Liverpool FC Forum

[woof woof !]

Indeed it is only six (premiership) games but I still find the results slightly worrying

0-0 at M'boro, two points dropped in my opinion .
1-0 against Sunderland , hardly inspiring
0-0 at Spurs , decent result ,they'll be up there fighting for a CL spot
0-0 home to Man U . disappointed but a respectable result
2-2 at Birmingham . expected a win , another two points dropped
1-4 losing to Chelsea was not a suprise but getting our a'rse smacked in the process certainly was .

On the plus side we can take heart from the fact that we've only lost one game ,and that was to the current premiership champions ,the draws against Spurs and Man U also provide evidence that we can hold are own against the better sides in our league . The two away draws at 'Boro and Birmingham however although achieving Rafa's stated ambition of making us tougher to beat away from home, hardly suggest that we are a team to be feared .We are the Champions of Europe for f'ucks sake , surely we are able to impose ourselves on the perennial also rans ?

Apart from our six premiership games we have also played seven competitve cup games ,it was expected that this would give us a significant edge over the teams we met in the early weeks of the league , but for me that edge has not materialised.We look no fitter ,sharper or cohesive than any of the sides we have met .Suely after a total of thirteen competitive matches a side should look as though it knows what it's about ? .But Crouch is still playing on his own ,Garcia continues to do his circus tricks and the left side of Warnock,Traore,Riise and Zenden has been shuffled more times that the only deck of card in a Vegas casino.

Many may see this as an attack on Rafa and the team , it's isn't . It just the concern of a fan whose dad took him to see his first Liverpool match in 1955 ! (yeah I am that old ) .I guess you could say I've seen it all , the highs the lows ,the class and the dross .At present we have a more than decent side and a manager that is trying to navigate the team through a period of transition ,He's made some great decisions , Alonso and Sissoko are just two of them , but he's also made some (imo) poor one's ,Crouch and 4-5-1 being the most obvious . I don't have a problem with 4-5-1 as an alternative strategy when the game demands it but shudder to think that it will become Liverpools bog standard style of play . Ok ,Rafa's the manager and it's his vision , I'm sure if it brings us success I'll not be moaning about it but it's not as if he started the job last week . He's been here fifteen months ,not long I know , but are we any nearer to the side that Rafa is dreaming of ? Some say the signing of a right winger will sort it out , no it won't ,it will certainly improve things but we'll still be 2-3 signings away from a side that can play effectively to Rafa's plan .
As manager Rafa has my support , but until he has the personnel to play the game his way I would prefer to see him play a system that employs two strikers , as I stated earlier in this thread I don't expect Rafa to be bringing us the Premiership trophy (certainly not in the near future ) I do however expect regular year in year out Champions League football ,so vital if we are to remain resurgent but our league performances so far have got me wondering if we're gonna end up scrapping for 5-6th place ,never mind top 4 . 

Whinge over .

[Ciggy]

Great post Woofster 

[bigmick]

Indeed it is only six (premiership) games but I still find the results slightly worrying

0-0 at M'boro, two points dropped in my opinion .
1-0 against Sunderland , hardly inspiring
0-0 at Spurs , decent result ,they'll be up there fighting for a CL spot
0-0 home to Man U . disappointed but a respectable result
2-2 at Birmingham . expected a win , another two points dropped
1-4 losing to Chelsea was not a suprise but getting our a'rse smacked in the process certainly was .

On the plus side we can take heart from the fact that we've only lost one game ,and that was to the current premiership champions ,the draws against Spurs and Man U also provide evidence that we can hold are own against the better sides in our league . The two away draws at 'Boro and Birmingham however although achieving Rafa's stated ambition of making us tougher to beat away from home, hardly suggest that we are a team to be feared .We are the Champions of Europe for f'ucks sake , surely we are able to impose ourselves on the perennial also rans ?

Apart from our six premiership games we have also played seven competitve cup games ,it was expected that this would give us a significant edge over the teams we met in the early weeks of the league , but for me that edge has not materialised.We look no fitter ,sharper or cohesive than any of the sides we have met .Suely after a total of thirteen competitive matches a side should look as though it knows what it's about ? .But Crouch is still playing on his own ,Garcia continues to do his circus tricks and the left side of Warnock,Traore,Riise and Zenden has been shuffled more times that the only deck of card in a Vegas casino.

