Liverpool FC Forum

[NANNY RED]

The thing which is becoming very apparent here is that the people who like Rafa judge him purely on his European successes and don't really care about the league whilst those who don't rate him as a manager rate him more on his performance in the league. I guess you al my now no which side of the fence I'm on, in fact I haven't even seen that fence in quite a while, it's way off in the distance  

I'll be the first to congratulate Rafa for our often miraculous success in Europe, we constantly play like underdogs but somehow we win, which is nice. My problem with the genius tag is that he is spectacularly unable to transfer this kind of performance into the premiership and that is why I still want rid of him, even after having beaten the mighty Sunderland at home 

Why do you seem to hate our manager so much ive never heard you say one good word about him.

Ok fans are split some think Raffas time is up and others believe he should stay, but even the ones who think Raffa hsa gone past his sell by date but there venom is not like yours against the man.

Wow can you please actually read my post?

If you actually READ my post, instead of jumping to conclusions, you will see that I congratulate him for our European success but no you will not hear me cheering him on for our domestic league success because he doesn't deserve it, he has failed us domestically in the league.

Im not having a go Heimdell but it just seems that a lot of your posts are negative ones concerning the manager we all know you want him out as soon as and it just seems that when anyone has a moan about him, your right in there slating him off.

So as you said it miraculaus that we win in Europe . Maybe its just down to Benitez and his Tactics or is it just flukey results that has got us to 2 finals in three years.

Cause they didnt look flukey to me, but thats my opinion

[god_bless_john_houlding]

Nanny I'm no fan of Benitez, but people banging on about his European success is starting to grate on me. Wow the fella can get the best out of us in Europe, but he has to realise there's more to football than the European Cup. Liverpool Football Club wants the league, Rafael Benitez doesn't. That's why there's so much hostility towards him.

Nobody is taking away the success he has had in Europe, but that's starting to wear thin, because of our desperation for the Premiership.

[redtrader74]

Rubbish, Rafa has said clearly at the start of the season that the League was the priority, why say that if it was not? To look foolish? I suppose he won the titles in Spain by accident, he was just trying to get a CL place, but somehow, by accident got lumbered with the Leagues.

He wanted to, and wants to win the League, why on earth wouldn't he? I cannot believe people actually convince themselves he only wants to play in Europe.

[god_bless_john_houlding]

Well if he wanted the league, why bring Torres, Gerrard and Carra off in a game right before a european game?
If he wanted the league, why does he still rotate when it's obvious it doesn't work?
If he wanted the league, why drop Torres for the Portsmouth game?
If he wanted the league, why are we 17 fu.cking points behind already?

[megabomberman]

People keep saying things like "if Rafa is a genius then why doesn't he win us the league with it?" and the simple answer is the team is not yet good enough...

It doesn't matter what kind of a genius you are, over 38 games the best team (if no injuries) or otherwise best squad (something rafa is trying to implement) will win the league.

I don't think any of us could say avram grant is the bees knees but chelsea seem to be doing grand without the much loved mourhinio, of course he is though, look at that absolutely awesome team and even more awesome squad, you could get 2 teams challening for the title out of that squad!! For god sake I'd be able to challenge for 4 trophies with that team, it picks itself! This is the same man, many people want as their saviour.... but look at mourinhio, he is a text book bully, he suceeds when the cards are in his hands, he's a fantastic motivator and can turn his team of superstars into champions... With Chelsea he was playing fantasy manager with his squad buying anyone he wanted it was simple and even then he had a disaster of a summer in the transfer market.. paying over the odds for Molouda, Sidwell, Ben Haim!! and Kalou, and don't forget he lost the season for chelsea the year before having no cover at centre back and people on here give out about Benitez record.. and he's working on a much tighter budget.

This Mourinho won titles in portugal for fun, its like winning the SPL as Celtic without Rangers about in Scotland not exactly amazing.

His Champions League triumph is however something I cannot take away from the man, it was an incredible achievement similar to our own Benitez.

Now look at Rafas 2 other "big league" titles (Spain Italy and England being the big ones) he did this at valencia, (a club in a position much like ourselves at the time) I think those 2 league titles were even more impressive than Jose's at Chelsea. Also Rafa has won a Uefa Cup, Champs League, Fa Cup and been to a Carling Cup and another CL final with liverpool. Please don't right off his achievements. We have been so prosperous under him.

