Liverpool FC Forum

[Rafa D]

Another season over for the mighty Reds and another far flung final for the Red army to travel to. The league title challenge that the pundits and fans predicted, unfortunately, failed to materialised but our performances in the Champions League got us to our 2nd final in 3 years. Sure the result was not what we wanted and the ugly scenes that have tarnished our support could of been avoided but nevertheless its another generally successful season for Liverpool Football Club.

With the new owners, Hicks and Gilett, finally sealing the deal for the club after over 2 years of looking for potential buyers it seems the club is heading in the right direction off the pitch also. Every noise from the Americans has been a good one and with the promise of money and investment on the playing field for "Rawfa" can only bode well for Liverpool over the summer months.

Rafa came out fighting yesterday and was in an extremely unfamilar mood with his bullish attitude of who can leave and what we need to do this summer to make sure another season of league medioricity is not on the cards.  It was the weirdest interview I have ever seen him give and I had never seen that side of him before and was slightly shocked. However if Rafa's angry, it can only be good for Liverpool.

This season with the money being promised, Rafa knows he has to perform and live up to the fans expectations. No excuses, no blame, its Rafa's job to get it right this year and he knows it.

So onto the topic at hand, how do you think Rafa will go about reclaiming our title as the Champions of England. I am not talking about the zillions of threads asking about who we should sell, who we should buy, what drink we should have at half time. I am talking about Rafa's tactics to try and claim number 19.

In his first 2 seasons here, Rafa adopted his tried and tested 4-5-1 formation that served him so well in La Liga with Valencia where he overcome the dominance of Barcelona and Real Madrid to win the La Liga for a unfancied Valencia side. It was very effective and you wouldn't of expected him to change his plans so radically. The first season was a bit of a write off bar the Champions League win. He played the 4-5-1 system but had to fit the players into his system as he had not signed most of the players in the squad, we finished 5th and those magical six minutes in Istanbul saved us from a summer of ridicule by the bitters who somehow managed to finish above us. However the second season is a bit easier to look into. He started it once again with is 4-5-1 formation using a lone striker, normally Peter Crouch. I think that season it was very successful for us. We had the problem of not scoring many goals, and some said it was too defensive, but as Rafa pointed out countless times, it can easliy be interepreted as 4-3-3 if we needed to chase the game etc. That season, I truly believe if it wasn't for the Chelsea effect, we would of won the league playing the 4-5-1. Also if we would of had a world class striker that we seem to be courting for this summer, we could of easliy scored those few extra goals to put serious pressure on the rent boys of Chavski. The balance was perfect with Gerrard and Kewell on the wings and little Luis could fit into the hole perfectly and thats where he was at his best for me.

This season saw a influx of new players and 2 brand new strikers to go with Crouch and Fowler. Rafa started most of the games this season with the 4-4-2. I don't know whether he changed his mind from the season before, or whether he felt we didn't have the right personal in the first 2 seasons to play a 4-4-2, but he changed it and I feel its been a step back in our progress. Sure we now have the 2 men up front so on paper it looks like we are more attacking, but how often do our strikers come deep to get the ball, making it look like a 4-5-1 or a 4-6-0?

The balance of the team wasn't there this year like it was the year before and the defensive solidarity we forged, blew up in smoke in the early part of the season. Aggers interegation could be partly to blame for that, also the loss of Kewell on the left which unbalanced the team no end but I feel that we played better football with the 4-5-1 the season before. And I suspect Rafa does too.


So now what formation do you think Rafa will adopt next season? I know he varies it from game to game, but he normally plays a majority of the games with a set formation if the last 3 years are anything to go by.

Me personally I feel and I hope he goes back to the 4-5-1 for next season. He knows the system inside out and has been developing it from his Valencia days. I feel we have the perfect midfield and defence to play this with the back four practically picking itself and having the benefit (agger permitting) of playing a whole season together with it and going on a record breaking run of clean sheets. The arrival of Maschereno has increased the competition in the centre of the park with Sissoko, Xabi, Stevie and Masch all having good arguments for their place in the first eleven. Personally I like to see Maschereno, Xabi and Sissoko fighting it out for the two slots in the middle, Stevie put back onto the right in a 4-5-1 formation where he scored all those goals from in that formation. I know Stevie's postion is a subject of fierce debate among Liverpool fans but I think putting him out there, with the 5 men in midfield gives him the option of a free role if you like, where he can come in, cut outside and generally play all over the park to terrify the opposition. Its much harder to mark him if he is given the freedom to do what he wants like he was last season. And if he isn't getting any joy out of one player, he can move to try his luck against another, he's that good to move around like this.

