Liverpool FC Forum

by **115-1073096938** » Fri Sep 23, 2005 4:00 pm

Theres already a similar thread, but i have a slightly different point so bare with me.

Liverpool under Houllier...

I Personally believe the man was a very good manager. World class? No. But he done good things. Yes he wasted money on :censored:

like Diouf and Diao to name two, but 12 of the 14 that won the champions league last season for us, where his players. I said the man started something great, he did, he just didn't know how to finish it.

What did strike me though, was how good a team we had the season after we won the cup treble. We finished second. In my eyes, with Owen and Anelka upfront, Hamann, Gerrard and Murphy in midfield, Carragher, Riise, Hyypia, Henchoz and a solid keeper (at the time) in Dudek at the back we had the ability, given the right signings we could have and should have pushed on to greater things.

The team had a feel about it. It was hard to beat, yet could always score a goal. It never felt like we were going to lose a game. We looked strong in europe and strong at home. We didn't play enterprising football, but that was never our strength with players like Gerrard, Murphy, Hamann, Hyypia and Carragher... but that didn't stop us becoming a superb side that played to its strengths.

In the end, that season we didn't quite have enough, but we were close. One addition away maybe... for me, the permanent signing of Anelka and the aquisition of Duff would have taken us to that next level. Infact, i still think if those two had been signed we'd still have Houllier in charge today, thats who close i believe we were. Unfortunately, we know where the money went and the rest is history.

Now, under Rafa, the team again has the same feel as it did then. Only 1 season into his reign and again i feel we are one player away. This time, i think the squad is thinner, we need probably two other squad players aswell. But i genuinely belive the first 11 is one world class player away.

One world class player... it sounds alot. But the answer has said he would come and i don't think he's an unrealistic target.

For me now, this is feels like a crunch time. If we sign Joaquin, we'll go onto greater things. If we don't, i feel we may live to regret it the same way Houllier regrets not signing Duff and Anelka.

If we miss out i don't believe we'll ever close the gap on Chelsea and will always be a nearly team.

If we were to get Joaquin that would leave us with three midfielders who would walk into there team. We need a stronger midfield than them as they have the edge everywhere else.

by **Benitez No1** » Fri Sep 23, 2005 4:13 pm

Good post mate, totally agree, in my opinion one of the thinks that didn't help houllier was the illness he had, which stopped him getting the chance to work with the players he bought.

But in rafa we trust.

by **hawkmoon269** » Fri Sep 23, 2005 4:22 pm

I really don't think we will get Joaquin. I know he said he wanted to leave Betis and go to Liverpool, but he said the same thing about Chelsea last year. And financially, I can't see Liverpool blowing the budget on 1 player.

by **115-1073096938** » Fri Sep 23, 2005 4:50 pm

I think it would be a mistake not to.

We have to learn from Houllier's mistakes.

by **banana** » Fri Sep 23, 2005 5:29 pm

Well Stu, you know I don't agree with you on this one. Maybe 12 of the 14 as you say were Houllier's men. Maybe. But if you take another perspective on things they will look different. First of all we would not have been anywhere near the final with GH in charge. Second, he would have used the HH partnership and Carra would have been stuck out on right back where he certainly don't offer as much as he does in the centre. Third Warnock would have been sold to Coventry for next to nothing and the academy would have been in shambles. Fourth. Diao and Cheyrou would have played centre midfield alongside Midget Murphy. Fifth. Owen and Gerrard would have been long gone (well Owen is...) and we would have been pretty f@cked up financially. Sixth. We would have been accused of playing destructive defensive boring football (as we were, even I found our games to be a dead boring in the end of Houllier's time, and I was a die hard fan!) And so on and so on....

Ok. Thing are not 100% perfect right now. I admit. But we have built a solid reserve team full of promising youngsters. We have a solid enough first 11 and some decent squad players. We do at least try to attack in numbers and go forward, but we lack a bit of quality up front to score loads of goals from all our possession and attacking play.

One last thing I must address. GH was accused for being boring and defensive. When GH tried to answer his critics and move forward we collapsed. It is much easier to defend than attack. We simply did not have the ability to attack. And our solid back 4 fell apart when they moved forward having to cover more space. We were easily beaten by the big guns, and we did not look like dominating the likes of Portsmouth and Blackburn either.

