Liverpool FC Forum

[Igor Zidane]

listen mate i can agree with things like that.
it doesnt make me hero worship him though.
I would probably have more admiration for things like that if a decent chunk of our supporters hadnt elevated him to god like status for them.
It might seem petty and even possibly childish but it really bothers me that he is held in that high esteem.
And people like Aldo can be abused for airing their personal view about him.
He isnt shanks ffs.

No Ben your right , he's not shanks not by a long chalk mate . He is however the nearest thing we've had to him since kenny resigned and that's what the fans who love him see . Maybe you don't feel like that and that's fine , but don't let that get in the way of his achievements mate .

[7_Kewell]

I would probably have more admiration for things like that if a decent chunk of our supporters hadnt elevated him to god like status for them.
It might seem petty and even possibly childish but it really bothers me that he is held in that high esteem.
And people like Aldo can be abused for airing their personal view about him.
He isnt shanks ffs.

That’s because you recognise that  Rafa plays the system. He’s a politician and he’s very good at telling people (generally the fans) what they want to hear. He’s also good at using the media for his own means, especially when it comes to negotiating contracts and the like. Anyone remember Rafa refusing to rule himself out for the England job a few years ago? He says these things for a reason, and there’s always an agenda.
Some of us see through it, some of us don’t.

[Ben Patrick]

Ben if you sack your manager . You do so to emloy somone better . Did that happen ? No so it was the wrong decision . Or was that it was a case of sack rafa and f.uck what happens next ? Was it who gives a sh.it aslong as rafa is gone ? Is that the way to run a football club?

ok now i understand a little more where our problem lies.
I actually do think that Rafa had to go, no question.
You can say that Roy wasnt the right man, and it would appear to be right.
The thing is though i think Rafa would have continued his decline and his recent poor record with money used on transfers and we would have been in a similar position.
We are close to where we were last season yet supposedly have an clueless owl in charge ?

There is no way in the world anyone will convince me that Rafa deserved more time and i think come the end of this season Roy will have us finishing in the same sort of position.
Which isnt good enough, but people will still think Rafa should come back.

[Ben Patrick]

listen mate i can agree with things like that.
it doesnt make me hero worship him though.
I would probably have more admiration for things like that if a decent chunk of our supporters hadnt elevated him to god like status for them.
It might seem petty and even possibly childish but it really bothers me that he is held in that high esteem.
And people like Aldo can be abused for airing their personal view about him.
He isnt shanks ffs.

No Ben your right , he's not shanks not by a long chalk mate . He is however the nearest thing we've had to him since kenny resigned and that's what the fans who love him see . Maybe you don't feel like that and that's fine , but don't let that get in the way of his achievements mate .

i wont.

I was as happy as anyone with the fa and champions league wins.
Its just that they were 4 years ago and there were no signs of us winning anything recently under Rafa (as there arent under Roy)

[LFC2007]

Two points ER
1. Benitez is an intelligent man. Very intelligent, and he knows the power of the media. Especially how it can influence fans. He does nothing without analysing and thinking about what he does and why and when he does it. That is not conspiracy. It is thought out, pre- planning. But only the most ignorant would not believe that he knows exactly what he is doing when he goes public. He likes to use the media to get his point across in a more powerful way. The irony of it is that when he does this it bites him on the Fu*king ar'se!
2. Not backed at Valencia- goes public-gone
    Not backed at Liverpool- goes public-gone
    Not backed at Inter- goes public-gone
There is a pattern there which is glaringly obvious...

I don't agree with that, either. Someone so calculated and very intelligent would go about their business with far more tact than Rafa has ever belied in his press conferences.

[Igor Zidane]

Ben if you sack your manager . You do so to emloy somone better . Did that happen ? No so it was the wrong decision . Or was that it was a case of sack rafa and f.uck what happens next ? Was it who gives a sh.it aslong as rafa is gone ? Is that the way to run a football club?

ok now i understand a little more where our problem lies.
I actually do think that Rafa had to go, no question.
You can say that Roy wasnt the right man, and it would appear to be right.
The thing is though i think Rafa would have continued his decline and his recent poor record with money used on transfers and we would have been in a similar position.
We are close to where we were last season yet supposedly have an clueless owl in charge ?

There is no way in the world anyone will convince me that Rafa deserved more time and i think come the end of this season Roy will have us finishing in the same sort of position.
Which isnt good enough, but people will still think Rafa should come back.

Ok hindsight is a wonderful thing . If you new then what you know now i.e roy being the manager and the state of the team on the pitch .Would you still sack rafa?

[Ben Patrick]

Ben if you sack your manager . You do so to emloy somone better . Did that happen ? No so it was the wrong decision . Or was that it was a case of sack rafa and f.uck what happens next ? Was it who gives a sh.it aslong as rafa is gone ? Is that the way to run a football club?

ok now i understand a little more where our problem lies.
I actually do think that Rafa had to go, no question.
You can say that Roy wasnt the right man, and it would appear to be right.
The thing is though i think Rafa would have continued his decline and his recent poor record with money used on transfers and we would have been in a similar position.
We are close to where we were last season yet supposedly have an clueless owl in charge ?