Harry Kewell can play the left midfield position brilliantly as he did last season, but he cannot be relied upon to stay fit, so it seems a new left winger, one of substancial quality, will be arriving in the summer so with him and Harry as back up or vica-versa, we could be sorted for the left midfield slot as well.

As I have stated before, Luis can fit into the hole, and Dirk who seems to like to drop deep can easliy play that position also. And of course, if injuries play a part, Gerrard can occupy it and Pennant can come in on the right.

Now the only tiny problem I had with the 4-5-1 was sometimes we made it look very difficult to score. Some say its too defensive but I don't believe that to be true. It is defensively sound and its a great base for not conceding goals, but with the right players, I feel the systems perfect. Bellamy is probably going in the summer, but the good news is, that a world class striker, if Rafa is to be believd (along with the papers, is definitely arriving at Anfield this summer. Eto'o and Villa are two of the names being banded around and if we can get the right player to play that role for us, I think the system and the personal for it will be complete.

For example:

--------------Reina-----------------

Finnan----Carra----Agger------Riise

--------Alonso---Maschereno--------

Gerard-----------------------Kewell(or whoever we buy)

------------Luis/Kuyt---------------

-----------New Striker/Crouch---------


Your thoughts?

[Sabre]

Tactics are not one better than another.

It depends on opposition. Even under the 442 tactics, there are a lot of variants.

So quite simply it's a good thing we master both of them, and I wouldn't discuss which one is better, because it depends on the case.

The 4-4-1-1 was the right one to start against Milan IMHO. Ask Ferguson.


P.S. In a couple of games against a weaker opposition we used a 3 centre back approach, do you remember the game? Watford away maybe? it was a 0-3 or a 1-3 I think (we won). It's nice to have a wide range of mastered formations

[Judge]

1-9, that might do it

[stmichael]

4-5-1 can work if you have the right personnel in the formation.

however rafa got it majorly wrong the other night. kuyt is never a lone striker in a million years and gerrard is wasted as a second striker.

you can maybe switch him there late on when you're chasing the game but he's not comfortable playing there from the start.

[whylongball?]

Imho 4-5-1 is only good when you have good wingers. Right now we dont have any decent wingers at all except SG. Kewell, Pennant, Luis: NO. Chelsea was so successful cos they had best wingers in the league.
And i also agree with stmichael on Kuyt playing as lone striker and SG second striker.

[Scottbot]

Can't remember what the title was but Red started a good thread on formations that ran for several pages a couple of months back. most of my thoughts are in there. It's probably worth a bump.

[cpc4eva]

wats happened to 4 2 4

its like it doesnt exist anymore

4 defenders to sit back and absorb the attack

2 midfielders to accept the passes from the back

4 options in attack for the midfielders to get the ball to

4 passing options in attack to drive the defence deep and put maximum pressure on

4 quality options to have quality shots on goal....

wats all this long range shot business that going on with the reds these days

[account deleted by request]

I don't think Rafa has actually played 4-4-2 overly much this season, more of a 4-4-1-1/4-5-1 with Kuyt playing as the 1 behind our main striker Crouch when played together. I think much depends on the players he brings in obviously. If he gets Tevez he would be perfect for the 4-4-1-1 formation, he is a more natural player for the role than Kuyt. Kuyt for all his admirable work rate, has no real pace, and has shown little flair, which for me are 2 of the pre-requisites for the role.

Obviously the loss of Garcia for much of the season has affected Rafa's options, as he is a more natural  "in the hole player" than Kuyt, and Gerrard has never looked at his best when filling that role.

I don't expect we will be much different tactically next season, but with better players and options hopefully we will see a big improvement.

