Liverpool FC Forum

[112-1077774096]

i do not think we should be drawing comparisons with anyone or anything else, i have already said there is no point drawing comparisons with our results from previous seasons so it would be even more pointless to compare our situation with a situation form another club 20 odd years ago.

lets just look at our situation now, just because red nose got lucky and kept his job all those years ago has no link to rafa now.

the problem with rafa is his stubbornness, this is why it will never work with him, he is trying to continue with methods that do not work in the league so it does not matter if we give him one year or 10 years, the only way we will win the league under these methods is if the mancs, chelsea and arsenal go into a rapid decline and we stay at the same level, because we are not going to improve while rafa chops and changes, while he plays players out of position, while he overthinks things, and while he sets out with a negative stance.

we have some of the best players in europe but he doesn't have a clue how to get the best out of them in the league

[nobybob]

i do not think we should be drawing comparisons with anyone or anything else, i have already said there is no point drawing comparisons with our results from previous seasons so it would be even more pointless to compare our situation with a situation form another club 20 odd years ago.

lets just look at our situation now, just because red nose got lucky and kept his job all those years ago has no link to rafa now.

the problem with rafa is his stubbornness, this is why it will never work with him, he is trying to continue with methods that do not work in the league so it does not matter if we give him one year or 10 years, the only way we will win the league under these methods is if the mancs, chelsea and arsenal go into a rapid decline and we stay at the same level, because we are not going to improve while rafa chops and changes, while he plays players out of position, while he overthinks things, and while he sets out with a negative stance.

we have some of the best players in europe but he doesn't have a clue how to get the best out of them in the league

wrong it has a direct link fergie took a potential league winning team that finished only 9 points of Liverpool into one that finished 25 points behind the next season and then 31 points behind the season after. did that mean he would never win the league that he was incapable?? NO history has shown that.

So who is to say given all that ,and also that Rafa has won much more than fergie ever did when he first arrived. How can any of you say for sure Rafa wont win us the premier ---YOU CANT !!!
the premier is a learning curve and Rafa is learning .
HE now needs financial backing from the owners to buy world class players, he needs some of the players that are here to step up and fulfil the potential they undoubtedly have , he needs luck , and most importantly he needs time >

[112-1077774096]

i do not think we should be drawing comparisons with anyone or anything else, i have already said there is no point drawing comparisons with our results from previous seasons so it would be even more pointless to compare our situation with a situation form another club 20 odd years ago.

lets just look at our situation now, just because red nose got lucky and kept his job all those years ago has no link to rafa now.

the problem with rafa is his stubbornness, this is why it will never work with him, he is trying to continue with methods that do not work in the league so it does not matter if we give him one year or 10 years, the only way we will win the league under these methods is if the mancs, chelsea and arsenal go into a rapid decline and we stay at the same level, because we are not going to improve while rafa chops and changes, while he plays players out of position, while he overthinks things, and while he sets out with a negative stance.

we have some of the best players in europe but he doesn't have a clue how to get the best out of them in the league

wrong it has a direct link fergie took a potential league winning team that finished only 9 points of Liverpool into one that finished 25 points behind the next season and then 31 points behind the season after. did that mean he would never win the league that he was incapable?? NO history has shown that.

So who is to say given all that ,and also that Rafa has won much more than fergie ever did when he first arrived. How can any of you say for sure Rafa wont win us the premier ---YOU CANT !!!
the premier is a learning curve and Rafa is learning .
HE now needs financial backing from the owners to buy world class players, he needs some of the players that are here to step up and fulfil the potential they undoubtedly have , he needs luck , and most importantly he needs time >

wrong

what relevance can something that happened 20 years ago at a different club, under different circumstances, with different players etc have any bearing on what is happening at our club, if history repeated itself so easily then none of us would ever make mistakes.

seriously do you really think we can link the 2 thinks or are you just clutching at straws mate and looking for more excuses to keep rafa at the club/

my suggestion to you would be to put the club first and not rafa, if rafa had ever shown me any indication he had it in him to win the league then i would be prepared to give him more time, if he showed me he was willing to follow a winning formula without un needed changes then i would give him more time.

to me mate, rafa puts rafa first, not the team, not the club and certainly not the fans, if he did he would swallow his pride and try something that might actually work

[nobybob]

i do not think we should be drawing comparisons with anyone or anything else, i have already said there is no point drawing comparisons with our results from previous seasons so it would be even more pointless to compare our situation with a situation form another club 20 odd years ago.

lets just look at our situation now, just because red nose got lucky and kept his job all those years ago has no link to rafa now.

the problem with rafa is his stubbornness, this is why it will never work with him, he is trying to continue with methods that do not work in the league so it does not matter if we give him one year or 10 years, the only way we will win the league under these methods is if the mancs, chelsea and arsenal go into a rapid decline and we stay at the same level, because we are not going to improve while rafa chops and changes, while he plays players out of position, while he overthinks things, and while he sets out with a negative stance.

we have some of the best players in europe but he doesn't have a clue how to get the best out of them in the league

wrong it has a direct link fergie took a potential league winning team that finished only 9 points of Liverpool into one that finished 25 points behind the next season and then 31 points behind the season after. did that mean he would never win the league that he was incapable?? NO history has shown that.