There is no way in the world anyone will convince me that Rafa deserved more time and i think come the end of this season Roy will have us finishing in the same sort of position.
Which isnt good enough, but people will still think Rafa should come back.

Ok hindsight is a wonderful thing . If you new then what you know now i.e roy being the manager and the state of the team on the pitch .Would you still sack rafa?

yes 100%


I would just have not employed Roy.

This is the part that i think divides us all most.

Do you think if we hadnt brought in Roy that Rafa should still be here ?
You see the two things are totally seperate decisions.
I am not sure what managers you rate but if we could have tempted one of them instead of Roy would you still want Rafa ahead of this other person as well ?

[Igor Zidane]

You probably got the wrong end of the stick. That post was to say that there was nothing inevitable about our decline, just as there was nothing inevitable about Inter's decline. It was not bound to be the case that whoever took over would have found themselves in 9th and 7th respectively. In common parlence, I am saying that Roy has fecked it upjust as Rafa has fecked it up at Inter. Don't you think that's about right?

On your other point, believe it not, I agree with you that Rafa was our best manager since Kenny, but that's probably one of the main reasons we haven't been anything like as successful as we should have been over that time. It doesn't mean he was a "great" manager though because a great manager would have had us challenging for the title more often than he managed to, but it means he betters the other managers we've had in that period, and we had a couple of good managers.

Your right i did get the wrong end of the stick and for that i apologise . To the rest of your post i don't agree with it all but i can see your point of view . There are extenuating circustances imo .but you'll probably not accept them and see them as another rafapology , yer know the it's purslow it's parry type of thing .

[Thommo's perm]

Glad to see your happy with roy then . Jesus christ , did rafa attempt to rape you or somthing . Rafa was the best manager we had since kenny and to attempt to belittle his achievements or to have him as some sort of cr@p manager who squandered millions but never did f.uck all is a sad reflection of your inability to see that we got rid of the wrong man and employed a friggin hasbeen who had done absolutely nothing in comparison .

Major major f.uck that fans who wanted rafa out helped instigate , and that's why you are like the way you are , guilt because you called it wrong and now we are in a right mess.

You probably got the wrong end of the stick. That post was to say that there was nothing inevitable about our decline, just as there was nothing inevitable about Inter's decline. It was not bound to be the case that whoever took over would have found themselves in 9th and 7th respectively. In common parlence, I am saying that Roy has fecked it upjust as Rafa has fecked it up at Inter. Don't you think that's about right?

On your other point, believe it not, I agree with you that Rafa was our best manager since Kenny, but that's probably one of the main reasons we haven't been anything like as successful as we should have been over that time. It doesn't mean he was a "great" manager though because a great manager would have had us challenging for the title more often than he managed to, but it means he betters the other managers we've had in that period, and we had a couple of good managers.

I disagree
I believe it was inevitable that we had to go down before we came back up. Maybe, as the reporter said about Inter, it was inevitable for them as well.
The difference is what the manager has inherited, and to make the case that Roy is out of his depth because of our current standing, but Benitez is a victim for his under achieving is very strange indeed.

[Ben Patrick]

Glad to see your happy with roy then . Jesus christ , did rafa attempt to rape you or somthing . Rafa was the best manager we had since kenny and to attempt to belittle his achievements or to have him as some sort of cr@p manager who squandered millions but never did f.uck all is a sad reflection of your inability to see that we got rid of the wrong man and employed a friggin hasbeen who had done absolutely nothing in comparison .

Major major f.uck that fans who wanted rafa out helped instigate , and that's why you are like the way you are , guilt because you called it wrong and now we are in a right mess.

You probably got the wrong end of the stick. That post was to say that there was nothing inevitable about our decline, just as there was nothing inevitable about Inter's decline. It was not bound to be the case that whoever took over would have found themselves in 9th and 7th respectively. In common parlence, I am saying that Roy has fecked it upjust as Rafa has fecked it up at Inter. Don't you think that's about right?

On your other point, believe it not, I agree with you that Rafa was our best manager since Kenny, but that's probably one of the main reasons we haven't been anything like as successful as we should have been over that time. It doesn't mean he was a "great" manager though because a great manager would have had us challenging for the title more often than he managed to, but it means he betters the other managers we've had in that period, and we had a couple of good managers.

I disagree
I believe it was inevitable that we had to go down before we came back up. Maybe, as the reporter said about Inter, it was inevitable for them as well.
The difference is what the manager has inherited, and to make the case that Roy is out of his depth because of our current standing, but Benitez is a victim for his under achieving is very strange indeed.

it would be interesting to hear people's stance on that very point ?

[LFC2007]

I disagree
I believe it was inevitable that we had to go down before we came back up. Maybe, as the reporter said about Inter, it was inevitable for them as well.
The difference is what the manager has inherited, and to make the case that Roy is out of his depth because of our current standing, but Benitez is a victim for his under achieving is very strange indeed.

