Liverpool FC Forum

[Homebooby]

Stats can be made to mean pretty much anything you want.

For example where he says "In the 2006/07 season, Sir Alex Ferguson used a total of 23 players en route to the title. At Anfield, Benitez used six more.

Significantly, five of those selected by Benitez only featured in Liverpool's last three games of the season when the focus had shifted from domestic to continental pursuits with key first team players making way for youngsters as the Champions League final loomed"

What it does not say is how these extra players where used.  Did Fergusson use 23 different players but never changed more than 2 between 2 games or did he make 4 or 5 changes to his team.

I believe rotatation is the right way, but it has to be the right rotation..

My thoughts exactly. How often did Ferguson "rotate" an apparently fit and on form player out of premiership game ?.

Exactly...the good start that we had faltered as soon as we started rotating. Teams need familiarity to build a rhythm and we're yet to find it again. At the beginning of the season I think we all saw a glimmer of the reds we truly remember and love...They have the capbility.

Personally I think way too much emphasis is placed on the whole thing. Build a strong squad and pick your strongest team from that. Let the confidence grow and watch the premiership roll our way.

These guys are in the prime of their youth, trained to the peak of physical fitness for the sole purpose of playing football a couple of times a week, let them play for gods sake. I hear the pay isn't too bad either.

[welsh wizzard]

my liverpool hero is playing for another club.

liverpool don't have many true heroes or legends playing for them.

you look at manu and there are loads all over the place, the same for arsenholes and chelsea.

yet i've got to see my hero playing for a 2 bob club like newcastle.

i'll get off rafas back if owen comes back.

i don't care if owen is so injured he could not play for for us again, i just want him back and around the place and linked to liverpool. if that guy ends up at manu i will be angry, but not surprised after recent comments made by liverpool fans about torres being the next goal scoring hero since fowler.

to skip past owen like that is disrespectful.fowler was never an international name, or even and england regular.

at no point in fowlers career was he ever close to being european footballer of the year.

at no point was fowler my hero, that guy always ran out of goals when we needed them.if you needed somebody to score six against some nobody team then fowler was your man,but come the the end of the season when you needed just a few goals to push for the title, he was always missing chances.

obviously my obseveration and memory of fowler will be different from most, but hey its all about opinions.

for liverpool to produce a player that become european player of the year, and not have him around the place is just a crime.

i blame one person for this and its not owen.

just like rush was allowed to leave for a while to go to juventus, i have no problem owen going to madrid.

those liverpool fans who booed owen when he came back should sectioned.

   

I don't know what ya laughing at really...

That posts not even funny, its just a damn right disgrace.

He should be banned for that. Just like Welsh Wizzard should for the he always spout. Some people just need a punch.

Seriously.

Smeg what the feck are you on about you titttttttt!!

I should be banned for saying what i believe ?

"Transfer rumours aside" If i have something to say i'll say it, Like every other person on this site has there say. It is a Liverpool fans forum or am i mistaken, A place to have an "opinion"

Believe me i want Rafa to become one of our greatest managers and lead us to a premiership title if not this season then next. But i just get the feeling this is not going to happen under him.

Come Christmas we will see where we are, until then chill !!!

[welsh wizzard]

my liverpool hero is playing for another club.

liverpool don't have many true heroes or legends playing for them.

you look at manu and there are loads all over the place, the same for arsenholes and chelsea.

yet i've got to see my hero playing for a 2 bob club like newcastle.

i'll get off rafas back if owen comes back.

i don't care if owen is so injured he could not play for for us again, i just want him back and around the place and linked to liverpool. if that guy ends up at manu i will be angry, but not surprised after recent comments made by liverpool fans about torres being the next goal scoring hero since fowler.

to skip past owen like that is disrespectful.fowler was never an international name, or even and england regular.

at no point in fowlers career was he ever close to being european footballer of the year.

at no point was fowler my hero, that guy always ran out of goals when we needed them.if you needed somebody to score six against some nobody team then fowler was your man,but come the the end of the season when you needed just a few goals to push for the title, he was always missing chances.

obviously my obseveration and memory of fowler will be different from most, but hey its all about opinions.

for liverpool to produce a player that become european player of the year, and not have him around the place is just a crime.

i blame one person for this and its not owen.

just like rush was allowed to leave for a while to go to juventus, i have no problem owen going to madrid.

those liverpool fans who booed owen when he came back should sectioned.