Many may see this as an attack on Rafa and the team , it's isn't . It just the concern of a fan whose dad took him to see his first Liverpool match in 1955 ! (yeah I am that old ) .I guess you could say I've seen it all , the highs the lows ,the class and the dross .At present we have a more than decent side and a manager that is trying to navigate the team through a period of transition ,He's made some great decisions , Alonso and Sissoko are just two of them , but he's also made some (imo) poor one's ,Crouch and 4-5-1 being the most obvious . I don't have a problem with 4-5-1 as an alternative strategy when the game demands it but shudder to think that it will become Liverpools bog standard style of play . Ok ,Rafa's the manager and it's his vision , I'm sure if it brings us success I'll not be moaning about it but it's not as if he started the job last week . He's been here fifteen months ,not long I know , but are we any nearer to the side that Rafa is dreaming of ? Some say the signing of a right winger will sort it out , no it won't ,it will certainly improve things but we'll still be 2-3 signings away from a side that can play effectively to Rafa's plan .
As manager Rafa has my support , but until he has the personnel to play the game his way I would prefer to see him play a system that employs two strikers , as I stated earlier in this thread I don't expect Rafa to be bringing us the Premiership trophy (certainly not in the near future ) I do however expect regular year in year out Champions League football ,so vital if we are to remain resurgent but our league performances so far have got me wondering if we're gonna end up scrapping for 5-6th place ,never mind top 4 . 

Whinge over .

Absolutely brilliant post Woof. you leave nothing unsaid, definately the best post from the last few weeks.

[JBG]

Mmmm, I'm not so sure. I think there is a lot to be said in changing back to the 4-4-2 until we have the right players for 4-2-3-1, but I think people are looking for a miraclous improvement, which simply won't happen over night. In my opinion Rafa is still a year away from ironing out the problems we have with the smaller clubs, another year after that to really start putting severe pressure on Arsenal and Man UTD and probably another year again before we are capable of challenging Chelsea. Thats three years, provided all goes well, but I couldn't see another manager do it any better.

The Champions League win raised expectations to ludicrous levels. Our team and manager preformed brilliantly in a knock out competition, but that does not give us an automatic right to think that we should roll over the likes of Birmingham and Middlesboro just because we are European Champions. Istanbul simply didn't fix all of our problems, they still remain, but I think Rafa is slowly but surely fixing them.

The man needs time, and time he deserves, for he did, after all, win us the Champions League! Chelsea could spend £800m and still not win it, its that prestigious a tournament. Istanbul is in the past now and of course it cannot be used as an excuse to defend Rafa if we finish the league in mid table, but I honestly don't think we will. I think that we will finish in 4th place, do well in Europe again (although not to the same extent) and be more competitive overall. There will be a lot of pain and frustration on the way, but we'll get there.

Whats more, I think Crouch will prove the knockers wrong.

[Ola Mr Benitez]

Good Post JBG, Can't fault any of that. 

I especially agree with your point about Crouch, he will never score 20 goals a season, to be honest he will struggle to get 10, but I think he is vital to Raffs long term plan.  He appears to be doing everything the gaffer wants from him.  I also though he looked excellent playing alongside Owen on Saturday.  Some of the passes he played where simply excellent.

[bigmick]

No argument from me on Crouch. I think he's dione well sofar and unlike many I think he will score plenty of goals for us. Once the first one goes in he'll be off and running and if he plays regularly I would expect 15 in all competitions this season.

[JBG]

The thing is, in Rafa's 4-2-3-1 formation, the lone front man in sacrificed in terms of goals. Be it Moientes or Crouch, neither will do better than 15 goals in all competitions. I think Rafa's aim is that the bank of three behind the front man will accumulate around 30 between them. So far, two of these players, Gerrard and Garcia, have 11, so to a certain degree, in Europe at least, its working.

The Premiership is a different story, though.

[115-1073096938]

Indeed it is only six (premiership) games but I still find the results slightly worrying

0-0 at M'boro, two points dropped in my opinion .
1-0 against Sunderland , hardly inspiring
0-0 at Spurs , decent result ,they'll be up there fighting for a CL spot
0-0 home to Man U . disappointed but a respectable result
2-2 at Birmingham . expected a win , another two points dropped
1-4 losing to Chelsea was not a suprise but getting our a'rse smacked in the process certainly was .

On the plus side we can take heart from the fact that we've only lost one game ,and that was to the current premiership champions ,the draws against Spurs and Man U also provide evidence that we can hold are own against the better sides in our league . The two away draws at 'Boro and Birmingham however although achieving Rafa's stated ambition of making us tougher to beat away from home, hardly suggest that we are a team to be feared .We are the Champions of Europe for f'ucks sake , surely we are able to impose ourselves on the perennial also rans ?

