Liverpool FC Forum

[bigmick]

He was unlucky with the first yellow, but the second was plain daft. It was daft on every level in that he was looking at Jolian Lescott breaking beyond the midfield with the ball, for an Everton team who for the third match in succession didn't have a striker on the pitch. We're not talking Ronaldo breaking forward with Man Utd players flooding into the spaces beyond him, it was Jolean Lescott.

I've said a few times that I think he has it in him to be a good player, although whether or not it'll be in the Premiership is another thing. If we're actually serious about him becoming one though, the first thing we need to do is decide where we want him to play. He replaced Masherano last night, but then it seemed to me that for much of the match Alonso was detailed to play deeper than him. This didn't do wonders for Xabi by any means from what I could see, and it looks confusing to Lucas as well. Against Wigan we had the sight of Masherano bursting forward with the ball and Lucas covering in behind. It looks like we haven't really decided yet, and we need to.

My hunch would be he's more of an attacking midfielder than a defensive one, and I'd use him as an understudy to particularly Gerrard, and partly Alonso. I think we should be telling him that he's going to be getting on for the last 20 in a few matches, and what we're looking for is a positive contribution in the last third. That means goals, offensive passes, getting into the box, shots etc. He's also not bad in the sir for a little fella, and i think if we clearly defined his role he'd have more of a chance. Not for the first time amongst our players, he looks like he's not exactly relishing the role as an "option" or "possibility".

[GYBS]

yeah you got a very good point there - at the moment he is proberly filling in where it is needed to give masher or xabi a rest so his all round game is ok but it would be good to see him being concentrated on one area . obviously not the deep covering midfielder as his tackling is awful but someone playing a lot higher as a few times while playing he has made some good runs into the box and got himself space but been denied by a handball and some great goalkeeping. still time for him yet

[bigmick]

And heimdall kuyt showed last night his worth to the team - the gus work rate was immense and he got involved all game long - his touch was very good just took once option wrong when it was 3 against 2 .

Kuyt worked hard, probably even harder than normal but there is more to it than that. While admitting that he had one of his better games of late, we fairly clearly are having a problem offensively at the moment.

We've now played everton three times in quick succession, and in all honesty we haven't really managed to carve them open more than once or twice in the whole three games. Last night for instance we barely made a chance worthy of the name.

Now who's fault is it (amongst the players I mean) because clearly something is awry? As always it's a combination of things, and the main culprit last night was the enforced withdrawal of Gerrard. It's worth noting that we scored two goals in three games against Everton (plus half an hours extra time) and Gerrard scored them both. One was a shot from 35 yards, and the other a well worked move with Torres.

My point is that at some stage, some of the other players who play in advanced positions have got to take some responsiblity for the fact we are currently easy to defend against. It's not just Kuyt (although it partly is for sure), but Riera's form has also worryingly tailed off these last couple of weeks. Torres still is showing signs of not quite being 100% fit to me, while even Alonso last night was nowhere near up to speed.

My point is that although Dirk worked hard, and generally does, at some point we are going to need some more than that. That point may actually have been a few weeks back for all we know, we'll be able to reassess come the end of the season. We are going to need to do much more collectively than work hard over the next few weeks, it's approaching now or never time.

[Ciggy]

Kuyt, Alonso and Torres looked like they where all running with treacle on their boots last night, they looked done in.

[Ace Ventura]

Kuyt, Alonso and Torres looked like they where all running with treacle on their boots last night, they looked done in.

I thought Torres either looked injured or dead on his feet and that was from the first half onwards.

I would of taken him off earlier as he was offering nothing and looked as i say injured or just absolutely done in.

[account deleted by request]

Kuyt, Alonso and Torres looked like they where all running with treacle on their boots last night, they looked done in.

I think Torres has played too many hard games since his injury and it caught up with him last night. Sometimes when recovering from an injury the player actually does more tiring rehabilitation work than normal training would be as well.

