Liverpool FC Forum

by **Reg** » Mon Sep 20, 2010 10:36 pm

Thommo's perm wrote:
Reg wrote:I've never known a fella to get kicked out of a job and his successor or someone close to the business say the last fella wasn't a w@nker.

Its human nature.

Moyes to walk, MON takes over, 2 weeks later, Moyes is a w@nker.

Moyes is already a w@nker

Cant deny it but you slagged him off and he ahsn't even been sacked yet !! You see !!

by **bigmick** » Mon Sep 20, 2010 10:41 pm

I don't know about "drastic" Red, but I do think Roy needs to be a bit more attacking than he has been. That doesn't mean we play 4-2-4 or anything like that though (which would be drastic), it simply means that we have to support Torres better, pass the ball better, get ahead of the play a bit more.

The principal change I'd like to see us make if we take the personel out of it for a second, is I'd like to see us play with a maximum of one holding midfielder. Even against the mancs when Gerrard was central, he supported Poulsen more than he supported Torres and Mereiles, and I'd lke to see us trust our holder a little bit more. Of course another part of it is we have to defend much better than we are too. There is little wonder that the manager is tempted to set up defensive when every time somebody puts a cross in we look vulnerable.

So for me it's a two prongued solution. We have to defend better, and to that end I'd move Johnson out of the equation and play Carragher right back. I'd have the Greek and Agger as my central two, and sacrifice a little bit of the bombing full back in favour of a bit of defensive stability. Then I'd move Johnson to right mid where he would offer plenty more threat than Maxi, and go with the round pegs in the round holes in the other slots.

We played well for long periods against the Mancs and we rocked them, the problem was we were two down before we got going. A little bit more attacking yes, but we are doing OK IMHO and are growing noticeably.

by **Thommo's perm** » Mon Sep 20, 2010 10:44 pm

RED BEERGOGGLES wrote:People will glean from that article by Hansen whatever suits their own slant on things ....for example I would lean towards this particular passage as delivering the most poignant part of the piece .......

Hodgson knew the task facing him at Liverpool when he left Fulham, and you have to say that he has already cleared out some of the dead wood and replaced those players with better personnel. But it is all about results, and when they are not going your way, people will begin to ask questions

After the defeat at Manchester United, it is clear that Liverpool are still suffering from the same problems away from home that they have had for a while.

They were abysmal away from Anfield last season and have only managed one point from three away games so far in this campaign.

Having come back from 2-0 down to make it 2-2 at Old Trafford, I expected Liverpool automatically to go deeper and deeper and that is what they did.

" any manager inheriting this team would do significantly better than Benitez " .... does it still resonate with truth or does it sound decidedly hollow now ? ...what Hansen is saying in a rather polite way is that drastic change is needed to the managers mindset ... and its needed now before its too late

You were right in your opening sentence about gleaning what suits you.
Whatever the problem is with the players mentality away from home, Roy has to find the solution if he has aspirations of bettering last season. But it has to be a joint effort. Surely we cant expect him to solve the problem on his own when he has international players to help him?
As far as " any manager inheriting this team would do significantly better than Benitez ". I would suggest that just reaching seventh his season would qualify as a sucess, so bad have we become. I obviously hope we get higher and even into the top four, but realistically if the players dont believe in themselves and the manager, we have no chance.

by **bigmick** » Mon Sep 20, 2010 10:53 pm

I'm sorry I don't accept this "it's the players innit" argument. I didn't accept it last season when it was trotted out every five minutes, and I don't accept it now either.

We don't have the players to win the title, and you could certainly make an argument that part or even most of the blame for that lies with owners who don't spend any money. No problem with that, but we DO have a good enough team to at least make a decent challenge at getting into the top four. It's not a given, particularly now man City and Spurs are both getting going, but we should be able to have a good crack at it I think.

The managers job last season was as it always is to make the players perform at least to the level of their ability, and hopefully higher. He failed to do that so was moved on. This manager has the same task. I'm not ever goign to go down the deny the sky is blue route, Roy must deliver it's as simple as that. My point has consistently been since the season started that you cannot judge whether or not he will deliver after five matches, that's just daft.

by **Thommo's perm** » Mon Sep 20, 2010 11:18 pm

bigmick wrote:I'm sorry I don't accept this "it's the players innit" argument. I didn't accept it last season when it was trotted out every five minutes, and I don't accept it now either.