[Emerald Red]

I think it's pointless to even try to surmise tactics until the new faces at Anfield become clear, and how the gel into the team, or if they are applicable in certain areas or not.

Personally, a 4-5-1 away from home is ideal, if a little negative at times. Though it was only negative considering our lack of punch of front. The ballance of that formation was a little off. With a world class front man, and two quality wingers (like whylongball? said) then we'd be as strong away from home as we are at home IMO.

Home formation - well, you could have your pick there from any variation of 4-4-2 or even 3-5-2. If we get world class personnel on our flanks, with two quality front men leading attacks, we'd be a scary outfit to face at home and could just literally rip teams to shreds.

[Penguins]

4-5-1 might work better than 4-4-2 or vice versa.
As long as you have the right players on each position it won't matter.

But for example you can put out a 4-5-1 with defensive minded players or players with no offensive upside.


Playing 4-5-1 with Zenden Sissoko Alonso pennant in midfield
and gerrard and Kuyt up top you are doomed cause who will score the goals, who will create opportunities?
No one, that's who
Doesn't help when our full back never joins the attacks either.



playing 4-5-1 with more offensive quality like

Quaresma Gerrard Alonso/masch Joaquin in midfield and
Tevez and Eto'o up top i can see plaenty of players going forward, creating chances and scoring goals.
All about quality in the final 3rd.
Having Alves as full back supporting the attack does help too.

[LFC2007]

4-5-1 might work better than 4-4-2 or vice versa.
As long as you have the right players on each position it won't matter.

But for example you can put out a 4-5-1 with defensive minded players or players with no offensive upside.


Playing 4-5-1 with Zenden Sissoko Alonso pennant in midfield
and gerrard and Kuyt up top you are doomed cause who will score the goals, who will create opportunities?
No one, that's who
Doesn't help when our full back never joins the attacks either.



playing 4-5-1 with more offensive quality like

Quaresma Gerrard Alonso/masch Joaquin in midfield and
Tevez and Eto'o up top i can see plaenty of players going forward, creating chances and scoring goals.
All about quality in the final 3rd.
Having Alves as full back supporting the attack does help too.

Different strategies for different opposition, yes we need a general strategy for most games but things will change depending on the opposition.


Our fullbacks do get forward. You may not have noticed Finnan on the overlap delivering crosses, but everyone else has, it's no coincidence that 95% of our goals in europe were from crosses.

Quaresma, Gerrard, Mascherano and Joaquin!!!

Tevez and Eto'o up top, Alves as a fullback.

It's nice to get caught up in tabloid land from time to time, but come on, Rafa has said before that he didn't want Joaquin, and as for Eto'o, he's said he is happy in Spain.

Get realistic about things.

Do you really think we can afford to bring in 5 players of such value, do we really need those 5 players anyway???

Maybe, Quaresma and Tevez are realistic targets, but the others are unlikely to come here.

[dawson99]

Different strategies for different situations is good, but sometimes id like to see rafa say:
"f*ck it, let them change for us, lets get at 'em."

Obviosuly if wed won it would have been perfect strategy but considering where we stood after half time i think rafa left it a bit late to bring on crouchy.

As for this signings business, Joaquin is not worth what hes being touted for, and neither is torres. Villa scored another 2 goals tonight, but then again so did forlan!!!

id like to see et'oo here of course, could change the whole dynamic of the team havng a player like that.

[Redrulz(lfc)]

play dimond with tevez

[Rupi]

For me 4-5-1 must be only used away and/or against big teams:
Playing 4-5-1 needs a top lone striker (we don't have IMO, perhaps Crouch on big days, but...), and a top offensive midfielder or second striker (maybe Gerrard as OM, but much more useful as CM, or Kuyt as SS.... but any of them are top for that position)

I'd like to see us playing in 4-4-2 (or 3-5-2, but that's not the question of the topic ), with one defensive midfielder, one central midfielder and 2 wingers.

My ideal team:

-----------------------------Reina----------------------------

--Finnan-----------Carra-----------Agger-------------Riise--

-------------------------Mascherano-------------------------

Pennant(or new RW)---Gerrard---Kewell(or new LW)

---------------Kuyt/Crouch-----New Striker-----------------


Bring on new striker Hicks & Gillett!

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