   

I don't know what ya laughing at really...

That posts not even funny, its just a damn right disgrace.

He should be banned for that. Just like Welsh Wizzard should for the he always spout. Some people just need a punch.

Seriously.

Smeg what the feck are you on about you titttttttt!!

I should be banned for saying what i believe ?

"Transfer rumours aside" If i have something to say i'll say it, Like every other person on this site has there say. It is a Liverpool fans forum or am i mistaken, A place to have an "opinion"

Believe me i want Rafa to become one of our greatest managers and lead us to a premiership title if not this season then next. But i just get the feeling this is not going to happen under him.

Come Christmas we will see where we are, until then chill !!!

PS

Please don't punch me !!

Otherwise i'll get Uncle Albert to ban your hairy of here   

[redtrader74]

Zarababe mate!

On sunday - I saw for the first time my manager Rafael Benitez look deflated, worn, angry and frustrated - for the first time I worried about what I saw - a man who may contemplate walking away because we just don't get it!

Zonal marking was the brow beating obsession of the media than that debate died, when the so-called english way of doing things was proved negligible - winning the CL seemsto have lost its importance yet not winning it ultimately cost Mourihnio his job (diffrence with chairman etc spurred on by this failure).

The other day I read Stand Collymore declare that perhaps Rafa has no experience of managing in a competitive league like ours   Unfuc'kin believable.

First of all Stan Collymore shouldn't talk about anything since he wasn't professional enough to attend to the training ground when he played for Oviedo. I cannot imagine anybody less professional than him.

Second, it's not the first time we have  a bad patch, and it's not the first time we try to see much in the manager's body language. Angry? probably, but I don't think he's too frustrated.

Note that, the environment in which he's working is 1000 times better than in Spain. What it really makes your head in when you're a manager, is that the board tells you what to do. In his country, if he was a coach in Real Madrid, the board would tell him to play Torres (Raul) or to stop rotation. That's the kind of thing that makes a manager wanting to leave, not a couple of media opinions, which, btw, are far less insulting than the Spanish counterparts.

Even the shy boos that can hear in Anfield won't change his mind, when in Mestalla he had to hear "OUT!!! OUT!!"" and not 1000 but 34000 spanish twáts whistling (yes the same crowd that now misses him did that, they do that always)

So just for you being calm, Rafa will only leave if the board sack him, no matter what Hansen, Collymore, and 299  pundit say about his methods. As long as the board respect his work, he'll be ok and all the press will be like water off a duck's back.

There are plenty of over the hill, out of the game for years, thick as shit ex-footballers to quote, but to bring up a Collymore one is scraping the bottom of the barrel, i don't think i need to go into what a waste of space he was/is the women beating, insecure dogging streak of Piss.

[Homebooby]

On sunday - I saw for the first time my manager Rafael Benitez look deflated, worn, angry and frustrated - for the first time I worried about what I saw - a man who may contemplate walking away because we just don't get it!

I think that this is a massive misinterpretation of any manager of Rafas quality. I personally would look at it differently that it could be a turning point. Until now he has always been cool, calm and collected, it's always about choosing your battles carefully and I really think that this is what he has been doing until now.

The contrast of the relaxed Rafa to the one about to get medieval on someones may be exactly what is needed. There's been a definite change in his style this season and a little more passion is being shown and I think he means business. Either way, I am pretty sure that he is qualified enough to get what he needs out of the squad, otherwise he'd be on here asking for advice.

