned out to be a dud, and after coming on for Matt Le Tissier after half an hour of a home game with Leeds United he was substituted himself 53 minutes later.

It was reported to be one of the most inept performances ever seen in the Premiership, and before long he was shipped out to non-league side Gateshead.

Torino

Only 6 games. 7 points won.

Souness returned to Italy in 1997 with Torino, but it was a disastrous move and he was sacked after just six games at the helm.

Benfica

Souness -2 League champs
Souness -1 League champs

With Souness Not champs

Press:
The next port of call would be Portugal and Benfica just a few weeks later, but again failure to mo :censored:

a serious challenge for the title would cost him his job after just two seasons and a third place finish. Although he was sacked, Souness was again angry about a lack of financial backing from the board.

He recruited several players from England, including Welsh internationals Mark Pembridge and Dean Saunders, and the former Liverpool and Arsenal midfielder Michael Thomas.
Brian Deane and Scott Minto both returned from Portugal after spells under Souness

Local fans have reacted badly to recent defeats and the Scot - a former coach of Glasgow Rangers and Liverpool - survived two recent boardroom attempts to remove him from his post. It was decided to keep him :censored:

il the end of the campaign in the hope that Benfica may yet challenge for the title but the Braga defeat has ended all hope

Blackburn - finally some success, (for a short while...)

1st season promotion to premier league
2nd season 10th
3rd 6th place
4th 17th only just avoiding the drop
5th Only 4 games in charge. zero points. blackburn in a complete mess

Newcastle

We all know what has happened here. He has taken them from challenging for Champions league football to a bottom half team. Lest seson they finished 14th and they look like finishing around 14th spot this season too.

Is that your idea of average?

?

by **tubby** » Wed Dec 28, 2005 1:23 pm

I like him as a person and of course what he did for us as a player but unfortunatley hes just no cut out to be a manager in the top flight. How the hell he convinced MO that Newcastle was the team to be in amazes me.And its not like he hasnt had the funding either. Hes spent a lot.

by **bigmick** » Wed Dec 28, 2005 1:38 pm

Firstly Banana you must be commended on your research, most impressive and I say that without any hint of sarcasm. Also it has to be said that you make a very convincing case indeed to back up your original assertion that Souness is a fool, and that Newcastle are bad team.
While not in any way disputing the factual basis of your stats, it would be fair I think to look slightly beneath the numbers and into the depth of the issue.
I notice that you took the decision to totally leave out Souness's record at Glasgow Rangers. A good ploy if you wish to portray the man as an idiot. I don't know the stats off the top of my head but I'm sure you'll be able to find them and when you do, they'll balance up the issue somewhat.
At Liverpool he failed, no question. It has to be said however that we were unquestionably a team in decline when he took over. One or two big names had gone over the hill and some of Dalglish's signings in his last year or so were poor. The squad needed surgery and Souness didn't get it right, sixth two years running was a poor effort. The club had over the previous couple of seasons been overtaken financially by Manure and FWIW I think he was correct in his wish to disassemble the boot room aswas but things should have been done more gradually. He failed.
I don't know enough about the Galtasaray situation to comment but the stats are unimpressive from his point of view.
Southampton was more than a moderate success. He signed Berkovic, Ostenstaad and one or two others on a shoestring and built a good team. They played the best football seen at the Dell for years and I clearly remember how gutted the fans were when he left after a disagreement with Lowe.
At Blackburn he took them from mid-table in the Championship, up into the Prem and kept them there. Going by your stats, the highest finishing position was sixth which is pretty good I'd say.
At Newcastle, to describe the situation he inherited as a squad which was "challenging for a champions league spot" is dishonest. This was very recent and you don't need stats or a long memory to recall that the club was in disarray, constantly being featured on the front pages for "roasting" or for players having no respect for the rules of the club. The place was a joke and I can only assume your attempts to portray otherwise were the result of you getting carried away after posting up your band of convincing statistics.

This whole disagreement stemmed from you and others imploring posters to calm down when they described the performance against Newcastle as a very good one. Newcastle are not going to win the Premiership, but they are not rubbish either. I said in my post earlier that I think they will finish top eightish. I'm not prepared to bet on it but that's about what I reckon.
Other posters then described Souness as being a complete clown. This is just plain daft. Now as I said to Phil in an earlier post, I don't give a sh!te about Souness either way but Stu is about right when he describes him as being an average Premiership manager. Equal to Pardew, Redknapp, McCarthey, Moyes etc etc? certainly. Better than Bruce, Robson and Perrin? For sure. Not as good as Benitez, Wenger, Allardyce etc? No argument. That's what average is, about in the middle. I never said he was any Bob Paisley, I merely made the point that it wasn't getting carried away to say we played really well against Newcastle. Doesn't mean we are going to win the Prem, or that we are on the cusp of European dominance but we played very very well. Simple as that really.

by **115-1073096938** » Wed Dec 28, 2005 4:48 pm

Well said.

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