We don't have the players to win the title, and you could certainly make an argument that part or even most of the blame for that lies with owners who don't spend any money. No problem with that, but we DO have a good enough team to at least make a decent challenge at getting into the top four. It's not a given, particularly now man City and Spurs are both getting going, but we should be able to have a good crack at it I think.

The managers job last season was as it always is to make the players perform at least to the level of their ability, and hopefully higher. He failed to do that so was moved on. This manager has the same task. I'm not ever goign to go down the deny the sky is blue route, Roy must deliver it's as simple as that. My point has consistently been since the season started that you cannot judge whether or not he will deliver after five matches, that's just daft.

Of course its not just the players. The same way its not just the manager. Its both.
One thing I will say in defence of Benitez is that the players at the end let him, and us, down. Whatever the reasons I still believe they could have performed better last season, but eventually everything fell apart.
Roy has to deliver. Agreed. But the players must deliver too. Both are dependant on each other.

by **RED BEERGOGGLES** » Mon Sep 20, 2010 11:19 pm

bigmick wrote:I don't know about "drastic" Red, but I do think Roy needs to be a bit more attacking than he has been. That doesn't mean we play 4-2-4 or anything like that though (which would be drastic), it simply means that we have to support Torres better, pass the ball better, get ahead of the play a bit more.

The principal change I'd like to see us make if we take the personel out of it for a second, is I'd like to see us play with a maximum of one holding midfielder. Even against the mancs when Gerrard was central, he supported Poulsen more than he supported Torres and Mereiles, and I'd lke to see us trust our holder a little bit more. Of course another part of it is we have to defend much better than we are too. There is little wonder that the manager is tempted to set up defensive when every time somebody puts a cross in we look vulnerable.

So for me it's a two prongued solution. We have to defend better, and to that end I'd move Johnson out of the equation and play Carragher right back. I'd have the Greek and Agger as my central two, and sacrifice a little bit of the bombing full back in favour of a bit of defensive stability. Then I'd move Johnson to right mid where he would offer plenty more threat than Maxi, and go with the round pegs in the round holes in the other slots.

We played well for long periods against the Mancs and we rocked them, the problem was we were two down before we got going. A little bit more attacking yes, but we are doing OK IMHO and are growing noticeably.

I think you hit on it earlier Mick when you stated Gerrard is often sitting back far too deep making the distance between him and the attacking players only breached when he is forced into launching Hollywood balls ... I agree in theory with your points about getting ahead of the play more and we can all see Torres game is suffering through the lack of service he thrives on , that's why I would play Gerrard on the flank to provide such crosses and the invention of Meireles in the middle along with Lucas ...
I would opt for Lucas simply because we need a tenacious tackler to take control someone with a bit of bite ... I think Poulson is a much more composed player who will flourish when the team don't look so disjointed and our passing is more fluid , Cole or Pacheco in the hole behind Torres
I think my main concern though mate is the defence, Johnson is simply not good enough in any defensive capacity and Aggers omission is a little disconcerting as it leads me to believe the manager favours the more physically imposing than the classy ball players when it comes to defenders
I agree with your choice of Agger and the Greek but I have my reservations about pushing Carra to right back mate

by **Benny The Noon** » Mon Sep 20, 2010 11:33 pm

Thommo's perm wrote:
bigmick wrote:I'm sorry I don't accept this "it's the players innit" argument. I didn't accept it last season when it was trotted out every five minutes, and I don't accept it now either.

We don't have the players to win the title, and you could certainly make an argument that part or even most of the blame for that lies with owners who don't spend any money. No problem with that, but we DO have a good enough team to at least make a decent challenge at getting into the top four. It's not a given, particularly now man City and Spurs are both getting going, but we should be able to have a good crack at it I think.