[roberto green]

To be honest there were a lot of worse players on the field than Lucas last night who I thought had an alright game and was unlucky on receiving his first yellow.The likes of Torres and Alonso had worse games so look at them before we all start making Lucas the scapegoat as usual.

I'm sure there is a better player ready to come out in him but I think we the fans have done the young lads confidence in and that's one of the reasons he doesn't try to do more when on the ball.

[Redman in wales]

And heimdall kuyt showed last night his worth to the team - the gus work rate was immense and he got involved all game long - his touch was very good just took once option wrong when it was 3 against 2 .

Kuyt worked hard, probably even harder than normal but there is more to it than that. While admitting that he had one of his better games of late, we fairly clearly are having a problem offensively at the moment.

We've now played everton three times in quick succession, and in all honesty we haven't really managed to carve them open more than once or twice in the whole three games. Last night for instance we barely made a chance worthy of the name.

Now who's fault is it (amongst the players I mean) because clearly something is awry? As always it's a combination of things, and the main culprit last night was the enforced withdrawal of Gerrard. It's worth noting that we scored two goals in three games against Everton (plus half an hours extra time) and Gerrard scored them both. One was a shot from 35 yards, and the other a well worked move with Torres.

My point is that at some stage, some of the other players who play in advanced positions have got to take some responsiblity for the fact we are currently easy to defend against. It's not just Kuyt (although it partly is for sure), but Riera's form has also worryingly tailed off these last couple of weeks. Torres still is showing signs of not quite being 100% fit to me, while even Alonso last night was nowhere near up to speed.

My point is that although Dirk worked hard, and generally does, at some point we are going to need some more than that. That point may actually have been a few weeks back for all we know, we'll be able to reassess come the end of the season. We are going to need to do much more collectively than work hard over the next few weeks, it's approaching now or never time.

I think this probably needs debating in the kuyt thread - but its something that's becoming more and more obvious. For all kuyts hard work, team ethic and play - he offers very little in terms of goal threat, and when we play 4-2-3-1 (or however you want to call it - an offensive goal threat needs to come from the wings.

Anyway - that’s a discussion for another thread.

It seems most of us agree about lucas not being a waste of space, but more a lad who's had a few good games, a few bad games, showed some signs of promise - but needs to use his head and engage his brain a lot more than he does right now. - Some of that may come with experience, but can we afford that when he is giving away penalties at wigan and getting sent off against everton?

Bigmick picked up on the fact that he got his 2nd yellow for a challenge on lescott in evertons half. How silly is that like mick said, its not as if it was ronaldo, or even arteta striding forward… it was silly, and he needs to think a lot more, on and off the ball oif he is going to have regular starts alongside Xabi and Mash

[jedwards]

Lucas is an ok squad player but there is no way he should be getting as many games as he is, same goes for Kuyt, it's time for rafa to take a bit of a gamble and give some of the up an coming youngsters a go, you never know, the next Stevie G or Fowler might be there waiting to emerge if just given a chance. he could for example let one of the yongsters start a game and if they are looking out of their depth sub them or sub them on when we are controlling the game, not that that has happened in a while now. 

Lucas had a promising start when joint LFC, but this season he seems to lose all promising potential, as it seems that Benitez is trying hard to convert him to a negative defensive player, the kind of players Benitez adores. He has become a square and backward passer, very rarely create a positive passes, goal shy, bad time tackler.
I do think that Plessis is more composed, clam, and clever player than Lucas, but Benitez never give him his fare share chances in the first team, or any other promising youngsters in the squad.

[Rush Job]

To be honest there were a lot of worse players on the field than Lucas last night who I thought had an alright game and was unlucky on receiving his first yellow.The likes of Torres and Alonso had worse games so look at them before we all start making Lucas the scapegoat as usual.

I'm sure there is a better player ready to come out in him but I think we the fans have done the young lads confidence in and that's one of the reasons he doesn't try to do more when on the ball.