Season after season our expectations seem to get more and more out of control and we forget where we were 3 years ago and where we've been since. I remember having arguments with mates stating that we were no longer a big club and the like, that was the perception. We've won the champions league and hit the final again, in both cases people have called us fortunate  and the benchmark of the premiership has been pointed to where we have been sadly lacking. At the start of the season we would have settled with 6 points off the top this far in (it has been worse) and to be perfeclty honest, if it stays that way till the end of the season, we've made massive progress.

Get behind them all and enjoy it.....it's just a game  (runs for cover)

[zarababe]

Zarababe mate!

On sunday - I saw for the first time my manager Rafael Benitez look deflated, worn, angry and frustrated - for the first time I worried about what I saw - a man who may contemplate walking away because we just don't get it!

Zonal marking was the brow beating obsession of the media than that debate died, when the so-called english way of doing things was proved negligible - winning the CL seemsto have lost its importance yet not winning it ultimately cost Mourihnio his job (diffrence with chairman etc spurred on by this failure).

The other day I read Stand Collymore declare that perhaps Rafa has no experience of managing in a competitive league like ours   Unfuc'kin believable.

First of all Stan Collymore shouldn't talk about anything since he wasn't professional enough to attend to the training ground when he played for Oviedo. I cannot imagine anybody less professional than him.

Second, it's not the first time we have  a bad patch, and it's not the first time we try to see much in the manager's body language. Angry? probably, but I don't think he's too frustrated.

Note that, the environment in which he's working is 1000 times better than in Spain. What it really makes your head in when you're a manager, is that the board tells you what to do. In his country, if he was a coach in Real Madrid, the board would tell him to play Torres (Raul) or to stop rotation. That's the kind of thing that makes a manager wanting to leave, not a couple of media opinions, which, btw, are far less insulting than the Spanish counterparts.

Even the shy boos that can hear in Anfield won't change his mind, when in Mestalla he had to hear "OUT!!! OUT!!"" and not 1000 but 34000 spanish twáts whistling (yes the same crowd that now misses him did that, they do that always)

So just for you being calm, Rafa will only leave if the board sack him, no matter what Hansen, Collymore, and 299  pundit say about his methods. As long as the board respect his work, he'll be ok and all the press will be like water off a duck's back.

Hey Sabre 'Amigo'

That's a reassuring response thanks - I felt really worried and his expression has stuck with me since - am I being emotional - I blood.y well am becasue I belive that with him at the helm we will nail the premiership sooner, than ever.

This man knows enough to lift us to that next level and I for one have faith that the right man is in charge - so excuse my observations - but I don't want him to be hounded out by people who don't understand what he is trying to do - I understand peoples frustrations but I think perspective is needed and so is patience !

[Ciggy]

:laugh:   

I don't know what ya laughing at really...

That posts not even funny, its just a damn right disgrace.

He should be banned for that. Just like Welsh Wizzard should for the he always spout. Some people just need a punch.

Seriously.[/quote]
Knew it wouldnt take long for you to start again Stu, I was laughing at the fuckin pathetic post but once again, you have to be a funny @rse.

And asking for someone to be banned is a bit rich coming from someone who has been banned umpteen times and is now masquerading under another users ID isnt it?

Even though he should be banned because he is obviously a WUM.

[redtrader74]

my liverpool hero is playing for another club.

liverpool don't have many true heroes or legends playing for them.

you look at manu and there are loads all over the place, the same for arsenholes and chelsea.

yet i've got to see my hero playing for a 2 bob club like newcastle.

i'll get off rafas back if owen comes back.

i don't care if owen is so injured he could not play for for us again, i just want him back and around the place and linked to liverpool. if that guy ends up at manu i will be angry, but not surprised after recent comments made by liverpool fans about torres being the next goal scoring hero since fowler.

to skip past owen like that is disrespectful.fowler was never an international name, or even and england regular.

at no point in fowlers career was he ever close to being european footballer of the year.

at no point was fowler my hero, that guy always ran out of goals when we needed them.if you needed somebody to score six against some nobody team then fowler was your man,but come the the end of the season when you needed just a few goals to push for the title, he was always missing chances.

obviously my obseveration and memory of fowler will be different from most, but hey its all about opinions.

for liverpool to produce a player that become european player of the year, and not have him around the place is just a crime.

i blame one person for this and its not owen.

just like rush was allowed to leave for a while to go to juventus, i have no problem owen going to madrid.

those liverpool fans who booed owen when he came back should sectioned.