Calling for Mourinho now is just lazy, it seems like the perfect fix, the logic "he's won it with chelsea, he'll win it with us" is misguided, the cards were in his favour then, and he still got outfoxed 3 times by benitez (2 champ league semis, and fa cup semi), lets at least try and stick together and let rafa see this true, or believe me Liverpool will barring a miracle turn into an irrelevant past club like nott forest, leeds etc etc... And none of us want that!

[NANNY RED]

Well if he wanted the league, why bring Torres, Gerrard and Carra off in a game right before a european game?
If he wanted the league, why does he still rotate when it's obvious it doesn't work?
If he wanted the league, why drop Torres for the Portsmouth game?
If he wanted the league, why are we 17 fu.cking points behind already?

John you cant tell me that Raffa is not interested in the league any manager worth his salt mate would wanna win the EPL .
No one has a go when the teams who are above us at the mo rotate there managers are tactical geniuses, But then also theve got 18-20 million pound players to rotate with

And as far as leaving out Torres for the Portsmouth game tell me truthfully would you have expected to beat them without him in the team because i know i did. Your relying on one player now to beat an  average side.

At the start of the season for a while anyway we were on fire even with the rotation malarky and you must admit John even you must have thought, Yes here we go it could be coming back to us . But as many posters have said on here something has dreadfully gone wrong and no i dont think its Raffa picking Kuyt, others have not been up to standard and i fail to put my finger on it.

[redtrader74]

Well if he wanted the league, why bring Torres, Gerrard and Carra off in a game right before a european game?
If he wanted the league, why does he still rotate when it's obvious it doesn't work?
If he wanted the league, why drop Torres for the Portsmouth game?
If he wanted the league, why are we 17 fu.cking points behind already?

.

We were 3-1 down, he couldn't see them making any more of a difference in the remaining 18 minutes, having not made a difference in the first 72. The importance of that particluar CL game was the difference between the Club earning an additional £10m or so, and i suppose at the time his job depended on it, oh how selfish of him.

Rotation has not worked or team formation has not worked? Many, me included, think rotation can, and does work, its the formations that have hurt us. You see in his experience his methods have worked, two league titles would point to that. Nobody can prove that an alternative method would have worked any better.

Torres was carrying a knock, well documented but also well ignored here. He kept him on the bench only to risk putting Torres on if the situation was dire, as it turned out.

We are 17 points behind because our team is weaker that our rivals simple as. The cr@p about the managers position and the uncertainty behind the scenes would also hinder the performances, again a simple and obvious conclusion.

I ASK YOU AGAIN DO YOU REALLY, NOW THINK HARD, REALLY THINK RAFA DOES NOT WANT TO WIN THE LEAGUE?

He doesn't want the kudos, and legendary status that would be bestowed on him? The recognition that he has yet again broken a financial duopoly? No ofcourse not, why would he indeed.

[god_bless_john_houlding]

Nanny the reason something went wrong is because the players are playing in the wrong tactics, that's gotta come from Benitez. Me brother on many occassions has asked whether the players train basic skills or do they just train how to run, and when you see how we play, it makes sense to think they do only run.

[NANNY RED]

Ok Agreed on some points John but you know aswell as i do Basic Skills, come on if a proffesinal football player does not hve the basic skills he shouldnt be on the park.

Ive been to Melwood John and have watched them train on many occasion and it mainly consists of like it was in the old days Five asides or three on three. Yes you have the fitness coaches and your dynamics what ever you wanna call them but dont you remember by just playin five asides Shanks declared us the fittest team in the league and we could run for England.

[ConnO'var]

Mate, in response to a few of your points, the alternate view is as follows:

Redtrader: "We were 3-1 down,he couldn't see them making any more of a difference in the remaining 18 minutes, having not made a difference in the first 72. The importance of that particluar CL game was the difference between the Club earning an additional £10m or so, and i suppose at the time his job depended on it, oh how selfish of him."

This sort of thinking is something I am very much against as it suggests a defeatist attitude and a lack of real heart. If we go 3 goals down after 45 mins, we should just pack it in as we hadn't been performing for the 1st 45?? Flawed approach. We have never and should never EVER give up on a game at any time. Fight to the end. Planting these notions into the players pscyche is simply not on. I agree that it was important for us to win that particular CL game due to the financial reasons..... so why not go all out to win it in the 1st half with a full strength squad and then rest the key players once the job had been done? Once again, a flawed approach as it belittles and (shows a distinct lack of understanding) and disrespects the smaller clubs.

Redtrader74: "Rotation has not worked or team formation has not worked? Many,me included, think rotation can, and does work, its the formations that have hurt us. You see in his experience his methods have worked, two league titles would point to that. Nobody can prove that an alternative method would have worked any better."

