Liverpool FC Forum

[tubby]

BIG ERROR IN THAT REPORT

we aint 4 points off first place

we are 6

and after 8 games that is bad

Arsenals run will not continue mate.

You cannot make such speculations. Its not like they havent done it before.

And its been done in more recent times by the likes of Chelsea and Utd.

Its not that I dont have faith in the team but confidence just seems to be lacking. Whether that is down to just a run of the mill bad patch or other internal factors such as Paco leaving who knows but we are in a frail state right now and need to bounce back sharpish.

Deep down I dont think anyone wants to see Rafa go. The preassure was always going to be that little but harder this year given that Rafa had more financial muscle. With the exception of Torres and Mascherano I still dont know if the recent signings he made are worthy of a championship winning team and further more I think we still need to buy 1 or 2 more. Namley a CB and a new striker as I think Peter Crouch has come to the end of his Liverpool chapter.

[Leonmc0708]

BIG ERROR IN THAT REPORT

we aint 4 points off first place

we are 6

and after 8 games that is bad

Arsenals run will not continue mate.

You cannot make such speculations. Its not like they havent done it before.

And its been done in more recent times by the likes of Chelsea and Utd.

Its not that I dont have faith in the team but confidence just seems to be lacking. Whether that is down to just a run of the mill bad patch or other internal factors such as Paco leaving who knows but we are in a frail state right now and need to bounce back sharpish.

Deep down I dont think anyone wants to see Rafa go. The preassure was always going to be that little but harder this year given that Rafa had more financial muscle. With the exception of Torres and Mascherano I still dont know if the recent signings he made are worthy of a championship winning team and further more I think we still need to buy 1 or 2 more. Namley a CB and a new striker as I think Peter Crouch has come to the end of his Liverpool chapter.

They will not continue that run much longer mate, they are no where near the side of the invincibles.

[112-1077774096]

BIG ERROR IN THAT REPORT

we aint 4 points off first place

we are 6

and after 8 games that is bad

Arsenals run will not continue mate.

You cannot make such speculations. Its not like they havent done it before.

And its been done in more recent times by the likes of Chelsea and Utd.

Its not that I dont have faith in the team but confidence just seems to be lacking. Whether that is down to just a run of the mill bad patch or other internal factors such as Paco leaving who knows but we are in a frail state right now and need to bounce back sharpish.

Deep down I dont think anyone wants to see Rafa go. The preassure was always going to be that little but harder this year given that Rafa had more financial muscle. With the exception of Torres and Mascherano I still dont know if the recent signings he made are worthy of a championship winning team and further more I think we still need to buy 1 or 2 more. Namley a CB and a new striker as I think Peter Crouch has come to the end of his Liverpool chapter.

They will not continue that run much longer mate, they are no where near the side of the invincibles.

mate they went a full season unbeaten, i know that history now but it shows it can be done, what if the keep scraping wins during their slump. if they beat us mate they will have 9 points on us and we are still in october

[account deleted by request]

If I took a harsh look at the team Rafa has built, I would say that we are short of a Centre Back possibly 2 by next summer. A decent winger unless Kewell can solve the problem, and at least two strikers one creative striker and one as a decent replacement for Torres when he's tired,injured or just rotated, maybe Babel? If I was really harsh we could do with a top class full back as well.

I think we have 2 great Centrebacks in Carra and Agger but I think we are all starting to see that time is begining to catch up with Hyypia.  On the wings we have no one who can claim to be top class or an automatic first teamer, even Pennant now seems unable to quite match up to those expectations. Kewell and Gerrard might be one answer, but that would lead to further questions about fitness best position etc. Up front we have Torres and............. ? I can't say any of them have filled me with confidence that they will grasp the opportunity and build a great partnership with Torres.

I think there is still some major work to be done by Rafa on building his team, but I also think we have enough to win the league if our best players avoid any more injuries and start to perform to their level. We have a great goalkeeper and defence when they are all available, a great central midfield with wide players good enough to do a job when called upon, and Torres up front.

Whether thats enough to take down the big sides I am not sure but maybe .... just maybe it is.