Yeh said it myself.
Good post bigmick, with SG injured we will see more of Lucas so we need to sort out his possition and IMO he`s a much better player receiving the ball in the final 3rd ish than making the play from deep where he just pops it back and to the side.
And FWIW surely we are better playing yosi behind Torres than Kuyt while SG is out, he`s one of the few players who have looked to have had a cutting edge in the last few games, get him behind Torres.

[red187]

I just think we are expecting too much of some of our younger squad players, and I have seen Rafas trust in them compared to Houlliers in Biscan or Cheyrou, none of us supporters got excited over any of Houlliers signings the way we did over Babel and Lucas.

Lucas is the golden boot winner in Brazil and I don't need to go into the pedigree of previous winners of that award but I will, Zico, Romario, Kaka and Carlos Tevez to name a few.

. Babel was probably far and away one of the best players in the under 21 European's in 2007 (I know for a fact I was seriously pleased to have snatched him from under Wengers nose)

When did we all of a sudden expect players of 21-22 to be world beaters, kids who have only had one real season to settle into the Premier league to dominate matches and be the finished articles, Stevie G wasn't a superstar when he first stepped out at Anfield and Jamie Carragher certainly wasn't.

For these two kids to be in our first team squad, playing more than they don't and to be automatic inclusions in their national squads says that they must have the talent.

Maybe the problem is with us, maybe the pressure we put on them is stiffling their progression, maybe some of our supporters forget the fact that they are so young or that they have only been here for 18 months, maybe those supporters who booed Lucas should hang their heads, maybe from now on we do what liverpool supporters have always done, back our own players to the hilt.

[Sir Roger]

I just think we are expecting too much of some of our younger squad players, and I have seen Rafas trust in them compared to Houlliers in Biscan or Cheyrou, none of us supporters got excited over any of Houlliers signings the way we did over Babel and Lucas.

Lucas is the golden boot winner in Brazil and I don't need to go into the pedigree of previous winners of that award but I will, Zico, Romario, Kaka and Carlos Tevez to name a few.

. Babel was probably far and away one of the best players in the under 21 European's in 2007 (I know for a fact I was seriously pleased to have snatched him from under Wengers nose)

When did we all of a sudden expect players of 21-22 to be world beaters, kids who have only had one real season to settle into the Premier league to dominate matches and be the finished articles, Stevie G wasn't a superstar when he first stepped out at Anfield and Jamie Carragher certainly wasn't.

For these two kids to be in our first team squad, playing more than they don't and to be automatic inclusions in their national squads says that they must have the talent.

Maybe the problem is with us, maybe the pressure we put on them is stiffling their progression, maybe some of our supporters forget the fact that they are so young or that they have only been here for 18 months, maybe those supporters who booed Lucas should hang their heads, maybe from now on we do what liverpool supporters have always done, back our own players to the hilt.

I have to be honest
Ive watched the lad for a while now and I have to say I dont care if hes won the world cup single handed he is not a good player. Certainly not good enough if we are serious about winning the league. People talk about his best position. Wherever he plays he shouldnt be giving the ball away so cheaply or free kicks away so frequently. Has he got potential? I dont know. But on his last couple of outings (giving penalty away, getting sent off) he has shown his worth. Naive is a kind way of saying thick.
There was absolutely no need for him to make that challenge on lescott. Didnt he know he already had a yellow? Didnt he care? We were already at a disadvantage and he made it worse. If he doesnt understand this then he is a worse liability than I already think he is.

[red187]

I honestly think you are being harse on the lad, is it the fact that he is Brazilian, would a young English player get as much abuse.

In the last two games has he made mistakes, certainly but once Gerrard went of last night he seemed to be one of the only players willing to take up any slack, his passing was sharp and crisp and his movement off the ball was always trying to make space for the man in posession.