The managers job last season was as it always is to make the players perform at least to the level of their ability, and hopefully higher. He failed to do that so was moved on. This manager has the same task. I'm not ever goign to go down the deny the sky is blue route, Roy must deliver it's as simple as that. My point has consistently been since the season started that you cannot judge whether or not he will deliver after five matches, that's just daft.

Of course its not just the players. The same way its not just the manager. Its both.
One thing I will say in defence of Benitez is that the players at the end let him, and us, down. Whatever the reasons I still believe they could have performed better last season, but eventually everything fell apart.
Roy has to deliver. Agreed. But the players must deliver too. Both are dependant on each other.

Agree - they need to deliver as a team - I got a lot of flak when I said the last two games Hodgson had to get it right - he didn't for the majority of those two games and we come away with a point in total and in the end a lucky point - the importance of the games increase now we have a tough game next and then Blackpool and we really need 6 points

by **Ciggy** » Tue Sep 21, 2010 7:52 am

I see the knives are being sharpened for Roy in the papers this morning.

by **bigmick** » Tue Sep 21, 2010 8:51 am

I know, after five games it is incredible isn't it. Who do these journalists think we are, Newcastle or something.

by **Ben Patrick** » Tue Sep 21, 2010 9:35 am

Ciggy wrote:I see the knives are being sharpened for Roy in the papers this morning.

What's in the papers ciggy ?

by **Thommo's perm** » Tue Sep 21, 2010 9:36 am

Im not surprised. According to some he clearly wasnt good enough in the first place to deal with the sh'it hes inherited.
Its truly amazing how nasty and vicious people can be when they want to prove their point.
To be fair, looking back Purslow did Roy very little favours saying he was "a breath of fresh air" and would be "stabilizing the ship". He has put undue pressure on him and would have been better off telling the truth about how much we had declined and that Roy (or anyone that took over) had a mountain to climb. Then people might have really understood what a monumental challenge he has got in trying to lift the club of its knees.
Papers are full of sh'it anyway. Ive just read yesterdays, in which scotch hole said Torres was a cheat, it could have been 10, it would have been a travesty if we'd have drawn and called the defeat a "catastrophe" for us.
And they actually printed it too.
:laugh:

by **jacdaniel** » Tue Sep 21, 2010 9:49 am

I think some fans are exagerrating the size of the job a little bit too much. Only 2 seasons ago we finished 2nd with 86 points and got to CL quarter final. Ok... so Masch and Alonso are gone. but thats the only major difference.

The squad we have should be at least pushing for fourth. I don't accept that we should completely drop our standards based on one miserable season.

by **bigmick** » Tue Sep 21, 2010 9:55 am

I agree that we should be able to challenge for fourth as well. I didn't accept it last season when people said "it's the players (innit)" and I don't accept it now. Of course it's not Roys fault that konchesky decides to come off his post, or Torres gets wrong side from a corner, but it IS Roy's job to make the team less pourous in defence. If he does manage that he deserves some credit, if he doesn't then he doesn't.

by **Thommo's perm** » Tue Sep 21, 2010 10:08 am

jacdaniel wrote:I think some fans are exagerrating the size of the job a little bit too much. Only 2 seasons ago we finished 2nd with 86 points and got to CL quarter final. Ok... so Masch and Alonso are gone. but thats the only major difference.

The squad we have should be at least pushing for fourth. I don't accept that we should completely drop our standards based on one miserable season.

Such is the nature of football that I would, on first sight, agree with you. But we have been in decline for years: CL winners, then beaten finalists, then semi finalists, quarter finalists, not qualified. Our league positions, besides the second place have been average to poor. The malaise has been underway for a while, except that many of us, myself included, have been distracted by other things. If we dont see the job our manager has as being one of the most difficult in football, then we are taking away the truth of what has happened in the last six years. Nobody can deny the alarming decline of one of the "top four" can they? If so, why do the media and supporters keep going on about it? People want it both ways. We're actually not that bad but we're in sh'it street on the verge of a catastrophe.
Either Roys got a mountain to climb or he hasnt. And if he hasnt then he shouldnt have a problem sorting the "blip".

by **Benny The Noon** » Tue Sep 21, 2010 10:12 am

Is being in the top 4 just average now ? Agree that 7th is poor but is 4th and 3rd average now ?

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