Apart from our six premiership games we have also played seven competitve cup games ,it was expected that this would give us a significant edge over the teams we met in the early weeks of the league , but for me that edge has not materialised.We look no fitter ,sharper or cohesive than any of the sides we have met .Suely after a total of thirteen competitive matches a side should look as though it knows what it's about ? .But Crouch is still playing on his own ,Garcia continues to do his circus tricks and the left side of Warnock,Traore,Riise and Zenden has been shuffled more times that the only deck of card in a Vegas casino.

Many may see this as an attack on Rafa and the team , it's isn't . It just the concern of a fan whose dad took him to see his first Liverpool match in 1955 ! (yeah I am that old ) .I guess you could say I've seen it all , the highs the lows ,the class and the dross .At present we have a more than decent side and a manager that is trying to navigate the team through a period of transition ,He's made some great decisions , Alonso and Sissoko are just two of them , but he's also made some (imo) poor one's ,Crouch and 4-5-1 being the most obvious . I don't have a problem with 4-5-1 as an alternative strategy when the game demands it but shudder to think that it will become Liverpools bog standard style of play . Ok ,Rafa's the manager and it's his vision , I'm sure if it brings us success I'll not be moaning about it but it's not as if he started the job last week . He's been here fifteen months ,not long I know , but are we any nearer to the side that Rafa is dreaming of ? Some say the signing of a right winger will sort it out , no it won't ,it will certainly improve things but we'll still be 2-3 signings away from a side that can play effectively to Rafa's plan .
As manager Rafa has my support , but until he has the personnel to play the game his way I would prefer to see him play a system that employs two strikers , as I stated earlier in this thread I don't expect Rafa to be bringing us the Premiership trophy (certainly not in the near future ) I do however expect regular year in year out Champions League football ,so vital if we are to remain resurgent but our league performances so far have got me wondering if we're gonna end up scrapping for 5-6th place ,never mind top 4 . 

Whinge over .

You find the results worrying are you?

Well unlike most i'm a realist. Things are never as bad or as good as people seem to want them to be. Under Houllier it was all doom and gloom for the last few years, under Rafa last season everything was great, now its all doom and gloom again. I'm sorry, i'm alot more rational and alot less fickle and naive than that.

The results you mentioned:
1. Boro away, two points dropped? Yes definately. But that was down to our best player missing 3 or 4 sitters which on any other given day of the year he'd bury with his eyes closed. We dominated the game from start to finish and had numourous chances. It was just one of those days where the only thing missing was the finishing. It happens. Also an improvement on the result there last year.

2. Sunderland. Again we dominated the match and down to the likes of Cisse being a shithouse we'd have won by more than 1 goal. But still, 3 points is three points, doesn't matter weather you win 8-0 or 1-0. We won the game, thats satisfactory enough. We can't always win pretty.

3. Spurs, a decent result. We looked like the home side for most of the match, it was an even game and they have a good side.

4. Man Utd, another game we lost all the points in last season. Lets look at the positives. Rooney, RvN and Ronaldo and they managed one chance all game which wasn't an easy one. We shut them out. Again an improvement on last seasons corresponding fixture.

5. Brum, well, the first goals we conceeded and to be fair they were the first two defensive mistakes in the league this season, one was down to a goalkeeper lacking communication (Might have something to do with the fact he can't speak english) and the second down to a goalkeeping error. Again though, an improvement on last seasons results.

6. Chelsea, the game wasn't as one sided as the scoreline suggests. They are simply superb at the back and a very good and expensive side with a superb manager. You can't really expect to beat them in Rafa's second season.

Lets face it, that isn't the easiest set of fixtures for any side. Out of all the teams we've played theres only Sunderland who will lose more than they win. I would say Birmingham away and Boro away are hard game. Yes i'd like us to win at least one of the two, but how many teams are gonna go to these places and lose points?

We are six games into the season. Not even 10. I mean we've had a fairly rough start got some decent results, looked a better side than last year and have a rather large transfer kitty should THE RIGHT players become available.

Woof, again, you're on about 4-4-2. I'm sorry, but Alonso and Gerrard against Essien, Lampard and Makelele? Thats 3 on 2 mate. I don't care how good you are if you're playing against more players you're . If we played 4-4-2 against Charlton with Murphy, Smertin and Kishishev in there we'd struggle. Y

ou simpley can't play 4 midfielders against 5 or 6. You'll lose control of the match. I remember a few years ago in the CL when Houllier took Hamann off and "that was the reason we lost". The actual reason was lost control of the midfield which Hamann was part of down to Leverkusen playing 3-6-1 and a the defence not having the ability or knowlegde to push up and help the midfielders in certain area's. We'd already lost conrtol, Houllier's error wasn't taking Hamann off, he wanted more counter attacking and mobility in his midfield, his error was not pushing One of the full backs into midfield and Murphy into the middle to help with the numbers.