FWIW we still struggle a bit from GH football. Still we haven't been able to strenghten our central defence and get some flair players our wide. GH used Heskey and Murphy as wingers. Heaven forbid. I think the reason why we have not been scoring and doing as well as we would have liked is that Rafa know we have to defend deep since our back 4 is so slow. When we get more pace and quality at the back we can push further upfield and pressurize the opponent more effectively. I do believe a new centre half will improve our team massively.

by **The_Rock** » Fri Sep 23, 2005 5:31 pm

hawkmoon269 wrote:I really don't think we will get Joaquin. I know he said he wanted to leave Betis and go to Liverpool, but he said the same thing about Chelsea last year. And financially, I can't see Liverpool blowing the budget on 1 player.

if chelsea sign joaquin...i am sure robben or duff will ask for a transfer.... (so it is a win-win situation)....

by **bigmick** » Fri Sep 23, 2005 5:33 pm

stu_the_red wrote:12 of the 14 that won the champions league last season for us, where his players.

I've seen you quote this before Stu and while it's sort of correct, is like most stats in that you can make them say whatever you like. FWIW I think that to describe Carragher and Gerrard as two of Houlliers players is stretching the point somewhat. The player who was one of the most instrumental in getting us to the final, Garcia wasn't GH's player. Neither was Alonso who with his masterful display against Juventus away was crucial.
Of Houlliers players, Traore became practically unrecogniseable under Rafa, while Biscan never really did manage to convince me last season that he was infact the same player which had stumbled around Anfield so ineffectualy for three years previously. Maybe he was a lookalike or something, likewise Finnan whom everybody assumed was on his way out after the early promise of Josemi.
No it was Rafa's team what won it, whichever way you look at it in my view.

by **DrTNT** » Fri Sep 23, 2005 5:50 pm

Excellent post stu!! I think if we do get joaquin we could really push for the title but I don't see him coming (but anything possible). I do think that we will win the title in the next two to three years with or without joaquin. Even though we need a RM we are in desperate need of a CB as Hyypia hasn't been at a high level, consistently, for a while now.

by **woof woof !** » Fri Sep 23, 2005 6:03 pm

Don't agree when you say " Now, under Rafa, the team again has the same feel as it did then. Only 1 season into his reign and again i feel we are one player away. This time, i think the squad is thinner, we need probably two other squad players aswell. But i genuinely belive the first 11 is one world class player away."

Certainly Joaquin would be a massive boost to us but in other areas of the team Sami's lack of pace at CD is well documented (and he's not getting any younger ) the left mid is at best no more than adequate and our strikers continue to disappoint, I'm not sure if the current crop will ever live up to their potential or reputation and deliver .
To sum up IMO we are at least 3-4 "top of the shop" players away from being a fearsome world class outfit . At present we are no more than a hard to beat side with bags of potential .

by **115-1073096938** » Fri Sep 23, 2005 6:06 pm

A made a point clearly, Houllier started something he didn't know how to finish.

To be fair the thread was meant to be more about the state of the team now. I believe it is as close as Houllier's team (2nd place one) was to winning the title. I believe now, we can't afford to make the same mistake Houllier did... (not signing proven class) because of the price.

I really do believe we're at the same point where we have to gamble on paying alot of money for one player. The next few signings in my opinion will have a Diouf effect on our side, or could see us step upto the next level.

Hyypia hasn't been at a high level, consistently, for a while now.

Disagree completely.

Four clean sheets. Hyypia is a class act and his obvious lack of pace doesn't make him a bad player. He has plenty of other superb qualities that more than make up for his lack of pace.

He's also not being exposed by the left back this season, hence the reason it hasn't been as noticable as in previous times when he's played next to the clown.

by **115-1073096938** » Fri Sep 23, 2005 6:16 pm

Certainly Joaquin would be a massive boost to us but in other areas of the team Sami's lack of pace at CD is well documented (and he's not getting any younger ) the left mid is at best no more than adequate and our strikers continue to disappoint, I'm not sure if the current crop will ever live up to their potential or reputation and deliver .
To sum up IMO we are at least 3-4 "top of the shop" players away from being a fearsome world class outfit . At present we are no more than a hard to beat side with bags of potential .

I disagree.

Hyypia's lack of pace has given us 4 league clean sheets this season out of 4 games. What is it with People and pace? Class is class weather you have pace or not isn't an issue. Pace doesn't make you a great player.

He reads the game, postions himself superbly, never misses a header, has unbelievable composure, makes excellent and quick decisions and in general is still a top class centre half. Apart from pace and occassionally his distribution he's still as good if not better than anyone. He hasn't been anything like as exposed as last season since playing next to Warnock so surely this proves Traore is the liability not Sami. Anyway, i'm not arguing with anyone there, 100% clean sheets in the league says it all, especially when you consider the players we've played against.

