Carroll or suarez ? - Or can they coexist ?!

Liverpool Football Club - General Discussion

Postby SouthCoastShankly » Wed Aug 17, 2011 10:44 am

The_Rock wrote:The problem with the team against sunderland (IMO) was that our midfield eventually lost out to the more mobile and agressive midfield.

We don't really have a strong central midfield to shield the defence and help our attack to play 4-4-2.

The best to get out of our team is to go back to 3 man central midfield.

The strongest team we can put out against arsenal.

                           Reina
Johnson   Carra/Skertel   Agger   Enrique
                       Lucas
               Aqua         Raul M
    Downing                          Suarez
                       Carroll

That isn't our strongest team. No Adam.
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Postby stmichael » Wed Aug 17, 2011 11:38 am

4-4-2 is so outdated at the very highest level now. ok you may get away with it in this league if you have two out and out wide men as 60% of the teams are average at best. however you don't really see the top teams playing this system. united play it against teams they should beat but when they played the really big games they put rooney up top on his own. they tried to play two up against barca and got destroyed. spurs play 4-4-2 usually but even they tended to refer to more of a 4-4-1-1 last season with van der vaart playing off crouch. chelsea play 4-3-3 as do arsenal and man city.
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Postby aCe' » Wed Aug 17, 2011 12:54 pm

SouthCoastShankly wrote:
The_Rock wrote:The problem with the team against sunderland (IMO) was that our midfield eventually lost out to the more mobile and agressive midfield.

We don't really have a strong central midfield to shield the defence and help our attack to play 4-4-2.

The best to get out of our team is to go back to 3 man central midfield.

The strongest team we can put out against arsenal.

                           Reina
Johnson   Carra/Skertel   Agger   Enrique
                       Lucas
               Aqua         Raul M
    Downing                          Suarez
                       Carroll

That isn't our strongest team. No Adam.

It is imo our strongest team without Gerrard being available..

Adam isnt a better player than Aquilani, and surely isnt a better player than Meireles
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Postby The_Rock » Sat Aug 20, 2011 2:46 pm

aCe' wrote:
SouthCoastShankly wrote:
The_Rock wrote:The problem with the team against sunderland (IMO) was that our midfield eventually lost out to the more mobile and agressive midfield.

We don't really have a strong central midfield to shield the defence and help our attack to play 4-4-2.

The best to get out of our team is to go back to 3 man central midfield.

The strongest team we can put out against arsenal.

                           Reina
Johnson   Carra/Skertel   Agger   Enrique
                       Lucas
               Aqua         Raul M
    Downing                          Suarez
                       Carroll

That isn't our strongest team. No Adam.

It is imo our strongest team without Gerrard being available..

Adam isnt a better player than Aquilani, and surely isnt a better player than Meireles

I reiterate....the stongest line up we have (while gerrard is injured).

You can see what meireles brings to the team over adam and henderson today.

I am not saying to get rid of those 2 players....its just we play the better players 1st and slowly bring in these players into our team as the season moves on.

At times we looked like playing with 10 men with henderson against arsenal (and so it looked even when arsenal went down to 10   :wwww )

If Aqua & Meireles don't leave during this transfer deadline..then they have to start most of our matches intil gerrard is fit.
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Postby Bad Bob » Sat Aug 20, 2011 2:55 pm

Said this in the Carroll thread but it fits better here:

I expect Carroll will get a lot of stick for this performance but only some of it will be deserved.  He was basically up top on his own and one on one with a very good defender in Vermailen.  Anything on the deck Vermailen is favourite to win and he's also strong in the air.  I think he got a helping hand from the ref on a few headers (climbing all over Carroll) but I also think Carroll let himself get out-muscled a few times.  I would have preferred not to start Henderson and have Suarez in support of Carroll.  It would have been interesting to see how Vermeilen handled that pairing...particularly with an 18 year old defense partner for most of the match.  I'm confident Carroll would have kept their MOM busy and Suarez would have ripped them to shreds.