We saw it in the CL Final first half, Kaka kept getting the ball and always had two options in midfield to pass to. Gerrard and Alonso couldn't cope, if they mark Kaka then he lays it off to an unmarked player, if they don't mark kaka they they might aswell just give up.

Success comes from a system. I firmly believe in installing a system then assessing your problems. Not imagining what they will be. Once you can see the problems you can identify how to sort them and which players will help you do that.

[Ola Mr Benitez]

STR.  I agree with some of your points, however, foootballs primary objective is too score goals, we may have played well in some of the games you mentioned but how many goal scoring oppourtunities have we had so far this season... I don't know the answer, but would say, Not Enough. You say we look better than last year, I'm not so sure.  I think away from home we are better, but at Anfield, we look a little average. That said, Raffa did want to tighten up are away form, and he has done that.

I agree against certain team you need to keep the middle of the park tight, which is what Raffa is doing, but in certain games, especially at home, we should be lining up 442 and become the more offensive side.

I think Raffa is deffo the man for the job, but as mentioned in other posts, he is not above criticism.

[115-1073096938]

STR.  I agree with some of your points, however, foootballs primary objective is too score goals, we may have played well in some of the games you mentioned but how many goal scoring oppourtunities have we had so far this season... I don't know the answer, but would say, Not Enough. You say we look better than last year, I'm not so sure.  I think away from home we are better, but at Anfield, we look a little average. That said, Raffa did want to tighten up are away form, and he has done that.

I agree against certain team you need to keep the middle of the park tight, which is what Raffa is doing, but in certain games, especially at home, we should be lining up 442 and become the more offensive side.

I think Raffa is deffo the man for the job, but as mentioned in other posts, he is not above criticism.

Right.

I don't mean to sound patronising here but you clearly haven't thought about you're arguement to say that.

We've played three games at Anfield mate. We've won one, drew one and lost one. We've played the best two teams in the league at home this season. Please think about you're arguement.

The only game we've been EXEPCTED to win we have. We've Matched ManU, and the game against Chelsea wasn't as bad as people made out. Had the clown not played at left back and Sami hadn't been sick in the week i think it would have tighter than that. We know where our short comings are, we are struggling to score, couple that with Chelsea's defence and we're going to struggle at the minute.

Had we played Fulham, Portsmouth and Sunderland, or even Birmingham and Boro at home. I'd agree and i'd also be worried. But the fact is we've played 6 games.

We have without question played the two best teams in the league at home, we've played a side that is more than likely going to qualify for AT LEAST the uefa cup (spurs) and another one who should be there or there abouts in Boro.

Come back in another 6 games, if the forms the same we don't look like improving then i'll voice concerns, but to start now, after 6 games when you've already played the best two teams in the league, uefa cup candidates away and a team thats going to scrap for every point they can get only having lost one game and kept 4 clean sheets is rediculous in my view.

[maximus]

Lets face it, that isn't the easiest set of fixtures for any side. Out of all the teams we've played theres only Sunderland who will lose more than they win. I would say Birmingham away and Boro away are hard game. Yes i'd like us to win at least one of the two, but how many teams are gonna go to these places and lose points?

We are six games into the season. Not even 10. I mean we've had a fairly rough start got some decent results, looked a better side than last year and have a rather large transfer kitty should THE RIGHT players become available.

Following on from Stu's point, I would like to add our fixture list for the rest of the year:

Blackburn Home
Fulham Away
West Ham Home
Villa away
P'mouth Home
City Away
Wigan Home
Boro Home
Newcastle Home
Everton Away
WBA Home

Now there are 1 or 2 tough games in there but in the main they are all very winnable. I would also like to think that the home games especially are dare I say it......bankers   

[stmichael]

No argument from me on Crouch. I think he's dione well sofar and unlike many I think he will score plenty of goals for us. Once the first one goes in he'll be off and running and if he plays regularly I would expect 15 in all competitions this season.

i agree. i couldn't believe the stick he was getting after the england game the other day. i thought he was one of our better players. at the end of the day, how can he be expected to score goals when he is being forced to do all of his work about 40 yards out with his back to goal?

also, unlike you bigmick, i still think morientes will come good. i refuse to think that a player of his undoubted class cannot cut it in this division.