So who is to say given all that ,and also that Rafa has won much more than fergie ever did when he first arrived. How can any of you say for sure Rafa wont win us the premier ---YOU CANT !!!
the premier is a learning curve and Rafa is learning .
HE now needs financial backing from the owners to buy world class players, he needs some of the players that are here to step up and fulfil the potential they undoubtedly have , he needs luck , and most importantly he needs time >

wrong

what relevance can something that happened 20 years ago at a different club, under different circumstances, with different players etc have any bearing on what is happening at our club, if history repeated itself so easily then none of us would ever make mistakes.

seriously do you really think we can link the 2 thinks or are you just clutching at straws mate and looking for more excuses to keep rafa at the club/

my suggestion to you would be to put the club first and not rafa, if rafa had ever shown me any indication he had it in him to win the league then i would be prepared to give him more time, if he showed me he was willing to follow a winning formula without un needed changes then i would give him more time.

to me mate, rafa puts rafa first, not the team, not the club and certainly not the fans, if he did he would swallow his pride and try something that might actually work

the parallel it has is that a manager (FERGIE) who was clearly doing things wrong and taking his side steadily down the table learnt from his mistakes he realised were he was going wrong and corrected.
I think Rafa's main mistake has been rotation but now the spine of the team stays pretty much the same , he is gradually correcting his mistakes. Sure he still tinkers to a certain degree but not to the point he was earlier in the season.
Then we come to the kuyt debate,  there is little debate that the man is a much better player than he has shown of late and a lack of confidence is affecting his performance on the pitch. who is to say what Rafa is seeing on the training ground Kuyt may be doing really well there. Although i personally think he will never be the star this club needs and neither will crouch, and i think Rafa has probably come around to this view himself. he will I'm sure given the finances be looking to bring someone new in.

All these issues we can discuss and argue about , but to just come out and say rafa will never get us the premier full stop is just wrong.

[account deleted by request]

I think Rafa's main mistake has been rotation but now the spine of the team stays pretty much the same , he is gradually correcting his mistakes. Sure he still tinkers to a certain degree but not to the point he was earlier in the season.

Thats rubbish mate, he rotates just as much now as he ever has.

[Yosa]

I wouldn't doubt Rafa's commitment to the club, his desire to win the Premiership, or his determination to give of his best.

However, he rotates unecessarily, continually selects out of form players over stronger ones and, so, despite his genuine approach, I just don't think he's good enough.

As far as the squad is concerned, he hasn't had all the money in the world, but he has had plenty, and some of the quality of his choices has been poor to say the least. Admittedly we are still weak in areas, and the side may not be quite ready to fully challenge the other three, but I don't believe Rafa can justify being 17 points off the pace with the resources he has.

I would love the guy to turn everything around, and make us realistic challengers for the title in the next, and future seasons. I don't think he will though.

[burjennio]

god_bless_john_houlding
LFC Advanced Member




Group: LFC Members
Posts: 701
Joined: Mar. 2007  Posted: Feb. 04 2008,20:35 




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote (ruskiy playmaker @ Feb. 04 2008,18:13)
Quote (god_bless_john_houlding @ Feb. 04 2008,17:19)
Well correct me if I'm wrong pal but weren't we 3-0 down to Milan under Benitez? Weren't we 4 minutes from going out in the European Cup in 05 against Olympiakos because we needed to score THREE goals? Again we had to win our remaining THREE games this season but yet this is the european genius eh?

Come on gbjh you're just making a fool of yourself.  That AC MILAN side was one of the best football teams in the last 15 or 20 years, it's ridiculous to compare them with the likes of PSG.  We had absolutely no right to win that game, the class of the squads was miles apart.  No other manager in the world would have won that game with our squad. 

There are very few managers in the world who are on the same level of genius as Rafael Benitez.     

Well this "genius" picked an unfit Harry Kewell, and it was down to his tactics we were 3-0 down at half time. He gets given credit for the Hamman sub, which I might add was forced upon him because of Finnan's injury because lets be honest you need to score 3 goals, one fella you wouldn't bring on is Hamman because he's hardly prolific.

Benitez' tactics again got us to within 4 mins of not qualifying from the group stage never mind going on to win it.

So don't say I'm making a fool of me because I'm not. Benitez didn't win us that European Cup, the fans in Istanbul, like myself and plenty of others, singing their hearts out and letting the players and staff know we were still there for them. The players wanted to give the fans something to be proud of and that's why they fought for it. Also if you watch the programmes and documentaries on the match, you'll see a certain Jamie Carragher be asked--"what did the manager say to you at half time?" to which Carra replied "he didn't say anything, he was just as disappointed as us."--great genius to gear the players up for the biggest half of their lives.

Genius nothing.

thank you GBJH for winning us the 2005 Champions League 


You should be sectioned, right next to Britney

[account deleted by request]

thank you GBJH for winning us the 2005 Champions League 


You should be sectioned, right next to Britney

I know its wrong to laugh but...............  