The penalty at Wigan was another bad mistake but yet again he was performing well in that game.

As for saying he hasn't shown any signs of being a good player I think your wrong I have seen enough in the Arsenal game last season and the Newcastle game this year to suggest that if he can settle into the english game and its physicality (which he showed signs of last night, couple of very nasty tackles he was on the receiving end of he just brushed them of) he will prove to be a shrewd buy at 5 million.

I could understanding calling him thick if he was 25yrs but he isn't, football is all about developing the mental side of the game and that takes years to come to terms with.

Again I'll go back to Gerrard, now I'm in no way comparing Lucas with Gerrard but I think i'm right in thinking that Gerrard got sent of in a derby for one of the worst tackles i've seen when he was only breaking into the team, in fact didn't he get sent of last year at Anfield or maybe the year before in a derby for a pretty naive tackle.

It happens, we plee for our foreign imports to show some passion when it comes to the derby but when one does he is called thick, give the kid a chance to grow up and become the decent footballer he could be. Its unfortunate that we aren't in the position of United or Arsenal were we can carry young players in our first team but thats not the boys fault

[Sir Roger]

I honestly think you are being harse on the lad, is it the fact that he is Brazilian, would a young English player get as much abuse.

In the last two games has he made mistakes, certainly but once Gerrard went of last night he seemed to be one of the only players willing to take up any slack, his passing was sharp and crisp and his movement off the ball was always trying to make space for the man in posession.

The penalty at Wigan was another bad mistake but yet again he was performing well in that game.

As for saying he hasn't shown any signs of being a good player I think your wrong I have seen enough in the Arsenal game last season and the Newcastle game this year to suggest that if he can settle into the english game and its physicality (which he showed signs of last night, couple of very nasty tackles he was on the receiving end of he just brushed them of) he will prove to be a shrewd buy at 5 million.

I could understanding calling him thick if he was 25yrs but he isn't, football is all about developing the mental side of the game and that takes years to come to terms with.

Again I'll go back to Gerrard, now I'm in no way comparing Lucas with Gerrard but I think i'm right in thinking that Gerrard got sent of in a derby for one of the worst tackles i've seen in the modern game when he was only breaking into the team, in fact didn't he get sent of last year at Anfield or maybe the year before in a derby for a pretty naive tackle.

It happens, we plee for our foreign imports to show some passion when it comes to the derby but when one does he is called thick, give the kid a chance to grow up and become the decent footballer he could be. Its unfortunate that we aren't in the position of United or Arsenal were we can carry young players in our first team but thats not the boys fault

How long shall we give him?

[puroresu]

I just think we are expecting too much of some of our younger squad players, and I have seen Rafas trust in them compared to Houlliers in Biscan or Cheyrou, none of us supporters got excited over any of Houlliers signings the way we did over Babel and Lucas.

Lucas is the golden boot winner in Brazil and I don't need to go into the pedigree of previous winners of that award but I will, Zico, Romario, Kaka and Carlos Tevez to name a few.

. Babel was probably far and away one of the best players in the under 21 European's in 2007 (I know for a fact I was seriously pleased to have snatched him from under Wengers nose)

When did we all of a sudden expect players of 21-22 to be world beaters, kids who have only had one real season to settle into the Premier league to dominate matches and be the finished articles, Stevie G wasn't a superstar when he first stepped out at Anfield and Jamie Carragher certainly wasn't.

For these two kids to be in our first team squad, playing more than they don't and to be automatic inclusions in their national squads says that they must have the talent.

Maybe the problem is with us, maybe the pressure we put on them is stiffling their progression, maybe some of our supporters forget the fact that they are so young or that they have only been here for 18 months, maybe those supporters who booed Lucas should hang their heads, maybe from now on we do what liverpool supporters have always done, back our own players to the hilt.

Just doing the basics would be nice.  i.e. more times than not passing the ball to a team mate.  Lucas gives the ball away cheaply far to often.