[welsh wizzard]

We need to strengthen the first team. Then play the players we've bought to do this.

Simple.

We've arguabley strengthed the first team by about four or five players in four years, which isn't the best record in all reality.

I agree with you 100% there that is the problem!!

Rafa had his bigest transfer chest to spend and he brought in 1 world class player in Torres, not good enough. We needed 2 class wingers and cover at the back for Carra and Aggar, As for another striker to play with Torres he failed there, he "Rafa" knew in the summer That Crouch wasn't part of his plans, so what the feck is he doing here now, Rafa should ave got rid in the summer and brought in a player who would ave been used. We would ave got prob 12m for Crouch then, now its more like 8m as he is not getting games. Good Managment!!

We were all expecting a few big names coming in the summer, but it didn't happen, Wingers crying out for class wingers, Still none to be seen.

So Yes we are still i would say 3 world class players short of a title winning side. Maybe we might see these players come in next season then we can go for it...According to reports Rafa still has 20m burning a hole in his pocket add with that 12m for crouch we could have had 32m to bring these players in, but no never happened but we are looking to add in jan, what fecking good is adding in Jan, players will be harder to get then for a start...We should have done this in the summer!!

[66-1112520797]

This is all very speculative, I

Feck me I think I've won. I think I've eventually bored the poor fecker into submission    Probably what's happened is that he's dropped off mid type and his hooter hit the send button as he made himself comfy on the keyboard   

EDIT: Sheesh he's woken up and changed it. Thought I had him there 

[Judge]

If I took a harsh look at the team Rafa has built, I would say that we are short of a Centre Back possibly 2 by next summer. A decent winger unless Kewell can solve the problem, and at least two strikers one creative striker and one as a decent replacement for Torres when he's tired,injured or just rotated, maybe Babel? If I was really harsh we could do with a top class full back as well.

I think we have 2 great Centrebacks in Carra and Agger but I think we are all starting to see that time is begining to catch up with Hyypia.  On the wings we have no one who can claim to be top class or an automatic first teamer, even Pennant now seems unable to quite match up to those expectations. Kewell and Gerrard might be one answer, but that would lead to further questions about fitness best position etc. Up front we have Torres and............. ? I can't say any of them have filled me with confidence that they will grasp the opportunity and build a great partnership with Torres.

I think there is still some major work to be done by Rafa on building his team, but I also think we have enough to win the league if our best players avoid any more injuries and start to perform to their level. We have a great goalkeeper and defence when they are all available, a great central midfield with wide players good enough to do a job when called upon, and Torres up front.

Whether thats enough to take down the big sides I am not sure but maybe .... just maybe it is.

KEWELL ?? your having a fucking laugh

[account deleted by request]

If I took a harsh look at the team Rafa has built, I would say that we are short of a Centre Back possibly 2 by next summer. A decent winger unless Kewell can solve the problem, and at least two strikers one creative striker and one as a decent replacement for Torres when he's tired,injured or just rotated, maybe Babel? If I was really harsh we could do with a top class full back as well.

I think we have 2 great Centrebacks in Carra and Agger but I think we are all starting to see that time is begining to catch up with Hyypia.  On the wings we have no one who can claim to be top class or an automatic first teamer, even Pennant now seems unable to quite match up to those expectations. Kewell and Gerrard might be one answer, but that would lead to further questions about fitness best position etc. Up front we have Torres and............. ? I can't say any of them have filled me with confidence that they will grasp the opportunity and build a great partnership with Torres.

I think there is still some major work to be done by Rafa on building his team, but I also think we have enough to win the league if our best players avoid any more injuries and start to perform to their level. We have a great goalkeeper and defence when they are all available, a great central midfield with wide players good enough to do a job when called upon, and Torres up front.

Whether thats enough to take down the big sides I am not sure but maybe .... just maybe it is.

KEWELL ?? your having a fucking laugh

He's back mate, or will be in a couple of weeks anyway. I still have hopes, maybe not expectations but hopes for our Harry.

