Liverpool FC Forum

[Owzat]

Normal service has resumed, I'm afraid.  Very poor from the lad today and he makes Masch poorer whenever they play together.

He was poor alright but it wasn't even only down to him alone.. Noone playied well and even Reina had a shaky game.

Noone in midfield or attack had a really good game, in fact any one of them could have been subbed. Lucas was poor and Mascherano was poor - and I don't blame Lucas for Mascherano being poor when they play together. Mascherano is senior and the problem is neither is a playmaker like Alonso.

The problem was Rafa cocked up bigtime with the formation and his tactics. He is/was incapable of changing it and his substitutions were typically ineffective. I'm more and more coming to the conclusion he doesn't want to bring Keane on and his substitutions seem to reflect that unwillingness in terms of changes of formation (doesn't do it) and bringing Keane on (doesn't do it)

Two games against Stoke, zero goals and I believe Rafa used only four substitutions across the two games. Why Torres didn't start I do not know, no point saving him for games later when we need to win games NOW. What made it worse were we were second best for a lot of the game, Mascherano hardly controlled midfield and the whole team gave possession away to a team that is/was in the drop zone.

Hate to say it, but didn't Rafa make SIX changes from the FA Cup tie at Preston? OK one was enforced, but are we not rotating and that can't help? The only way I could see to lever Lucas (excuse the slight pun on his name) out of the side would have been to play 4-4-2 with Gerrard alongside Mascherano. Could have been the first substitution at half time, not that Rafa did anything then - to bring on Keane for Lucas and move to a 4-4-2. Rafa did nothing, 1/10 for his tactics from start to finish

[kazza]

I wander if anyone actually watches football. The whole team played poorly (except maybe Sami), many poor touches and many poor passes by almost all including Gerrard, Torres and Pepe. It was cold and they were big and physical and the ref allowed them to play physical (I saw many fouls not called, maybe something to do with "Raffa's rant"). They defended by parking the bus in front of goal and our main passer (Alonso) was not playing. It has nothing to do with Lucas or Kuyte! Get a grip people. Why is it so many on here think they know better than all the professionals.

[Owzat]

In games like that where one side goes for physical, you need a strong ref. I think the ref let the physical side go a bit and the decisions tended to go with their physical approach more. What I mean is some will be stricter on the physical side of the game, it is a physical game not a "contact sport" as some like to think, but if refs allow shoulder charges that send players flying go then it is intimidation. I think they stretched the boundaries of acceptable yesterday, we played badly and possibly as a consequence of that approach. I also think the FA should cut out the wiping of the ball for long throws, it not only wastes time but why should they get effectively a spanking new condition ball for their own benefits? Decrap should have to throw the ball as is. Like I said, maybe Rafa's rant was detrimental and we got a homer.

I bet fergie would have been in the ref's ear about the ball cleaning and physical side at half time, I don't blame fergie on that one. And maybe about the missed offside call that nearly cost us, just making sure the ref gets the decisions right As long as that is all is said, I suspect fergie has long since passed a brown paper bag in their direction (before the matchday)

[milou]

I wander if anyone actually watches football. The whole team played poorly (except maybe Sami), many poor touches and many poor passes by almost all including Gerrard, Torres and Pepe. It was cold and they were big and physical and the ref allowed them to play physical (I saw many fouls not called, maybe something to do with "Raffa's rant"). They defended by parking the bus in front of goal and our main passer (Alonso) was not playing. It has nothing to do with Lucas or Kuyte! Get a grip people. Why is it so many on here think they know better than all the professionals.

Kazza mate, I second your sentiment that our poor performance wasn't just down to Kuyt or Lucas or any player in particular. I do think everyone played badly.

No doubt some sounded more hostile than the rest, but many people on here (me included) think we should have STARTED with better players.. I cannot think of a logical explanation why 50millions worth of striking talent must start from the bench!

Even if Rafa must "mess" with the starting line-up, then SURELY it isn't too much to at least ask for his objectivity to admit the line-up wasn't working, then having the guts/urgency to CHANGE things when the game was so obviously crying out loud for some intervention?! Remember how we swapped our 2 fullbacks for 4 wingers earlier in the season.. and WON?

But we ended the game with the same formation and one UNUSED substitution.

TBH, I am not most upset with his line-up or the fact that we didn't win.. I am most upset bcos rafa did not do enough to change when there is an obvious need to do so.

If he didn't even see the need, while the whole world does.. then it is even more "unforgivable".

[Owzat]

Some on here simpy target one or two names to blame, even Gerrard was poor by his standards so why isn't he blamed since he's got more ability (allegedly) than Lucas and Kuyt put together?