Lets agree to disagree on this one. After all theres already an entire thread discussing this ad nauseum. But I will say one thing.... (... sorry!) Nobody has won the league utilizing as much rotation as Rafa has. Proven in La liga but not here. After 4 years, it is time that we realise that. His experience may tell him otherwise, but the mark of a true great is the ability to adapt and adjust when things don't go to plan. And of course it HAS been proven that an alternate method would work better. Ask the champions of the league for the last 18 odd years and beyond.



Redtrader74: "Torres was carrying a knock @ well documented but also well ignored here. He kept him on the bench only to risk putting Torres on if the situation was dire, as it turned out."

Fair point. No arguements there.

Redtrader74" "We are 17 points behind because our team is weaker that our rivals simple as. The cr@p about the managers position and the uncertainty behind the scenes would also hinder the performances, again a simple and obvious conclusion."

Our team is weaker than the others? Yes.... but 17 points weaker? I don't believe so. Remember, the core of this squad made it to 2 CL finals and won one. Are you suggesting that we did it by sheer luck twice? Or that the teams in the CL are so much weaker than in the premiership? Or heaven forbid, that the CL is a mickey mouse trophy that can be won by anyone? That is after all the crux of the matter, is it not? In plenty of posts in this thread I've read many on here repeatedly state that this is one achievement that we should never belittle as it is (arguably) bigger than the league. (I don't subscribe to that by the way..... nothing even compares to the league title in my book).

This begs the question, If we're good enough to win the CL once and get to the final twice in the last 3 years (something our main rivals have failed to do), How can it be possible that we are 17 points worst off than the top 3 clubs? A paradox if I ever saw one.

So, regardless, if we are weaker than the rest.... remember who assembled the squad.  If we are strong enough to compete, then why aren't we challenging?..... knock on the manager's door and ask him.


Redtrader74: "I ASK YOU AGAIN DO YOU REALLY, NOW THINK HARD, REALLY THINK RAFA DOES NOT WANT TO WIN THE LEAGUE?

He doesn't want the kudos, and legendary status that would be bestowed on him? The recognition that he has yet again broken a financial duopoly? No ofcourse not, why would he indeed.."

In this, I completely agree with you..... no manager in his right mind would not want to win the league. Absolutely preposterous suggestion...

IMO, he's just going about it the wrong way.

[The Manhattan Project]

It'll be interesting to see what happens on various forums if Inter knock us out of the Champions League.

Then our season comes down to that "push for fourth" as usual.

The FA Cup I tend to put aside for now because I have a feeling that run will end once we are inevitably drawn against either Man U, Arsenal or Chelsea.

[god_bless_john_houlding]

Well if he wanted the league, why bring Torres, Gerrard and Carra off in a game right before a european game?
If he wanted the league, why does he still rotate when it's obvious it doesn't work?
If he wanted the league, why drop Torres for the Portsmouth game?
If he wanted the league, why are we 17 fu.cking points behind already?

.

We were 3-1 down, he couldn't see them making any more of a difference in the remaining 18 minutes, having not made a difference in the first 72. The importance of that particluar CL game was the difference between the Club earning an additional £10m or so, and i suppose at the time his job depended on it, oh how selfish of him.

Rotation has not worked or team formation has not worked? Many, me included, think rotation can, and does work, its the formations that have hurt us. You see in his experience his methods have worked, two league titles would point to that. Nobody can prove that an alternative method would have worked any better.

Torres was carrying a knock, well documented but also well ignored here. He kept him on the bench only to risk putting Torres on if the situation was dire, as it turned out.

We are 17 points behind because our team is weaker that our rivals simple as. The cr@p about the managers position and the uncertainty behind the scenes would also hinder the performances, again a simple and obvious conclusion.

I ASK YOU AGAIN DO YOU REALLY, NOW THINK HARD, REALLY THINK RAFA DOES NOT WANT TO WIN THE LEAGUE?

He doesn't want the kudos, and legendary status that would be bestowed on him? The recognition that he has yet again broken a financial duopoly? No ofcourse not, why would he indeed.

Well 3-1 down or not, it still proved he wasn't interested in trying to make a comeback because we had europe coming up next.

Rotation won him two league titles in spain, contrary to what you might think Liverpool play in England. And as far as I can remember dropping your best players and playing around with formations and different players every week hasn't won a league title in England. I may be wrong of course, but I doubt it.

Jamie Carragher has played over 500 games, do you think everyone of them he was 100% because I doubt it. Carrying a knock or not, that early in a season when you're STILL in a title chase, your best players must play.