Riise is a good squad player and one of the better left midfielders in the league. He offers more defensively than most and isn't to shabby going forward. Ok he's no Robben, but he has other areas of his game that are good and was consistent last sesaon and can score goals.

Gerrard, Alonso and Joaquin would provide the creativety and flair. Riise and Gerrard the power, Riise, Gerrard and Joaquin pace. Alonso the skill etc etc. Also i think Crouch, Morientes, Sinama-Pongolle and Luis Garcia have enough goals and talent in them aswell as the right mix depending on the games we're playing.

At the moment the problem is obvious. Joaquin would go a long long way to solving that problem. IE the "F" columb in the league table.

by **Liverpool 4 EVA** » Fri Sep 23, 2005 6:29 pm

bigmick wrote:
stu_the_red wrote:12 of the 14 that won the champions league last season for us, where his players.

I've seen you quote this before Stu and while it's sort of correct, is like most stats in that you can make them say whatever you like. FWIW I think that to describe Carragher and Gerrard as two of Houlliers players is stretching the point somewhat. The player who was one of the most instrumental in getting us to the final, Garcia wasn't GH's player. Neither was Alonso who with his masterful display against Juventus away was crucial.
Of Houlliers players, Traore became practically unrecogniseable under Rafa, while Biscan never really did manage to convince me last season that he was infact the same player which had stumbled around Anfield so ineffectualy for three years previously. Maybe he was a lookalike or something, likewise Finnan whom everybody assumed was on his way out after the early promise of Josemi.
No it was Rafa's team what won it, whichever way you look at it in my view.

That right there is an EXCELLENT post mate, agree 100%

by **Ciggy** » Fri Sep 23, 2005 6:38 pm

Liverpool 4 EVA wrote:
bigmick wrote:
stu_the_red wrote:12 of the 14 that won the champions league last season for us, where his players.

I've seen you quote this before Stu and while it's sort of correct, is like most stats in that you can make them say whatever you like. FWIW I think that to describe Carragher and Gerrard as two of Houlliers players is stretching the point somewhat. The player who was one of the most instrumental in getting us to the final, Garcia wasn't GH's player. Neither was Alonso who with his masterful display against Juventus away was crucial.
Of Houlliers players, Traore became practically unrecogniseable under Rafa, while Biscan never really did manage to convince me last season that he was infact the same player which had stumbled around Anfield so ineffectualy for three years previously. Maybe he was a lookalike or something, likewise Finnan whom everybody assumed was on his way out after the early promise of Josemi.
No it was Rafa's team what won it, whichever way you look at it in my view.

That right there is an EXCELLENT post mate, agree 100%

Big Micks posts are always excellent, he knows his stuff alright he is one of the best poster on here, BigMick for MOD :buttrock

by **woof woof !** » Fri Sep 23, 2005 6:45 pm

stu_the_red wrote:
Certainly Joaquin would be a massive boost to us but in other areas of the team Sami's lack of pace at CD is well documented (and he's not getting any younger ) the left mid is at best no more than adequate and our strikers continue to disappoint, I'm not sure if the current crop will ever live up to their potential or reputation and deliver .
To sum up IMO we are at least 3-4 "top of the shop" players away from being a fearsome world class outfit . At present we are no more than a hard to beat side with bags of potential .

I disagree.

Hyypia's lack of pace has given us 4 league clean sheets this season out of 4 games. What is it with People and pace? Class is class weather you have pace or not isn't an issue. Pace doesn't make you a great player.

For fu'cks sake Stu ,get a fu'ckin' grip ! I'm not suggesting that Sami's lack of pace makes him a bad player .Christ ! Tony "Donkey" Adams couldn't catch a bus if the driver was out out of his seat changing a fu'ckin ' wheel BUt he was a superb defender . Sami has great positional awareness , his distribution cannot be condemed and his tackling is outstanding, HOWEVER everybody knows that without immediate support, one on one in a race for a quick through ball odds are Sami will get done . This is not knocking the guy this is just stating that it's another area in which there is needed room for improvement if we hope to step up our challenge in all competions. Your assertion was that we are one world class player away from being the mutts nuts , all i'm saying is that we have a bit further to go and that one transfer in Jan to solve the right mid problem is not going to transform us , we have to look a little deeper than that .

:kungfu:

by **115-1073096938** » Fri Sep 23, 2005 7:13 pm

I still disagree.

You would be giving the side more ability to score goals. We already have a superb defence and to be honest, its hard to improve that defence, you would have to spend stupid money and i'd rather the stupid money be spent on a position that is in desperate need.

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