[Judge]

unfortunately i am not a fan of kewells, but i want him to do well for the team though

[Leonmc0708]

BIG ERROR IN THAT REPORT

we aint 4 points off first place

we are 6

and after 8 games that is bad

Arsenals run will not continue mate.

You cannot make such speculations. Its not like they havent done it before.

And its been done in more recent times by the likes of Chelsea and Utd.

Its not that I dont have faith in the team but confidence just seems to be lacking. Whether that is down to just a run of the mill bad patch or other internal factors such as Paco leaving who knows but we are in a frail state right now and need to bounce back sharpish.

Deep down I dont think anyone wants to see Rafa go. The preassure was always going to be that little but harder this year given that Rafa had more financial muscle. With the exception of Torres and Mascherano I still dont know if the recent signings he made are worthy of a championship winning team and further more I think we still need to buy 1 or 2 more. Namley a CB and a new striker as I think Peter Crouch has come to the end of his Liverpool chapter.

They will not continue that run much longer mate, they are no where near the side of the invincibles.

mate they went a full season unbeaten, i know that history now but it shows it can be done, what if the keep scraping wins during their slump. if they beat us mate they will have 9 points on us and we are still in october

Thats a lot of ifs.

If we beat them and if they lose two games this month and if United lose two games and if Chaels dont win two games THEN we will be top.

[Sabre]

I guess my point is though that if you finish fifteen or twenty points behind then you are a mile away in my view. That would mean that the fairly significant changes to the squad we made this summer (and most would agree we improved it) would have brought us less than ten points closer. At that stage, what do you do? Go out and spend another wedge of cash in the belief that the management will eventually deliver the title going about things "their" way, or do you reconsider and maybe think about going for a more conventional method?

It's partly down to how and when that deficit is amounted. Should we finish between 10 and 15 points off the top at the end, having sustained the challenge until April 5th when we play Arsenal away (assume we are 5 points off the top for arguments sake) and lose - the deficit would then be 8 points, such a result may act as a catalyst that propels us to a 15 point deficit, it's easy for a beaten horse to haemorrhage points. For example, after the Arsenal match, should we then lose one of our away matches vs Fulham or Birmingham or draw twice, the deficit could be extended to 11 or 12 points. It could then easily go to 14 or 15 with a defeat at Spurs, by the Fulham/Birmingham games we would effectively be beaten horses. This assumes Arsenal win their games, which is definitely not a given, they play the Mancs away after us.

Anyway, the point is, to at least be in with a shout around about that time, be it 5,6 or 7 points off the top.

From then on, it's mainly a test of character and belief as we will have already demonstrated a significant improvement in our consistency.

A 5 point deficit can become a 15 point deficit in the space of 6 or 7 poor games.

If we demonstrate no improvement in our consistency, generally being adrift by 15-20 points all the way through until April, then I will be very disappointed.

I would still not advocate a change in manager however.

I'd broadly agree that it depends on the nature of how we ended up fifteen points behind, although I won't be a happy chappy if we're that far off the pace when it is all done and dusted in May.  Basically, I agree with Sabre's approach of evaluating everything at the end of the season and then passing judgment on Rafa and the team.  My gut tells me that if we are well off the pace in the league again come May, with no other silverware to soften the blow and with no glaring injury crisis to point to, than, yes, it will be time to sit down and ask the hard questions about Rafa's future at the club.  To play the "what if" game now, though, (what if we're 18 points back but have won the Carling Cup and the FA Cup? ) just doesn't feel right to me, as there are too many possible scenarios to weigh up and I just can't be a.rsed clarifying all of the permutations that would allow me to distinguish a good season from a disappointing one.

The "what if" game has been useful. It has broken the myth that some of the so called "Pros" brigade have unlimited blind faith: both you and LFC2007 have admitted that IF we seriously underachieve, hard questions will have to be asked.

[Judge]

see where we are at xmas, then perhaps constructive criticism is well worth a read

[redtrader74]

Right.  With apologies to Red Trader, who apparently likes to skin cats  in his spare time , I've had a look at the other Big Four line-ups so far this season.  Now, I won't bore you with the exact names and figures--you'll either have to trust me or go and look it all up yourself!    What I will offer is the general impression I got from taking this look.