One huge benefit of partnering Carroll and Suarez is that they both occupy defenders and in completely different ways.  When you have a top defender like Vermeilen to contend with, that extra attacking threat makes a huge difference.  I think he would have been thrilled to see Suarez on the bench today, as all he had to do was focus on the big man.
Last edited by Bad Bob on Sat Aug 20, 2011 2:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby aCe' » Sat Aug 20, 2011 5:13 pm

Bad Bob wrote:Said this in the Carroll thread but it fits better here:

I expect Carroll will get a lot of stick for this performance but only some of it will be deserved.  He was basically up top on his own and one on one with a very good defender in Vermailen.  Anything on the deck Vermailen is favourite to win and he's also strong in the air.  I think he got a helping hand from the ref on a few headers (climbing all over Carroll) but I also think Carroll let himself get out-muscled a few times.  I would have preferred not to start Henderson and have Suarez in support of Carroll.  It would have been interesting to see how Vermeilen handled that pairing...particularly with an 18 year old defense partner for most of the match.  I'm confident Carroll would have kept their MOM busy and Suarez would have ripped them to shreds.


One huge benefit of partnering Carroll and Suarez is that they both occupy defenders and in completely different ways.  When you have a top defender like Vermeilen to contend with, that extra attacking threat makes a huge difference.  I think he would have been thrilled to see Suarez on the bench today, as all he had to do was focus on the big man.

I actually think Carroll worked hard for the side today and was let down by the service from the midfielders behind him... Had to come very deep and it didnt suit his style of play...

Adam offers no movement off the ball whatsoever. His game is limited to long passes, diagonal balls, and losing possession.

Henderson moves in all the wrong places and fails to make any sort of considerable contribution in the final third. Lacks creativity and I simply cant understand what Kenny expects of him in advanced postions.

Kuyt couldnt connect well with the players around him and found it hard to get into the positions he excels at simply because the ball was never kept/delivered in such areas.

Downing struggled to get into the game for large periods because of the position and the service. Again had very little to look for in terms of interchanging passes or making runs.


Overall, it all combined to lead to a lack of fluidity throughout the side imo.. Suarez when partnered with Carroll will still need to get the service and space to work his magic. Atm, I think Kenny is having a big problem fitting all the signings into the side and making it work. Especially in the attacking third.

Suarez and Carroll on paper as you rightly say should be perfect playing together but what the players behind them. 4-4-2 is risky business and given the fact that Adam is seemingly a Kenny favourite its hard to see us doing well with that system.

I think todays game for the first 70mins showed one of the styles we can play:

            Lucas          Adam
Downing       Henderson       Kuyt       
                    Carroll

Now i'd like to see us go the other way and try something completely different at some point:

         
            Lucas         Meireles
Maxi             Aquilani           Downing     
                    Suarez


More realistically, I think Kenny will soon come to the conclusion that our best 11 in Gerrard's absence would be:

              Lucas         Adam
Meireles           Suarez        Downing     
                      Carroll

Will be dissapointing to see Meireles in a wide role yet again but I dont think Kenny can keep him on the bench for much longer given the fact that hes one of our best players and continues to prove so whenever picked. I also dont think Kenny is quite ready to give up on Adam in the middle or Carroll upfront...
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Postby aCe' » Sat Aug 27, 2011 11:44 pm

Hate to say this, but it could very well be the case that the biggest challenge for Suarez this season would be playing alongside Carroll. Our side has proven over the past 7 or so months that they are able to play attacking expansive possession football and have Suarez run the show from higher up by bringing in others into play and keeping possession higher up the pitch.... It works going forward, and more importantly it allows our defenders to push up a little and add numbers in the opposition final third...

With Carroll in the side, players like Adam, Lucas, and even Henderson play deeper and offer less in terms of attacking contribution and threat on goal...With 2 in the middle and Adam's lack of mobility, its understandable. The responsibility of building up play is narrowed down to wide players and the 2 forwards combining which hasnt really clicked for us yet.. With sch a drastic difference in the approaches of our 2 forwards, its bound to cause Kenny a few selection headaches down the road...

Our display today was by far our most emphatic and comfortable since the start of the season... The only time we played anywhere near as fluidly was when Suarez and Meireles took charge late on in the Arsenal game..
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Postby stmichael » Sat Oct 29, 2011 6:54 pm

very very encouraging signs today
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Postby ethanr » Sat Oct 29, 2011 7:30 pm

stmichael wrote:very very encouraging signs today

Agree.  Carroll been getting better and Suarez has too.  Starting to figure each other out.
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Postby jimmy brighton » Sat Oct 29, 2011 7:45 pm

I agree too. To the question at the beginning of the thread I would say both. Starting to get quite a formidable partnership together and long may it continue.