I meant the full extent of the decline. So, while we couldn't have expected to bounce back into the CL immediately (with hindsight at least), under a better manager we'd have a few more points on the board (beating Blackpool for a start) and would have beaten Northampton in the Carling Cup. Those defeats weren't inevitable. The same goes for Inter in some of the games they've played. I wouldn't have expected them to be on course for another treble because teams just don't do that very often, but to stay within a few points of the leaders of serie "A" wasn't asking much; so beating Brescia or taking points off Roma or Lazio, or Milan, yeah they should have done better.

[RED BEERGOGGLES]

listen mate i can agree with things like that.
it doesnt make me hero worship him though.
I would probably have more admiration for things like that if a decent chunk of our supporters hadnt elevated him to god like status for them.
It might seem petty and even possibly childish but it really bothers me that he is held in that high esteem.
And people like Aldo can be abused for airing their personal view about him.
He isnt shanks ffs.

No Ben he isn't Shanks no one is ,or ever will be ,likewise Paisley and  Dalglish and Houllier and Benitez ....everyone all different, and raised by fans to a Legendary status because they won trophies, and were involved in our journey in evolving into the the most successful team in England .... people will always love them that's never going to alter no matter what posters believe
personally I find it bemusing how Houllier isnt given the credit in what he achieved ...he roused this club from its slumber ,but I was still among those who felt he should leave for the general well being of this club we love ... Benitez another manager who shook us up and made the fans realize that we were here to win things not just compete .... he took us to a European Final and we emerged as winners ..... but in getting there we looked and played like champions ...the spirit Benitez instilled back into the club should never be underrated .... and for that I and countless others continue to put the man on a pedestal ...... and like I said that's never likely to change ,because like it or not his name is always going to be associated with being a major part of our illustrious history

[Igor Zidane]

yes 100%


I would just have not employed Roy.

This is the part that i think divides us all most.

Do you think if we hadnt brought in Roy that Rafa should still be here ?
You see the two things are totally seperate decisions.
I am not sure what managers you rate but if we could have tempted one of them instead of Roy would you still want Rafa ahead of this other person as well ?

What i did say ben at the time and you can look back on the threads is this . If we sack rafa there is not a chance in a million years that a world class manager will come anywhere near us with the owners we have . I was right , because it was glareingly obvious. Now if we had employed a hiddink or a mourinho or someone of that calibre we would not be having the flame wars we have now . We would have seen that the board were sacking benitez (as much as we hated it ) for the right reasons. .To get someone better in , to progress to take the next step or whatever . We would be united behind and ambitious manager with top class credentials and even if we were in the position we are in now we still would have backed him and given him time (as we do ).

We could see though that it would be disasterous to sack rafa as no one else wanted the job . Accept a 64year old nobody who thought all his christmas's had come at once . LMA manager of the year and all that . Friggin george burley won that .

[Thommo's perm]

I disagree
I believe it was inevitable that we had to go down before we came back up. Maybe, as the reporter said about Inter, it was inevitable for them as well.
The difference is what the manager has inherited, and to make the case that Roy is out of his depth because of our current standing, but Benitez is a victim for his under achieving is very strange indeed.

I meant the full extent of the decline. So, while we couldn't have expected to bounce back into the CL immediately (with hindsight at least), a better manager would have a few more points on the board (beating Blackpool for a start) and would have beaten Northampton in the Carling Cup. Those defeats weren't inevitable. The same goes for Inter in some of the games they've played. I wouldn't have expected them to be on course for another treble because teams just don't do that very often, but to stay within a few points of the leaders of serie "A" wasn't asking much; so beating Brescia or taking points off Roma or Lazio, or Milan, yeah they should have done better.

Thats not really he case though is it? Because if you judge one manager better than another because of a few points at this stage of the season we would be changing our mind every single week.
To be fair to Benitez I believe the Italians over-react to table positions too soon, but thats the nature of Serie A

[Ben Patrick]

listen mate i can agree with things like that.
it doesnt make me hero worship him though.
I would probably have more admiration for things like that if a decent chunk of our supporters hadnt elevated him to god like status for them.
It might seem petty and even possibly childish but it really bothers me that he is held in that high esteem.
And people like Aldo can be abused for airing their personal view about him.
He isnt shanks ffs.

No Ben he isn't Shanks no one is ,or ever will be ,likewise Paisley and  Dalglish and Houllier and Benitez ....everyone all different, and raised by fans to a Legendary status because they won trophies, and were involved in our journey in evolving into the the most successful team in England .... people will always love them that's never going to alter no matter what posters believe
personally I find it bemusing how Houllier isnt given the credit in what he achieved ...he roused this club from its slumber ,but I was still among those who felt he should leave for the general well being of this club we love ... Benitez another manager who shook us up and made the fans realize that we were here to win things not just compete .... he took us to a European Final and we emerged as winners ..... but in getting there we looked and played like champions ...the spirit Benitez instilled back into the club should never be underrated .... and for that I and countless others continue to put the man on a pedestal ...... and like I said that's never likely to change ,because like it or not his name is always going to be associated with being a major part of our illustrious history

agree with all of that.