And there it is - the worst post ever on any forum anywhere.

Well done, my friend, you should be proud...

You thick, thick b*stard.

Spot on Lando, but you better watch out he might come round and tear your yellow pages in half.   

[redtrader74]

Stats can be made to mean pretty much anything you want.

For example where he says "In the 2006/07 season, Sir Alex Ferguson used a total of 23 players en route to the title. At Anfield, Benitez used six more.

Significantly, five of those selected by Benitez only featured in Liverpool's last three games of the season when the focus had shifted from domestic to continental pursuits with key first team players making way for youngsters as the Champions League final loomed"

What it does not say is how these extra players where used.  Did Fergusson use 23 different players but never changed more than 2 between 2 games or did he make 4 or 5 changes to his team.

I believe rotatation is the right way, but it has to be the right rotation..

True enough.

If I have some time later I might just have a look at how Man U, Arsenal and Chelsea approach cup competitions.  Clearly, Benitez likes to field significantly different teams in the cups than he does in the league and perhaps that leads to continuity problems when the fixtures come thick and fast in more than one competition.  Do Ferguson, Wenger and Mourinho/Grant maintain more continuity across competitions?  I'll let you know (unless someone beats me to it!    ).

You can try Bob, but imho i don't think it really serves a purpose to compare the other top four sides, although we all do it. Success can be achieved in many ways, Chelseas playing system was different to Manu, us and Asnl, as was their playing style, the amount each team spent, the time each manager has been at their clubs, the amount of rotation has been similar between Manu, Chelsea and us ( but that doesn't matter i hear).

The convaluted point being that there is more that one way to skin a cat, and all these managers have had success employing their individual methods, regardless of what each other does.

[bigmick]

It's an interesting one this "the criticism of Rafa has to stop". Some of the criticism is over the top and premature for sure, but it has to stop?

There have been many people on the boards willing to dismiss the various ex-players, press preople, media and pundits who have waded into Rafa and fair play to them for that. Many would have you believe our dip in form is nothing to do with rotation, not the managers fault, nothing to do with members of the coaching staff leaving etc etc.

Usually this group of people are more of the opinion that it's the bloke who pulls on the shirt and crosses the white line who is to blame more than the manager. The bloke who picks up more in a week than most of us earn in a year who should be accountable, and fair enough. Sometimes this group of people also believe that perhaps nobody is much to blame it's just a blip, or that injuries are the reason for our downturn in form and once players come back we'll get back to our very best. All this is absolutely fair enough, as is the listing of our achievements under Rafa, and pointing out that he has built a top-class squad.

On the other hand of course there are those that think that rotation on the level which we employ it is detrimental to the success of the team, particularly in the League. Sometimes they also point to the perception that Rafa isn't a good "man manager" or that he appears aloof from the players.

So who's right? Well time will tell, but here's a thought.

If the team doesn't achieve a position/points total/results etc which is roughly equal to the potential sum of its parts what do you do. It seems to me you have three scenarios, if for instance we were to finish third and fifteen points off the top of the league.

1. You accept it as "one of those things", come to the conclusion that the team is only currently that good, the "table doesn't lie" etc etc. Perhaps you reason that the team will gel better with another season under their belts and show some patience. Ferguson, as the "don't criticise Rafa" camp have pointed out took seven years to deliver the ittle to Old Trafford, Rafa has only (or will only have had) four. That said, the team isn't getting any younger, Wenger and Mourinho didn't take quite so long, and would such a result represent enough progress to keep people happy?

2. As the "stop criticising Rafa" camp tell us, it's the players. If we underachieve by common concensus, then perhaps some of the players need shipping out. Perhaps you blame it on the plyers, in which case you've got change the players. This of course is assuming that as they have failed to be motivated sufficiently during the course of a whole season, it is unlikely the same management style is going to propel them to greater hieghts the following season. Failing that you accept that they simply aren't good enough, and go and buy some more that are.