Good back-up with Bellamy on the bench too.
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Postby stmichael » Wed Nov 02, 2011 2:23 pm

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Postby Reg » Thu Nov 03, 2011 1:04 am

He'd been sitting down for 10 minutes, mind....
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Postby woof woof ! » Thu Nov 03, 2011 2:43 pm

Reg wrote:He'd been sitting down for 10 minutes, mind....

:laugh:  :laugh:  :laugh:  pmsl
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Postby Ola Mr Benitez » Thu Nov 03, 2011 4:17 pm

I posted this in the Andy Carroll thread but I think it would sit better in here.  Its an interesting read:- (not my own work - just cant remember the source, sorry)

West Brom v Liverpool: Carroll & Suarez

It may surprise some people to hear that prior to the West Brom game, with just one exception, Andy Carroll has been on the pitch every time Luis Suarez has scored this season. Another remarkable stat is that they have only started 10 games together in 10 months. Their time together on the pitch has therefore been both fruitful and brief.

A lot of people have a misunderstanding about Carroll’s role for Liverpool. Many assume that he plays further forward than Suarez, like a classic No.9,waiting in the box for a cross to put his head on. In reality, however, Carroll is more deep-lying. This role is well suited to Carroll’s attributes: tall, powerful and awkward. Put simply, he is a nuisance to the opposition defenders. When Carroll takes up this deep position he forces defenders to make decisions, dragging them out of their comfort zone and creating the space for Suarez and the supporting midfielders to exploit.

A comparison of the heat maps for Suarez and Carroll during the West Brom game shows clearly the different positions they take up during a game:

Carroll spent 36% of the game in and around the centre circle, and 26% of the game down the left flank. Two thirds of the game spent outside of the danger zone, being a nuisance. Suarez was more advanced, spending 50% of his time roaming around the right hand edge of the box, dragging one defender right whilst Carroll dragged the other left. This is highlighted from the heat maps of Olsson and McAuley, the West Brom central defenders:

Carroll’s goal on the stroke at half time was a by-product of a stretched, and out of position, West Brom defence. A goal down and chasing the game, West Brom came forward, with Olsson playing the ball forward from midfield and McAuley at least 15 yards out of position:

When the West Brom move breaks down, Lucas plays a sublime one touch pass to Suarez. Importantly, Suarez moves from his position near the centre circle to a position closer to the touch line:

This movement from Suarez takes full advantage of the poor positional play from McAuley, leaving Olsson in no man’s land between the two strikers. The inch perfect pass from Suarez, combined with Carroll’s intelligent movement away from Olsson towards the edge of the area, left Carroll all the time in the world to slot home Liverpool’s second:

There is no doubt that McAuley’s poor positional play left a lot of space for the strikers to exploit. However, given the recent criticism about Liverpool’s ability to convert chances, it was a huge relief to see such clinical execution.

Carroll and Suarez were responsible for 11 out of Liverpool’s 16 shots during the game. Against Norwich, with Carroll on the bench, Suarez had by far most shots in the team. Against West Brom, Carroll had 7 shots on goal, almost double Suarez’s total. This clearly shows a sharing of the striking responsibility, in contrast to the game against Norwich where Suarez was a lone ranger. Carroll’s 7 shots are even more impressive when you revisit the stat from earlier: he spent two thirds of the game outside of the danger zone, making a nuisance of himself.

West Brom never really got started as an attacking threat during the game. Again, Suarez and Carroll can take a great deal of credit for this. They are both excellent at defending from the front, harrying defenders and stopping moves before they start. Of the 86 possession duels contested on the pitch, Liverpool’s two attackers were involved in 35 of them (Suarez 12 Carroll 23). To put these numbers into context, Lucas was only involved in 10 possession duels in the entire game. As ever, Carroll was a menace in the air, competing in 18 out of Liverpool’s 29 Aerial Duals. All in all, Carroll's contribution against West Brom was fantastic and he got the goal his display deserved.

The stats from the West Brom game point to a partnership developing between Liverpool's two strikers which promises to blossom into the deadliest in the league. Suarez and Carroll have complimentary styles which, on paper, have always looked compatible. One thing they have not had, as of yet, is a run of games together. The performance against West Brom strongly suggests that they are going to be seeing a lot more of each other as the season progresses.
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Postby Thommo's perm » Thu Nov 03, 2011 7:50 pm

stmichael wrote:Image

:buttrock

Suarez is actually playing "pull my finger"
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