We're 17 points behind because we drop points to sh!t sides like Birmingham and Wigan at home, and the reason we drop points is because this "tactical genius" can't work out a way to break sides down when they put 11 men behind the ball.

So I've thought long and hard, and I don't recall saying Benitez doesn't WANT the league, but it's not his number 1 priority, whatever you, he or anyone else would lead me to believe. His number 1 priority has been and always will be Europe, which will be proven in the Inter Milan game. Do you think he'll rest Gerrard or Torres for that game and make a strong push for 4th? I can't see it meself. I can however see him dropping Torres and/or Gerrard for the FA Cup tie against Barnsley in time for the Inter game.

[account deleted by request]

The way I see it (and remember I am very confused   ) if we had been knocked out of all three cups early, but top of the league, no one would be calling for Rafa's head and we would all be as happy as pigs in muck. This is the point that some of the pro - Rafa's don't seem to want to take on board. The team is good enough to be much much closer to the top. All the blame can't be laid at the owners door because we were playing poorly in games quite early in the season. In the league Rafa is just not getting the best out of the players.

It begs the question, why have we AGAIN failed to mount a title challenge. If we can beat the mancs and Chelsea in the cups why can we not beat them in the league. Cups are different...... why? Play the fkn game like a cup tie.

All the anti- rafas don't seem to acknowledge the great job Rafa has done of winning us BIG cups while rebuilding the team. 3 big finals in three years is bloody good all things considered.

My main problem is I don't see things changing. Rafa is not going to rotate less, he is still going to play people where he thinks is best rather than where the player prefers playing. He is still going to put out teams that seem more concerned with nutralising our opponents rather than concentrating on our strengths. Crazy formations arn't suddenly going to disappear, but hopefully Kuyt might.

I personally don't believe Rafa will ever win the league with us. Plenty of cups but not the title. He makes too many mistakes to ever have us challenging. He treats the team like a chess board, thinking he can win games by tactics and outmanouvering the other team rather than by the efforts and skills of his players. The more decisions/gambles you make, the more chance there is of one being wrong. The more changes you make to the team again increases the chances that the balance might not be quite right.

People come to Rafa's defence by saying that this is the first season where he has had the squad to challenge, yet seem to forget that 2 seasons ago we achieved our record points (without ever challenging) and have taken two big steps back since then, even though we have invested heavily in new players.

The reason I am so confused is I don't see how you can EVER justify sacking a manager with his cup record over the past 3 seasons ,yet I honestly don't believe he will ever win us the title. (maybe when Fergie and Wenger retire?)

[Bad Bob]

Well if he wanted the league, why bring Torres, Gerrard and Carra off in a game right before a european game?
If he wanted the league, why does he still rotate when it's obvious it doesn't work?
If he wanted the league, why drop Torres for the Portsmouth game?
If he wanted the league, why are we 17 fu.cking points behind already?

.

We were 3-1 down, he couldn't see them making any more of a difference in the remaining 18 minutes, having not made a difference in the first 72. The importance of that particluar CL game was the difference between the Club earning an additional £10m or so, and i suppose at the time his job depended on it, oh how selfish of him.

Rotation has not worked or team formation has not worked? Many, me included, think rotation can, and does work, its the formations that have hurt us. You see in his experience his methods have worked, two league titles would point to that. Nobody can prove that an alternative method would have worked any better.

Torres was carrying a knock, well documented but also well ignored here. He kept him on the bench only to risk putting Torres on if the situation was dire, as it turned out.

We are 17 points behind because our team is weaker that our rivals simple as. The cr@p about the managers position and the uncertainty behind the scenes would also hinder the performances, again a simple and obvious conclusion.

I ASK YOU AGAIN DO YOU REALLY, NOW THINK HARD, REALLY THINK RAFA DOES NOT WANT TO WIN THE LEAGUE?

He doesn't want the kudos, and legendary status that would be bestowed on him? The recognition that he has yet again broken a financial duopoly? No ofcourse not, why would he indeed.

Well 3-1 down or not, it still proved he wasn't interested in trying to make a comeback because we had europe coming up next.

Rotation won him two league titles in spain, contrary to what you might think Liverpool play in England. And as far as I can remember dropping your best players and playing around with formations and different players every week hasn't won a league title in England. I may be wrong of course, but I doubt it.

Jamie Carragher has played over 500 games, do you think everyone of them he was 100% because I doubt it. Carrying a knock or not, that early in a season when you're STILL in a title chase, your best players must play.