3. You come to the conclusion that the manager isn't extracting the most out of the players which are available to him. Whether it's rotation, aloofness or whatever theory you have, you change the manager.

That seems to me to the options if we were to underachieve. You do nothing, change the players or change the manager.

[Leonmc0708]

Leon
You keep missing the point about rotation.

I can assure you that I dont, to re-iterate I do not think that changing the team every week is the way to get results.

However I dont agree that "Rafas stubborn rotation policy" is the only reason why our form has dipped (or rather hit the fan) over the last five games.

I have stated many times that the spine of the team should be the same EVERY week barring injuries and knocks.

For starters it does not stop injuries and these are going to happen, like it or not

Sorry mate but I cant have that. IT does not stop all injuries but it will prevent some. Both fatigue and muslce strain injuries AND those from bad tackles. If you play a player in every game over the space of the season and they miss four games through injuries as sure as eggs is eggs then if they only played half the games they would most likely get half the injuries and miss two. Broken legs and the like aside.

For instance if Carragher was rested in the sunderland game, he would not have punctured his lung and broken a rib.

It does not produce fitter players but it will give the opportunity to make sure recovering players are properly fit before coming back, assuming the replacement needs replacing.

Not sure about hte last bit of this sentence, but it will mean that fitness can be maintained over a prolonged period of time, ie freshness.

The aspect of rotation which I hate is ther mental attitude it promotes. By its very nature it will not produce a winning attitude if changes are made for changes sake. By all means bring in a replacement in cases of injury or loss of form but other than those reasons then leave well alone. If a team has gone out and done well there can be no justification to change that order. What message does a change send to the players ?

That is of course assuming that all players respond to the same things.

As a manager, I know that my staff almost all are different in what they respond to. Some soar when told they are my number one, some respond well to being made to come up with answers them selves by being cajouled, some only respond to being bolloc.ked and some like a bit of everything.

Assuming just cus all the people Benitez manages respond best to the carrot (and thus not the stick or somewhere in between) cus they are all footballers is a ridiculous notion.

I'm upset that the speed Raffa shows to rotate players for "anticipated" tiredness is missing when a substitution is clearly called for during a game.

This is for me one of the reasons for our form more so than rotation. and I think its linked also to everyone elses other "bee in the bonnet" that is Pako.

I think that maybe Benitez needs a right hand man more at pitch side than on the training ground, and not to kiss the ickle cuts that little stevie weevie gets, but to bounce ideas off.

I saw Pako as more tactical than lots on here have given him credit for, and whilst I dont support to the theory that Valencias best ever assistnt and not best manager are sorely missed at the MAstella, I think Rafa's sounding board is missing a little. The suggestion of this, the disagreement to bringing a stiker on to play o nthe wong etc.

Players are given far too long on the pitch when it is clear to everyone there that they are having "one of those days". Leaving Subs till the last 10 minutes is pointless when the team have been hampered by a donkey for the previous 80.

Again, see above. I think Rafa's delayed the decisions cus he didnt have a second opinion.

He used to ALWAYS bring subs on at 55mins in games, its more like 75 the last few weeks from what I recall.

I honestly like Raffa and I can see no logical replacement for him. It is purely this aspect of his coaching I cannot accept.

I like Rafa meself, as you can tell, but I dont blindly stick by him. I just can stand by and watch whilst people from all over the globe demand success on an internet forum from a man who has made big strides with this club, and despite what some say regarding him getting on the right bus, he has brought about four of the greatest games I have ever been to in the last three years. I wont forget that too soon, and when it gets a bit sticky for him, I am in his corner.

[Sabre]

You make a fair point Bigmick. The criticism must not stop. I'd say that what has to stop is the kind of criticism that comes from Collymore, or the ones saying Rafa is losing the plot or isn't able to perform in the english game. That is, overreaction has to stop, criticism has not, would be my position about that.