[115-1073096938]

Lets face it, that isn't the easiest set of fixtures for any side. Out of all the teams we've played theres only Sunderland who will lose more than they win. I would say Birmingham away and Boro away are hard game. Yes i'd like us to win at least one of the two, but how many teams are gonna go to these places and lose points?

We are six games into the season. Not even 10. I mean we've had a fairly rough start got some decent results, looked a better side than last year and have a rather large transfer kitty should THE RIGHT players become available.

Following on from Stu's point, I would like to add our fixture list for the rest of the year:

Blackburn Home
Fulham Away
West Ham Home
Villa away
P'mouth Home
City Away
Wigan Home
Boro Home
Newcastle Home
Everton Away
WBA Home

Now there are 1 or 2 tough games in there but in the main they are all very winnable. I would also like to think that the home games especially are dare I say it......bankers   

I'd expect AT LEAST 22 points from those games.

Blackburn Home (3)
Fulham Away (1)
West Ham Home (3)
Villa away (1)
P'mouth Home (3)
City Away (0)
Wigan Home (3)
Boro Home (3)
Newcastle Home (3)
Everton Away (0)
WBA Home (3)

No i'm taking into account we'll lose to City and Everton, i'm not sayin thats what will happen, i dunno, but i'm sayin that would probably be a half acceptable points return. Obviously we should aim higher, but 22 at this stage of the rebuilding process will be satisfactory.

That would leave us on...

P      W      D     L    PTS
17     8      6      3      30

Which isn't to bad a first half of the season.

[Ola Mr Benitez]

STR.  I agree with some of your points, however, foootballs primary objective is too score goals, we may have played well in some of the games you mentioned but how many goal scoring oppourtunities have we had so far this season... I don't know the answer, but would say, Not Enough. You say we look better than last year, I'm not so sure.  I think away from home we are better, but at Anfield, we look a little average. That said, Raffa did want to tighten up are away form, and he has done that.

I agree against certain team you need to keep the middle of the park tight, which is what Raffa is doing, but in certain games, especially at home, we should be lining up 442 and become the more offensive side.

I think Raffa is deffo the man for the job, but as mentioned in other posts, he is not above criticism.

Right.

I don't mean to sound patronising here but you clearly haven't thought about you're arguement to say that.

We've played three games at Anfield mate. We've won one, drew one and lost one. We've played the best two teams in the league at home this season. Please think about you're arguement.

The only game we've been EXEPCTED to win we have. We've Matched ManU, and the game against Chelsea wasn't as bad as people made out. Had the clown not played at left back and Sami hadn't been sick in the week i think it would have tighter than that. We know where our short comings are, we are struggling to score, couple that with Chelsea's defence and we're going to struggle at the minute.

Had we played Fulham, Portsmouth and Sunderland, or even Birmingham and Boro at home. I'd agree and i'd also be worried. But the fact is we've played 6 games.

We have without question played the two best teams in the league at home, we've played a side that is more than likely going to qualify for AT LEAST the uefa cup (spurs) and another one who should be there or there abouts in Boro.

Come back in another 6 games, if the forms the same we don't look like improving then i'll voice concerns, but to start now, after 6 games when you've already played the best two teams in the league, uefa cup candidates away and a team thats going to scrap for every point they can get only having lost one game and kept 4 clean sheets is rediculous in my view.

My problem is not so much the result of the games but the way we are
1. set up to play
and 2. the amount of shots on target... in fact, just the amount of shots. 

Its not good enough. especially at home.  That is what I meant by my previous post.

[woof woof !]

[quote="stu_the_red"]Woof, again, you're on about 4-4-2. I'm sorry, but Alonso and Gerrard against Essien, Lampard and Makelele? Thats 3 on 2 mate. I don't care how good you are if you're playing against more players ......

If you actually digested my post you'll see that I say quite clearly that I don't have a problem with 451 when the game demands it .

As for your assesment of the matches played , tbh if you look you'll see their not far away from what Ii have already  said ,with the exception of Boro' and Birmingham who I really expected us to beat .

Yes I am advocating a return to 442 and the basic reason is ,people can talk till the cows come home about Crouch getting into gear and support coming from the midfield and when the winger arrives  blah blah  blah . Right now non of the above is happening ,with two up front we might actually start to win a few games picking up 3 points instead of 1 .

Anyway I've had my moan , Let's see what the next six games bring .