People talk about Keane not getting a run in the side, how about Riera getting 90 mins? People say Keane should have continued his run and played against Newcastle, anyone considered Riera may fade in games because he knows he won't get the full 90 mins? Point being is they consider the psychological impact of Rafa's actions re Keane, but maybe not so much others :-

Riera - subbed almost as a predetermined measure practically every game
Lucas - disliked by some fans to the extent he has been booed, knows he won't get a lot of chances so couldn't that have a negative impact on him psychologically?
Carra - may/probably prefers playing CB, may have to force himself to be positive as it isn't his nature
Kuyt - aware that he's not scoring goals playing as a striker, has some solace in the manager's faith in him, but it must play on his mind.
Benayoun - has spoken out in the media, knows he won't be a 1st choice and aware his performances haven't been good enough and he's going to be used wide
Babel - must be aware he's likely to be a used sub a lot more than a starter and that his performances are generally substandard. Also, like Benayoun, he may well feel he should play on the right or up front instead of on the left

Do all of the above not have cause to be affected psychologically by Rafa's treatment/use of them or their "confidence" affected by what happens on the pitch? Torres may well wonder why he didn't start having come on and scored against PNE. So Keane isn't alone in not being a regular or used entirely in his preferred role

In fairness to Gerrard he must have his impending court appearance playing on his mind, but he didn't play that well bar a couple of shots late on that maybe over-rode some people's memory of what went before

[heimdall]

I'm not blaming individual players, I'm blaming poor team selections and tactics, i.e I'm blaming Rafa. Mind you he is the one that now must fel lik a complete tit, specially if Manure win today, but perpas his natural arrogance and ignorance will see him through any pain.

[akumaface]

Lucas is who he is (shlt) and we can't expect anything more since he can't offered more than what he can do. He put in there by rafa and more likely this is going to keep happening. Just kind of wondering we actually don't need Lucas in a game like this. Rafa should have expected the same tactic from Stoke. Putting SG in the middle makes more sense as he can gather speed going forward. It was hard for our players to turn up front. The problem is Rafa got it wrong again the second time against Stoke for Christ sake.... If we don't have anyone better than Lucas in the reserve, we are doomed....

[kazza]

I'm not blaming individual players, I'm blaming poor team selections and tactics, i.e I'm blaming Rafa. Mind you he is the one that now must fel lik a complete tit, specially if Manure win today, but perpas his natural arrogance and ignorance will see him through any pain.

The only option that might have changed the outcome considering the type of game it was and the type of opposition we were playing against was Babel and he was put on. Yossi was roughed up out of the game so there was no one else.

Keane would not have made a difference as he does not play well with his back to goal and that is what would have happened. Another central stiker to play in the middle when there was already nine players in the box would not have helped.

They were big, very physical and in the players faces, Utd barely squeaked by against them playing the same system. They needed a Stoke player sent of before they could score. The ref was letting rough play go maybe for revenge for Raffa saying the refs and FA are Fergie's bitches (which they are clearly)

[shakey]

Cant believe this wasnt added too after his pants display on weds 

[GYBS]

he was doing ok until the penalty was given against him - shame it ruined a half decent performance by him- silly mistake

[account deleted by request]

Lucas needs to up his game and impose himself more. I think there is a decent player trying to get out, maybe he just needs more time or confidence before we see the best of him.

[stmichael]

I suppose a relevant question is whether Lucas (irrespective of his nationality) any better than Guthrie who we let go for peanuts?

I've always been a big fan of Guthrie, as every year I saw him play he was significantly better than the year before. Some players stand still and stop progressing, but Guthrie hasn't done that yet.

I think the main criticism of Lucas in recent games has been that he's started giving a ridiculous number of fouls away which have cost us. You don't just become a bad player overnight. For me he was arguably man of the match against Newcastle.

[milou]

You don't just become a bad player overnight.

Apparently you can IF you are played differently from where you previously succeeded in. There must be some significant differences in the way he is now being asked to play.

Lucas was the Brazilian footballer of the year — the same honour previously won by the likes of Zico, Falcao, Careca, Alex, Romario, Kaká and Tevez!

Same goes for Morientes, Kuyt, Cisse, Keane who were all top strikers prior to joining Liverpool... But all of them just "forgot" how to score overnight!

[Alex G.]

Is really Leiva a football player???

[Madmax]

You don't just become a bad player overnight.

Apparently you can IF you are played differently from where you previously succeeded in. There must be some significant differences in the way he is now being asked to play.

Lucas was the Brazilian footballer of the year — the same honour previously won by the likes of Zico, Falcao, Careca, Alex, Romario, Kaká and Tevez!

Same goes for Morientes, Kuyt, Cisse, Keane who were all top strikers prior to joining Liverpool... But all of them just "forgot" how to score overnight!

Would like to know why is it that these players dont perform at liverpool??

Is the because of pressure playing for a big club??
Playing out of position?
Not adjusting to the dimension of the team??

I guess for some we could say playing out of position but dont understand others.