About the scenario/thought you describe, If we underachieve at the end of the season, then it will mean we have not one but several bad moments alongside the season. And I won't say it's because we don't have a good squad.

I'll also think that it will be Rafa's fault if at the end of the season some of the new guys prove to be uneffective, he was the one who brought them (Babel, Torres, Benayoun).

If we underachieve, option a) do nothing is not acceptable.

Change players? yes, but not key players. I'd do a Barcelona, yesteryear they won nothing, and instead of selling Etoo they have brought Henry without selling. INstead of selling a problematic Ronaldinho, they kept him and brought a Defensive midfielder. I'd only sack those players that have proven to be not good enough for this squad.

Change the manager? I wouldn't. Would I do that every season? No, if the next season was not good enough aswell then I'd think this club might need to bring some fresh air and try something different.

But IMHO, all that is a big if, I don't think we'll be 15 points away the title.

[Scottbot]

'Pro-Rotationists'
'anti-rotationists'
the 'stop criticising Rafa camp'
the 'happy clappy brigade'

It used to be a football forum but it's starting to feel like the Houses of Parliament in here. Life would be a simpler if we just won every week.

[Leonmc0708]

'Pro-Rotationists'
'anti-rotationists'
the 'stop criticising Rafa camp'
the 'happy clappy brigade'

It used to be a football forum but it's starting to feel like the Houses of Parliament in here. Life would be a simpler if we just won every week.

Order !! order !!

[Leonmc0708]

It's an interesting one this "the criticism of Rafa has to stop". Some of the criticism is over the top and premature for sure, but it has to stop?

There have been many people on the boards willing to dismiss the various ex-players, press preople, media and pundits who have waded into Rafa and fair play to them for that. Many would have you believe our dip in form is nothing to do with rotation, not the managers fault, nothing to do with members of the coaching staff leaving etc etc.

Usually this group of people are more of the opinion that it's the bloke who pulls on the shirt and crosses the white line who is to blame more than the manager. The bloke who picks up more in a week than most of us earn in a year who should be accountable, and fair enough. Sometimes this group of people also believe that perhaps nobody is much to blame it's just a blip, or that injuries are the reason for our downturn in form and once players come back we'll get back to our very best. All this is absolutely fair enough, as is the listing of our achievements under Rafa, and pointing out that he has built a top-class squad.

On the other hand of course there are those that think that rotation on the level which we employ it is detrimental to the success of the team, particularly in the League. Sometimes they also point to the perception that Rafa isn't a good "man manager" or that he appears aloof from the players.

So who's right? Well time will tell, but here's a thought.

If the team doesn't achieve a position/points total/results etc which is roughly equal to the potential sum of its parts what do you do. It seems to me you have three scenarios, if for instance we were to finish third and fifteen points off the top of the league.

1. You accept it as "one of those things", come to the conclusion that the team is only currently that good, the "table doesn't lie" etc etc. Perhaps you reason that the team will gel better with another season under their belts and show some patience. Ferguson, as the "don't criticise Rafa" camp have pointed out took seven years to deliver the ittle to Old Trafford, Rafa has only (or will only have had) four. That said, the team isn't getting any younger, Wenger and Mourinho didn't take quite so long, and would such a result represent enough progress to keep people happy?

2. As the "stop criticising Rafa" camp tell us, it's the players. If we underachieve by common concensus, then perhaps some of the players need shipping out. Perhaps you blame it on the plyers, in which case you've got change the players. This of course is assuming that as they have failed to be motivated sufficiently during the course of a whole season, it is unlikely the same management style is going to propel them to greater hieghts the following season. Failing that you accept that they simply aren't good enough, and go and buy some more that are.

3. You come to the conclusion that the manager isn't extracting the most out of the players which are available to him. Whether it's rotation, aloofness or whatever theory you have, you change the manager.

That seems to me to the options if we were to underachieve. You do nothing, change the players or change the manager.

Its sad you live down under mate, would love to have a pint or ten with you over these sometime mate.

For me, Its No. 1. I think that next season is the clincher, and I also think he might just have one in the bag before the nas well.