We're 17 points behind because we drop points to sh!t sides like Birmingham and Wigan at home, and the reason we drop points is because this "tactical genius" can't work out a way to break sides down when they put 11 men behind the ball.

So I've thought long and hard, and I don't recall saying Benitez doesn't WANT the league, but it's not his number 1 priority, whatever you, he or anyone else would lead me to believe. His number 1 priority has been and always will be Europe, which will be proven in the Inter Milan game. Do you think he'll rest Gerrard or Torres for that game and make a strong push for 4th? I can't see it meself. I can however see him dropping Torres and/or Gerrard for the FA Cup tie against Barnsley in time for the Inter game.

On the Reading game, I didn't love the 'throw in the towel' move either but given what we know now about the owners' approach to Klinsmann behind the scenes, I can understand where Rafa was coming from.  I guarantee you that the owners made it very clear to Rafa that his job depended on getting out of the CL group and I equally guarantee you that that was behind his substitutions at Reading.

[god_bless_john_houlding]

Well if he wanted the league, why bring Torres, Gerrard and Carra off in a game right before a european game?
If he wanted the league, why does he still rotate when it's obvious it doesn't work?
If he wanted the league, why drop Torres for the Portsmouth game?
If he wanted the league, why are we 17 fu.cking points behind already?

.

We were 3-1 down, he couldn't see them making any more of a difference in the remaining 18 minutes, having not made a difference in the first 72. The importance of that particluar CL game was the difference between the Club earning an additional £10m or so, and i suppose at the time his job depended on it, oh how selfish of him.

Rotation has not worked or team formation has not worked? Many, me included, think rotation can, and does work, its the formations that have hurt us. You see in his experience his methods have worked, two league titles would point to that. Nobody can prove that an alternative method would have worked any better.

Torres was carrying a knock, well documented but also well ignored here. He kept him on the bench only to risk putting Torres on if the situation was dire, as it turned out.

We are 17 points behind because our team is weaker that our rivals simple as. The cr@p about the managers position and the uncertainty behind the scenes would also hinder the performances, again a simple and obvious conclusion.

I ASK YOU AGAIN DO YOU REALLY, NOW THINK HARD, REALLY THINK RAFA DOES NOT WANT TO WIN THE LEAGUE?

He doesn't want the kudos, and legendary status that would be bestowed on him? The recognition that he has yet again broken a financial duopoly? No ofcourse not, why would he indeed.

Well 3-1 down or not, it still proved he wasn't interested in trying to make a comeback because we had europe coming up next.

Rotation won him two league titles in spain, contrary to what you might think Liverpool play in England. And as far as I can remember dropping your best players and playing around with formations and different players every week hasn't won a league title in England. I may be wrong of course, but I doubt it.

Jamie Carragher has played over 500 games, do you think everyone of them he was 100% because I doubt it. Carrying a knock or not, that early in a season when you're STILL in a title chase, your best players must play.

We're 17 points behind because we drop points to sh!t sides like Birmingham and Wigan at home, and the reason we drop points is because this "tactical genius" can't work out a way to break sides down when they put 11 men behind the ball.

So I've thought long and hard, and I don't recall saying Benitez doesn't WANT the league, but it's not his number 1 priority, whatever you, he or anyone else would lead me to believe. His number 1 priority has been and always will be Europe, which will be proven in the Inter Milan game. Do you think he'll rest Gerrard or Torres for that game and make a strong push for 4th? I can't see it meself. I can however see him dropping Torres and/or Gerrard for the FA Cup tie against Barnsley in time for the Inter game.

On the Reading game, I didn't love the 'throw in the towel' move either but given what we know now about the owners' approach to Klinsmann behind the scenes, I can understand where Rafa was coming from.  I guarantee you that the owners made it very clear to Rafa that his job depended on getting out of the CL group and I equally guarantee you that that was behind his substitutions at Reading.

Well that just goes to show how much he loves the club. If he loved the club that much, and loved the fans that much he'd be all in favour of the league, not giving a toss about the owners and what they want. Trust me, speaking as a fella who's lived in Liverpool for 40 years, stood on the Kop for 35 and been deprived of a league title for the last 18, any manager who could give us the league title, would be labelled a god by the fans. If we won the league, contary to what the owners want, Benitez wouldn't be sacked for another 20 years. The fans wouldn't allow him to be sacked if we won the league under his guidance. And people might say well it doesn't matter what the fans think, if the owners dont want you then you're gone, but that's bollox in all honesty. The owners would have to keep Benitez on in fear of a mutinty, if and only if he was to win the league. The fact that we won't win it under him, means we might as well get rid of him.