First off, I looked at Man U and found that, like many predicted, Ferguson has not rotated his squad very much at all.  Despite the necessary changes due to injury, a settled side of Van Der Sar, Brown, Ferdinand, Vidic, Evra, Ronaldo, Carrick, Scholes, Giggs, Rooney and Tevez have played most matches in both the league and the Champions League.  Every so often he's used Nani to give Giggs a rest and he's opted to go 4-5-1 in several matches given that Rooney and Saha have both been out with injury, but, otherwise, it's a pretty settled side.  The only interesting caveat is that their current list of injured players is staggering (Van Der Sar, Neville, Hargreaves, Carrick, Fletcher, Park, Silvestre, Vidic, O'Shea, Saha), which might lead some to wonder whether resting some players might have kept them fitter.

Turning to Arsenal, we see a similar pattern.  Wenger has pretty much stuck with a settled side wherever fitness has allowed: Almunia, Sagna, Gallas (replaced by Senderos once injured), Toure, Clichy, Rosicky (replaced by Diaby once injured), Flamini, Fabregas, Hleb, Adebayour and RVP.  This has been the case in both the Prem and the CL--a very few tactical/formation changes here and there (e.g. playing Eduardo and Walcott up top with RVP) but nothing anywhere near the scale that we see with Rafa.  The big exceptions are the second CL qualifier against Sparta Prague at Emirates (dead rubber) and the Carling Cup match against Newcastle (11 kids played).

Finally, when we look at Chelsea, we see a team that has chopped and changed a bit more, sometimes approaching Rafa-esque numbers like 4 or 5 changes from game to game.  They are a tough case, though, as there have been a lot of injuries to the established back four, which seems to have led Mourinho to experiment quite a bit (Alex v. Ben Haim v. Essien at CB, for instance).  In addition injuries to Lampard and Drogba have led to more experimentation in central midfield and up top (in terms of personnel and formation).  What can be said with certainty is that their line-ups for their CL matches do not differ appreciably from their premier league line-ups, unlike we see with Liverpool.

So, what conclusions might we draw from all of this?:

1) All of the Big Four share a penchant for rotating when it comes to the Carling Cup.  (Interestingly, where Arsenal and Man U opted to play virtually 11 reserve teamers, us and Chelsea played a team that blended est. stars with reserves)

2) All of the Big Four tend to play a fairly settled side in the Prem--Yes, even us (our changes from league match to league match are comparable to those made by our rivals)!

3) The big difference seems to be when going from the league to the Champions League.  Whereas the other members of the Big Four tend to select a comparable team to those selected in the Prem, Rafa prefers to ring the changes.

BUT!!!!

There is an important caveat to this: Man U and Chelsea did not have to play two qualifying matches in the Champions League.  That means that they've had fewer midweek disruptions during the start of the season and that they did not have to "switch gears" between competitions until they'd played six league games. 

So, let's leave them aside and compare our situation with Arsenal, who also had to qualify for the CL proper.  Like us with Toulouse, Arsenal had to travel away to Prague in the opening leg of the qualifier, having played only one Premier League match as warm-up.  Unlike us, however, Arsenal played the exact same line-up in Prague that they had fielded three days earlier at home to Fulham.  In case you were wondering, they won 2-1 against Fulham and 2-0 against Sparta Prague.  We, on the other hand, made six changes to the team that beat Villa when we took to the pitch in Toulouse (in the sweltering mid-afternoon French summer sun, it's worth adding).  It may also be worth pointing out that Arsenal did not have to face Chelsea four days later, although they did have to travel to Blackburn, who are no soft touch at home.  To complete the story, both ourselves and Arsenal rang the changes for the return ties of the CL qualifiers (we made 6, they made 5), correctly confident of getting a result at home. 