[ruskiy playmaker]

I think Rafa's main mistake has been rotation but now the spine of the team stays pretty much the same , he is gradually correcting his mistakes. Sure he still tinkers to a certain degree but not to the point he was earlier in the season.

Thats rubbish mate, he rotates just as much now as he ever has.

Well that's not entirely true, the spine of our team rarely gets rotated.

Reina
Carra,Hyppia
Masch,Gerrard,
Torres,

[puroresu]

I dont believe Rafa will ever get it right in the league regardless of how much he spends.  After 4 seasons he still makes the same mistakes time and time again.  We may well win cups but I dont believe we will ever really progress in the league championship with Rafa.  This year I believed he may of learned and may of adapted but no it hasnt happened.  Can be 2 or 3 more years it doesnt matter as nothing will change.

[account deleted by request]

I think Rafa's main mistake has been rotation but now the spine of the team stays pretty much the same , he is gradually correcting his mistakes. Sure he still tinkers to a certain degree but not to the point he was earlier in the season.

Thats rubbish mate, he rotates just as much now as he ever has.

Well that's not entirely true, the spine of our team rarely gets rotated.

Reina
Carra,Hyppia
Masch,Gerrard,
Torres,

Liverpool: Itandje ,Arbeloa ,Carragher ,Hyypia ,Riise ,Pennant ,Alonso ,Gerrard (Lucas ,73 ) ,Babel ,Crouch (Kuyt ,65 ) ,Torres (Aurelio ,73)
Subs not used: Martin,Kewell,

Liverpool: Reina ,Arbeloa (Skrtel ,70 ) ,Carragher ,Hyypia ,Aurelio ,Benayoun (Crouch ,80 ) ,Mascherano ,Gerrard ,Kewell (Babel ,74 ) ,Kuyt ,Torres
Subs not used: Itandje,Alonso,

Liverpool: Itandje ,Finnan ,Skrtel ,Hyypia (Carragher ,84 ) ,Riise ,Pennant ,Mascherano (Gerrard ,87 ) ,Lucas ,Benayoun (Kuyt ,72 ) ,Crouch ,Babel
Subs not used: Martin,Torres,

Liverpool: Reina ,Carragher ,Hyypia ,Skrtel ,Aurelio (Finnan ,46 ) ,Pennant ,Gerrard ,Mascherano ,Lucas (Benayoun ,61 ) ,Crouch (Kuyt ,83 ) ,Torres
Subs not used: Itandje,Babel,


Our last four games ..... and you were saying ?

Reina has played 2
Carra has played 3 but one was at full back
Hyypia all 4
Mascherano 3
Gerrard 3
Torres 3

Thats in addition to all the other changes 

Remembering also that his options to rotate have been limited by injuries to Alonso, Agger, and the attrocious form of Kuyt and Voronin.

He has shown no signs of restricting his rotation policy, and why should he, Rafa believes strongly in rotation. If you want Rafa as manager you have to accept rotation as part of the deal.The spine of the team was rarely rotated before, its just made more memorable by the fact we usually lose.

[metalhead]

True s@int, but one the games was the F.A cup, against Havant

Key players this season were hardly rotated when Benitez learned that he can't drop them after the portsmouth game. Only during F.A and carling cup games our key players were rested.

However, this complete rotating of the squad players is bollox.

[ruskiy playmaker]

True s@int, but one the games was the F.A cup, against Havant

Key players this season were hardly rotated when Benitez learned that he can't drop them after the portsmouth game. Only during F.A and carling cup games our key players were rested.

However, this complete rotating of the squad players is bollox.

Very true, but I think the reason he rotates the wide players so much is because there's not enough quality in those areas.  It may be Rafa's fault but I think that if he was allowed to buy Alves and Simao we would rarely see them get rotated.

[puroresu]

True s@int, but one the games was the F.A cup, against Havant

Key players this season were hardly rotated when Benitez learned that he can't drop them after the portsmouth game. Only during F.A and carling cup games our key players were rested.

However, this complete rotating of the squad players is bollox.

Very true, but I think the reason he rotates the wide players so much is because there's not enough quality in those areas.  It may be Rafa's fault but I think that if he was allowed to buy Alves and Simao we would rarely see them get rotated.

There is no maybe about it.  He persists with Harry Kewell even though Kewell has done nothing.  He paid to much for pennant and for that money could of found someone else.  He signs Babel for £12 mil and he doesnt know what to do with him. He gives him a go out on the left and then drops him. A few weeks later its Babel's time again.  He signed Leto who seems to have dropped from the face of the earth.  He signed Gonzales who was supposed to be the next big thing and within a year his sold.  He bought Yossi who has never been and will never be a true winger.  We have had problems in the wide positions for years and Rafa has not resolved these problems.

[account deleted by request]

2006/2007 appearances

Reina     51
Carra     51
agger    41
Alonso   51
Gerrard  51
KUYT    48
He didn't rotate the spine of the team very much before.