Moving into the group stages, we have mirrored the other Big Four teams by putting out stronger teams on the road (Porto) and weaker teams at home (Marseilles).  In fact, our team against Porto was arguably the strongest possible team we could play.  Against Marseilles, Rafa clearly banked on the fact that we were playing a struggling French outfit at home on a European night and that even a weakened team could turn them over.  If it's any consolation, Chelsea fielded a very strong team against Rosenberg at Stamford Bridge and still only managed a draw.  In contrast, the Mancs played Roma at home while Arsenal hosted Sevilla, two teams that I think even Rafa would field a very strong 11 against.

Okay...went on a bit of a ramble there but the overall picture is clear: we rotate more than our top competitors when it comes to the Champions League and that's the difference at the end of the day.  Whether you think that's responsible--in whole or in part--for our current dip in form I leave up to you, but that's been the situation so far this season.

I just knew that this would be a useful experiment

Unfortunatly though i could argue for the aunties, in respect that it doesn't evaluate who is being rotated, for example manu rotating Fletcher, or o'shea is not the same as us rotating Torres or Gerrard, if it were the case.

At least you've shown that so far we have been almost as consistent in the league, which is what most people were bleating about before the season started.

[Bad Bob]

Unfortunatly though i could argue for the aunties, in respect that it doesn't evaluate who is being rotated, for example manu rotating Fletcher, or o'shea is not the same as us rotating Torres or Gerrard, if it were the case.

If I understand your point, mate, it's a good one.  You seem to be suggesting the that quality of the squad player that Man U or Arsenal (perhaps not Chelsea, though) can call upon is well below the standard of the person they'd be replacing (Fletcher for Ronaldo?), hence the lack of rotation.  That about right?

To anticipate Big Mick's response and play devil's advocate for a minute, don't the results justify the strong first 11/weaker squad approach?  Man U won the title last year and went very close in the cup comps with this formula.  As for Arsenal, they are off to a flyer, perhaps primarily because they have played a largely settled side.  Indeed, on paper, they shouldn't be leading the league at the moment.  Just look at their preferred (at the moment) side:

                             Almunia

Sagna           Toure         Senderos           Clichy

Hleb              Flamini         Fabregas         Rosicky

                   Adebayour    Van Persie

Does that look like a Premiership winning side to you?  It doesn't to me but it can't be denied that they are playing out of their skins and have momentum on their side.  Perhaps they can thank a minimalist approach to rotation as a key to their success?

[redtrader74]

Unfortunatly though i could argue for the aunties, in respect that it doesn't evaluate who is being rotated, for example manu rotating Fletcher, or o'shea is not the same as us rotating Torres or Gerrard, if it were the case.

If I understand your point, mate, it's a good one.  You seem to be suggesting the that quality of the squad player that Man U or Arsenal (perhaps not Chelsea, though) can call upon is well below the standard of the person they'd be replacing (Fletcher for Ronaldo?), hence the lack of rotation.  That about right?

To anticipate Big Mick's response and play devil's advocate for a minute, don't the results justify the strong first 11/weaker squad approach?  Man U won the title last year and went very close in the cup comps with this formula.  As for Arsenal, they are off to a flyer, perhaps primarily because they have played a largely settled side.  Indeed, on paper, they shouldn't be leading the league at the moment.  Just look at their preferred (at the moment) side:

                             Almunia

Sagna           Toure         Senderos           Clichy

Hleb              Flamini         Fabregas         Rosicky

                   Adebayour    Van Persie

Does that look like a Premiership winning side to you?  It doesn't to me but it can't be denied that they are playing out of their skins and have momentum on their side.  Perhaps they can thank a minimalist approach to rotation as a key to their success?

I was also saying that when rotation numbers were comparable, it is important to know who is being rotated, we may rotate Torres, but do/would the others rotate Van Persie, Drogba, Ronaldo or some other no-mark instead. IE do we rotate our marquee players and they their run of the mill players.

No need for Big Mick....

Also with the Arsenal squad, i would agree it does not look like league winners, but in their case, it never does until they win it. Those players are perfect for their system and may not look so great when in another team...see Ashley Tweedy. IMO (i agree with Leon here), they will falter and once they lose a few will also lose confidence, and therefore will not sustain the challenge, i think that in the new year the top two will be us and the mancs. Time will tell.